I guess the "regulations" are starting.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Robino1

Resting in Peace
ECF Veteran
Sep 7, 2012
27,447
110,404
Treasure Coast, Florida

Racehorse

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 12, 2012
11,230
28,254
USA midwest
I agree but the root cause seems to be "anticipated FDA regulations".

I call that smart business.

There are really no consumer products that are injested into the body, in history, that haven't been regulated in some respect.

I have no idea why vapers take it so personally, the supplements industry went thru this, and they are making $$ hand over foot still.....hasn't affected them at all. But there were some things they had to change, and as a consumer, I was glad. Just because stuff is minerals, vitamins, herbs, etc. doesn't mean it's made under clean conditions, can't be contaminated, etc.

All products for human consumption usually have batch numbers. Why is this important? Because if ever there IS contamination or something, it can be traced by the vendor/manufacturer, and recalled and it stops a lot of people en masse who could end up very sick, or even dead.

I just always thought that it was "pie in the sky" thinking that certain regulations wouldn't hit this industry.......unless anyone thought for some reason we should be *exempt*? ALL other products for human consumption are regulated.
 
Just got this email.

Dear Virgin Vapor Customers,.

I write you today with news that may.disappoint some but is a.positive and.inevitable step Virgin Vapor must take in order to meet current and future regulatory.requirements for all e.liquid manufacturers..Starting January 15th, we will no longer.be offering custom mixes. This includes customized and personal flavors, extra flavor.shots, customized VG/PG mixes, or custom nicotine levels.
Well that just sucks! If this truly is the future, does it mean that we will be relegated to predefined approved (by some pencil-pushing bureaucrat) pg/vg/nic/flavor blends? If so, I guess the DIY production will skyrocket, unless of course (and they will) regulate the availability of pg/vg/nic concentrate. :(

This trend (if there is one) flies in the face of reason. Cigarettes, a product that WILL kill you if used as they're meant to be, are still freely and ubiquitously available (albeit heavily taxed), and now they try to put the brakes on a (much) healthier, or at least less dangerous, alternative? It blows my mind!
 

jwibbity

Full Member
Jun 12, 2014
22
8
Kannapolis, NC
The requirements (if approved) will force companies to submit paperwork for each product they produce. So if you have 30 different flavors, at 6, 12, 18 and 24mg, that's 120 forms (with the associated fees) that has to be submitted. And no deviation will be permitted once approved, so custom orders (extra flavor shots, etc.) will be a thing of the past.

mt baker vapor would be crippled
 

skoony

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jul 31, 2013
5,692
9,953
70
saint paul,mn,usa
I call that smart business.

There are really no consumer products that are injested into the body, in history, that haven't been regulated in some respect.

I have no idea why vapers take it so personally, the supplements industry went thru this, and they are making $$ hand over foot still.....hasn't affected them at all. But there were some things they had to change, and as a consumer, I was glad. Just because stuff is minerals, vitamins, herbs, etc. doesn't mean it's made under clean conditions, can't be contaminated, etc.

All products for human consumption usually have batch numbers. Why is this important? Because if ever there IS contamination or something, it can be traced by the vendor/manufacturer, and recalled and it stops a lot of people en masse who could end up very sick, or even dead.

I just always thought that it was "pie in the sky" thinking that certain regulations wouldn't hit this industry.......unless anyone thought for some reason we should be *exempt*? ALL other products for human consumption are regulated.

all products fall under health,safety and manufacturing standards which
are benign compared to what the FDA would require if these are considered tobacco
products.
regards
mike
 

Oberon75

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 26, 2014
1,771
1,382
Roseville, Mi, USA
I call that smart business.

There are really no consumer products that are injested into the body, in history, that haven't been regulated in some respect.

I have no idea why vapers take it so personally, the supplements industry went thru this, and they are making $$ hand over foot still.....hasn't affected them at all. But there were some things they had to change, and as a consumer, I was glad. Just because stuff is minerals, vitamins, herbs, etc. doesn't mean it's made under clean conditions, can't be contaminated, etc.

All products for human consumption usually have batch numbers. Why is this important? Because if ever there IS contamination or something, it can be traced by the vendor/manufacturer, and recalled and it stops a lot of people en masse who could end up very sick, or even dead.

I just always thought that it was "pie in the sky" thinking that certain regulations wouldn't hit this industry.......unless anyone thought for some reason we should be *exempt*? ALL other products for human consumption are regulated.
They aren't regulated to this kind of extent though. We don't mind fair regulation but what's being proposed would turn the vape industry into what the beer industry was before Jimmy Carter deregulated it in 1979. The future of our industry would be similar to the bland, fizzy, yellow lager that beer drinkers had to put up with for decades.

Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition
 

VapinWolf

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 14, 2013
402
475
54
Grand Bay, Alabama USA
This doesn't look well for the juice needy market...kinda has me thinking back about a year ago and the negative remarks I received when I suggested maybe building a stash and preparing to DIY ourselves...paranoia...I believe that is what I was accused of then.

+1 Andrea (my youngest flower blossom is Andria Jolene so you get another +1 for having a good name) ;)

I checked with my supplier (rather unsavory tattoo-covered freak with highly rebellious attitude towards goobermint in general-goes by the moniker 'VapinWolf') and was relieved to learn he has no plans of following any goobermint prescribed juice making regulations and also presented a rather aggressive raised center finger directed towards goobermint for general purposes.

He also suggested anyone serious about keeping their vape do the same. Fight regulations which restrict the availability to the free market while stockpiling for your personal future if the worst comes to be....

and to those who laughed when many of us suggested this a year ago, I am sure I am not alone when I say sometimes I hate it when I am right :(
 

Racehorse

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 12, 2012
11,230
28,254
USA midwest
Maybe I'm a person not given to gloom and doom and seeing the boogie man at every corner.

Why?

Perspective is the most important thing to have. If you talk to people who are dealing with chronic, disabling illnesses, or even vets coming back without limbs, for instance, you start to understand this------ why some are thriving, and some are not (emotionally, spiritually, physically, etc.)

The ones who trive focus on what they can do, what they do have, what their possibilities are. The stuff that they can't do, they put on an eraser board then erase it......because it's OFF THE TABLE for them. There is no point focussing on it because it's a total waste of time.

I bring this up because I see less and less of a healthy positive PERSPECTIVE going on here. It's all boogie man, shadows, unfairness, anger, fear, what if I can't do X, Y and Z, what am I not gonna have, etc.

The reality is, there is still plenty "left" when you start to change your perspective. It's unfortunate that this isn't taught as one of the most vital survival techniques for human beings. It would make for a healthier emotional state for most people. A lot less stress, and a lot less attitudes and thinking processes that really end up hurting people's health overall.





it requires expensive, precise measuring/dispensing equipment in order to hit the mix correctly every time.

If enacted as proposed the custom juice market will collapse

I don't believe that is true. Thousands of vendors to buy juice from, 3mg, 0mg. 6mg. even 9mg juice......lots of vendors now do not offer that much of a variety of mg ......mountain oaks has always stuck to that (and they hae always been ahead of the game and yet very profitable) and they only offer 18mg, 12mg and 6mg.

I talked to them last year about that and when you are in a high production environment, it is not really financially feasible to make custom orders (I wanted higher VG than the 70/30 most of their juices are). They explained to me that making ONE small change in a pg/vg ratio has very far reaching effects for a business. They would have to do that across an entire line of juices, and it would affect EVERY recipe for EVERY juice they have......and it really complicates their production costs and shipping schedules, not to mention manpower/employee considerations. As well as the quality control it takes to "re-tweak" juices.

It had nothing to do with the FDA, it was just a good biz decision i.e. maximize profit and keep production costs reasonable so a good price can be passed on to the customer.

So in their case, it was a business decision.....not sure how maximizing profit and properly utilizing employees/staff (a smart business plan) has anything to do with the FDA. :confused:

By shopping around, I can pretty much find any pg/vg ratio and nic level I want. Yeah, sometimes that means leaving a vendor. But that is true for any kind of consumer "tastes".......I don't buy certain clothes, vitamins, shoes, etc. anymore and only shop with companies that make what I WANT. To me, this seems like a pretty normal situation. It is the typical consumer market in a capitalist economic model.

When they can't get at all the juice sources they will ban the euiptment. Kinda hard to DIY, when VAPES are banned.

this has been discussed in so many topics over 2 years and if you believe that equipment will be banned then you also have to believe that flashlights and lithium batteries will be too.

mt baker vapor would be crippled

No, they won't. Right now they offer 6 nicotine strengths, and 5 pg/vg ratios. The very reason they can do that is because they are high volume (cheap prices do that). Their business model is based on high volume. And there are other vendors who don't have that model.

This is true of every business on the planet. Some are high volume, some are very diversified, so that if one segment of their biz isn't a profit center, it is made up for by other departments, etc.

All businesses have to have a certain amount of flexibility. Or they don't survive. and that is true whether they are having to meet regulations, or have to meet transport costs during times when fuel is expensive, blah blah blah.

I have taught and studied business models, remember when Harley Davison almost went out of biz? That was a very interesting situation. They had to make some serious and very painful changes, and when they did, they became one of the healthiest businesses on the planet.

Companies die. In a global marketplace the competition is fierce. More than fierce. And if you are in that marketplace, then you better have very good business plan, very good accountants, lawyers, and advisors. Because with or w/out regulations, there are businesses failing every minute of the day.


I don't agree with a lot of the knee jerking because I don't think some of it is REALISTIC. I'm not talking fair etc. I'm talking the REALISTIC expectations of a person or business who wants to survive in the 21st century.....(that again is where perspective comes in......)

Childproof caps and age requirements were almost a GIVEN, These are just pretty "normative" things in ANY consumer market that deals with human consumption. Yet people are absolutely freaking out about those things. Its really a waste of energy. Sometimes, it pays to deal with "what is". We all have to do that even iin our personal lives, and people who don't.........well......they come to a very bad end. And a very messy life.

I am pro vaping since I vape, but I have never been so naive as to expect some kind of wild-west scenario in an industry that is projected to have many billions of dollars in sales AND that is dealing with human consumption. To me, much of these changes looks a lot like business as usual.

And yes, there are people who are anti regulation in general, (about everything), that's not on the table here, because that is a much larger political battle that won't be won on the vaping stage......because it's not even realistic expectation in the world we actually live in. ;) That would involve changing the entire world and really well beyond the scope of vaping ;) So I'm not even going there with respect to vape products.
 

readeuler

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 17, 2014
1,203
1,945
Ohio, USA
I'm not sure I would place 100% Reliance in this.

Because just like we here on the ECF are Smart enough to Think Up clever Workarounds, so are those who write Regulations at the FDA.

Just say'n.

Aye, Mr. Zoidman, but I think we've got them outnumbered in brainpower ;) We don't vape 9-5, and we don't take days off.

They're relying on perhaps a few hundred regulators, we're relying on tens of thousands of free market participants.

I'm not saying we won't come out unscathed, but we're gonna put up a damn good fight.
 

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,648
1
84,844
So-Cal
Aye, Mr. Zoidman, but I think we've got them outnumbered in brainpower ;) We don't vape 9-5, and we don't take days off.

They're relying on perhaps a few hundred regulators, we're relying on tens of thousands of free market participants.

I'm not saying we won't come out unscathed, but we're gonna put up a damn good fight.

Yes, we do have Tens of Thousands of people who share a Concern for what the Future e-Cigarette Market will look like. But what good is 100,000 people if they Don't Do Anything?

An Example:

How Many people Submitted Pro-Comments to the FDA during the Comment Period? A Couple Thousand? And all of these were Not even Vaper's. Because I got about 10 People who do Not Vape to Submit Pro-Comments. And I was Not Alone in getting Non-Vapers to submit Pro-Comments to the FDA.

This Thread is Going to Generate a Lot of Posts. And a Lot of People are going to View it. And that is a Good Thing. But Until we start to move things Outside of the ECF and start getting Into Action, nothing can change.
 

susanlinda823

Moved On
Oct 15, 2014
0
85
Dallas
  • Deleted by retired1
  • Reason: Unregistered Supplier

DC2

Tootie Puffer
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 21, 2009
24,161
40,974
San Diego

englishmick

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 25, 2014
6,646
36,102
Naptown, Indiana
As a whole e-cigs arent FDA approved, but most liquids are FDA approved. I dont understand why they have to discontinue custom orders, when the products going into the liquids are all FDA approved? I would be worried if the product going into my liquids wasnt approved. Kind of sketchy.

Remember though, the flavorings have been tested and determined to be safe for ingesting, but not for inhaling. And FDA approval wasn't the reason they gave for discontinuing custom orders. They test every batch they produce, and you can't run tests on a single custom bottle.
 

Oberon75

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 26, 2014
1,771
1,382
Roseville, Mi, USA
Remember though, the flavorings have been tested and determined to be safe for ingesting, but not for inhaling. And FDA approval wasn't the reason they gave for discontinuing custom orders. They test every batch they produce, and you can't run tests on a single custom bottle.
Just because the FDA approves something though, that doesn't make it safe. It basically means you can sell almost anything you want. Just as long as you pay the FDA first.

Sent from my HTC One M8 Harman/Kardon edition
 

AndriaD

Reviewer / Blogger
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 24, 2014
21,253
50,807
64
LawrencevilleGA
angryvaper.crypticsites.com
+1 Andrea (my youngest flower blossom is Andria Jolene so you get another +1 for having a good name) ;)

Looks like your auto-spellcheck played fast and loose with the spelling on the first one. :D I asked my mom recently, if you had to name me this, why'd you pick such a weird spelling? her answer: "It was different." :facepalm: Sure is, mom, so different that spell-checkers for all eternity will misspell my name. :D her reply to THAT was : "Blame it on your dad. My pick was 'Jill'." (my middle name, which I went by for 25 yrs, till, after rehab, my ex decided that since I was a whole new person now, I should go by my "more mature" first name.

Isn't it weird how we get no (or very little) say in OUR OWN NAME? :facepalm:


I checked with my supplier (rather unsavory tattoo-covered freak with highly rebellious attitude towards goobermint in general-goes by the moniker 'VapinWolf') and was relieved to learn he has no plans of following any goobermint prescribed juice making regulations and also presented a rather aggressive raised center finger directed towards goobermint for general purposes.

He also suggested anyone serious about keeping their vape do the same. Fight regulations which restrict the availability to the free market while stockpiling for your personal future if the worst comes to be....

and to those who laughed when many of us suggested this a year ago, I am sure I am not alone when I say sometimes I hate it when I am right :(

I echo and +1 your rebellious attitude to ALL authority, and second your raised finger to the goobermint; I'll even double it! :thumbs: (imagine those AREN'T thumbs!)

At this point, the only aspect of my own vaping that seriously worries me is WTA. I am already implementing my gradual reduction of it, until I can get by with plain-nic vaping. It's expensive as hell anyway, and I really don't want to still be in a position of needing it, when they decide, oh this might hurt someone sometime somehow or another.

And I have to say, I really don't think the goobermint gives one flying whatever if we vape however we're so inclined to do it; all they really care about is 1) and primary, above and beyond any other consideration, they get their share of the moolah, and 2) a distant 2nd place, is covering their own behinds if it should prove to be some kind of risk to anyone at any time. I think they're trying to figure out how to do the 2nd thing without seriously endangering the primary thing, because the money is far more important to them than ANYBODY'S well-being, except their own. Which is why I doubt they want to do anything to discourage it, because hey, it's a whole new moneytree.

Andria
 

LittleBird

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Dec 7, 2014
4,015
33,146
East Coast, USA
Of all the posts in this thread which are all nothing but speculation, THIS is the most important question right now.

Agree. (Of course I do. I posted it, originally. :)) Here's the thing. CASAA has issued many calls to action. We all need to respond. Yes, there are a lot of anti-vapors, and yes, the tobacco and pharma industries employ high-powered lobbyists. But Congress still listens to ordinary voters, if we take the time to provide our input. It takes about as much time to send an email/letter to our Representative(s) as it takes to post on ecf. Speaker Boehner's request matters a great deal, and we need to express our support, and get others to do the same.. My :2c:
 
Last edited:

puffon

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
  • Sep 18, 2014
    5,929
    15,765
    Florida
    Finally got a response back from a CASAA call to action.
    FWIW:

    January 15, 2015

    Thank you for sending me your concerns regarding the potential regulation of electronic cigarettes.

    The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) currently regulates cigarettes, cigarette tobacco, roll-your-own tobacco, and smokeless tobacco. On April 24th, 2014, the FDA proposed a regulation that would extend the agency's tobacco authority to cover additional products, including e-cigarettes, cigars, pipe tobacco, nicotine gels, and waterpipe tobacco. Only e-cigarettes that are marketed for therapeutic purposes are currently regulated by the FDA. Under the proposed regulation, producers of these additional items would be required to register their products with the FDA for review and approval. By falling under these tobacco regulations, producers would be prohibited from selling to underage youth and required to include a health warning on all their packaging.

    The comment period for the proposed rule ended on August 8th, and the FDA is currently reviewing over 135,000 comments that were received. Because e-cigarettes have not yet been deemed to fall under Tobacco Control Act regulations, e-cigarette manufacturers don't need to comply with the premarket tobacco product application (PMTA) process. Furthermore, even if the proposed rule gets finalized, e-cigarette manufacturers would be given extra time to submit applications under the PMTA process.

    The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is charged with conducting studies on public health issues. As a relatively new product, it will take some time for the scientific community to reach consensus regarding e-cigarettes' safety and effectiveness at reducing smoking rates. I certainly support transparency and keeping the public well-informed with sound data, so I will continue to keep an eye out for agenda-driven science.

    Oversight of the FDA falls under the jurisdiction of the House Committee on Agriculture, while the CDC is monitored by the House Energy and Commerce Committee. Each committee determines what hearings it will hold, and I am not a member of either. Should any legislation regarding the regulation of e-cigarettes come before me on the House floor, I will certainly keep your thoughts in mind.

    I appreciate you bringing this matter to my attention, please don't hesitate to reach out in the future.

    Sincerely,

    Richard Nugent
    Member of Congress
     
    Status
    Not open for further replies.

    Users who are viewing this thread