I pledge alegience, to the Pres...

[SLDS181]

So- What would you do with an illegal alien that is bleeding to death in the emergency room? Call imigration? Take them out back and shoot them? or Stop the bleeding.

The fact is that people die without proper healthcare. Also- People die who have healthcare- they insurance company just won't pay for more expensive treatments they need. We are a civilized country. No one should die for lack of funds.

.... what does that have to do with the price of milk?

Seriously. An illegal is bleeding to death.... how does that factor in with a healthcare system? Either we pay it in taxes, or we pay it in hospital costs.

People CAN'T be turned away now. So what are you trying to say here?

 

[Robert]

Obama was called I liar when he said they would not care for illegals.

Last night on Bill Mar he ask the question- I just wondered what the anti-Obama Anti-Healthcare folks on this form had to say.

 

[SLDS181]

Oh, they will, hospitals can't turn away an emergency. Its going to get paid for one way or another.

Personally, I don't think its practical to even have illegals. I think we should just allow them to come through to work, even on a day pass, but through designated areas only - but enforce minimum wage law and tax collection (go after the businesses.... its alot easier going after tens of thousands of businesses than tens of millions of illegals). But thats just my inner realism speaking.

 

[Surf Monkey]

You're providing anecdotal evidence yourself, so I'm not sure what your objection is based on.

Here's a simpler example:

Patient 1 notices a lump in his abdomen. First thing the next day he schedules an appointment with his doctor. The doctor discovers that it's a cyst and drains it. Patient cured. Total cost $260.

Patient 2 notices a lump in his abdomen. Having no health insurance, he puts it out of his head and goes about his life. A couple of months pass and the lump gets quite a bit larger. It also becomes painful. Eventually the pain is so bad that he goes to the emergency room. At the ER they discover that he has a cyst that's become enlarged and then ruptured. It's caused a massive infection and he needs to spend at least the next 48 hours under observation. Two days later they send him home with prescriptions for pain killers and a course of anti-biotics. He's also scheduled for a followup visit a week later. At the followup they find that he's mostly recovered but want to continue antibiotics and monitor his progress. Later, after a second followup Patient 2 is deemed cured and sent on his way. Total cost: north of 5k.

Both of these scenarios play out with minor variations every day of the week.

Which would you rather spend your money on? We're paying for the more expensive one right now.

The notion that preventive care doesn't impact the bottom line is flat out absurd IMO.

 

[Duckies]

Obama was called I liar when he said they would not care for illegals.

Thats not what he said and why the Senator was wrong. He said illegals will not be allowed to participate in the plans being proposed.

On a side note, Joe "you lie" Wilson voted for the Bush 2003 Medicare Modernization Act that gave government subsidies to insurance companies to administer parts of Medicare. In that Act? $250mm annually for indigent care for illegals...

 

[Surf Monkey]

On a side note, Joe "you lie" Wilson voted for the Bush 2003 Medicare Modernization Act that gave government subsidies to insurance companies to administer parts of Medicare. In that Act? $250mm annually for indigent care for illegals...

Of course. It's a simple political calculation. When the Republicans were in power, they were working night and day to solidify what they perceived as a growing base of support amongst latino voters. Now that Democrats are running Washington the Republicans want to block any attempt they may make to court those same latinos. Guys like Joe Wilson simply don't have the tact to pull off the policy pivot. His exclamation shows that he actually believes his own shifting rhetoric.

 

[hobson]

Which bill? There are several. Having read most of the legislation I have to say that your assertion above is, to the best of my knowledge, incorrect.

All the bills have the public option included, HR 3200, Kennedy-Dodd Bill and The Senate Public Plan. Who knows what will come out of the Baucus proposal.

I'm not sure what bill Obama was speaking about in his address to congress but the most talked about is HR 3200. If you've read it then you missed some very important parts. You may want to take another look.

 

[SLDS181]

Which would you rather spend your money on? We're paying for the more expensive one right now.

The notion that preventive care doesn't impact the bottom line is flat out absurd IMO.

Your example is not preventative care. The first example has nothing to do with health insurance, guy goes to doctor, pays full price, $260. In your second example, guy ignores his health when he has a condition, and it becomes a problem.

See, preventative care is 1-2 annual visits to the doctor when in good physical health.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Your example is not preventative care. The first example has nothing to do with health insurance, guy goes to doctor, pays full price, $260. In your second example, guy ignores his health when he has a condition, and it becomes a problem.

See, preventative care is 1-2 annual visits to the doctor when in good physical health.

Oh, in other words, you're now offering a new definition of preventive care so that your original hypothesis will hold up, even though it's hogwash.

If that's how you're going to play the game, this discussion is at an end.

 

[MHR7331]

Ok I'm sorry but I have to get this off my chest.

I don't have children of my own, but my nephew and I are very close, I can't have kids, and he's the closest I will ever have to a son - and I feel as protective of him as such.

I was born and raised in the United States of America. I never thought I would see the days we are going through now.

I do my best to keep an open mind, not to judge others, etc. but this has gone way too far.

If anyone thinks that they are going to off my Grandma because she's 84 and too much of a bother to take care of anymore, and indoctrinate my Nephew to believe that HE should serve his government like a good boy for some reason... well people have another thing coming.

Myself and my family pledge alegience to the FLAG.. and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands.. not the President.

We the people vote the President into office to serve US - not the other way around. Obama, every president before him, and every one to come after him is in office to serve the people. End of story.

I about spit my coffee when I heard a commercial on the radio. It was a bunch of actors promoting Obama by 'pledging their alegience to the president' and even specifically to Obama, pledging to how the can best *serve* Obama, the president, etc. --> Come on Kids - We are your cool Hollywood Heroes - This is the way to be!! WTF?! KISS MY ....!!

Ok I will get off of my soapbox - sorry for the rant.

Take care all and I really hope for the best for everyone no matter where you live in this world.

- Hap

I don't think our country is heading down Orwellian straits just yet, but I sympathize with you. I absolutely despised Dubya and everything he stood for, along with a whole hell of a lot of Americans. Nevertheless, he was the President of the United States, and deserved the respect afforded to the office. I believe the same applies to Obama.

So a group of actors put on a radio commercial emphatically advocating the agenda of our President... hardly the catalyst to black helicopters and book burnings...

 

[hobson]

School kids taught to praise Obama

These are children at the B. Bernice Young Elementary School in Burlington, NJ.

 

[Surf Monkey]

LOL

More FEAR!! Let's all FEAR the evil black man!!

 

[SLDS181]

Oh, in other words, you're now offering a new definition of preventive care so that your original hypothesis will hold up, even though it's hogwash.

If that's how you're going to play the game, this discussion is at an end.

.... regular healthy visits to a doctor is what preventative care is.

You're right. This discussion is at an end, like I said, as we can't even agree on the fundamentals.

 

[Surf Monkey]

.... regular healthy visits to a doctor is what preventative care is.

That restrictive definition serves to support your position... but it isn't accurate. Preventive care is both regular visits and visits when something seems to be wrong. That's the whole point of getting everyone health insurance; so that they can go to the doctor at the beginning of an illness, not at the end.

You're right. This discussion is at an end, like I said, as we can't even agree on the fundamentals.

Evidently not, which is a shame since you seem like a generally reasonable person.

 

[SLDS181]

Evidently not, which is a shame since you seem like a generally reasonable person.

Same, but you can't agree on everything all the time (or even disagree on everything all the time )

 

[Bones]

Oh, they will, hospitals can't turn away an emergency. Its going to get paid for one way or another.

Personally, I don't think its practical to even have illegals. I think we should just allow them to come through to work, even on a day pass, but through designated areas only - but enforce minimum wage law and tax collection (go after the businesses.... its alot easier going after tens of thousands of businesses than tens of millions of illegals). But thats just my inner realism speaking.

"I don't think its practical to even have illegals"
You make it sound like we had a vote on it or something -
"All those in favor of having illegals - All those opposed?"

Inner Realism? - What you say would only be realistic if the USA was only 100 Square Miles of factories and farms located just across the border - There is so much more to this issue "realistically speaking" - In many cases we are talking about people who actually live here - Not just scurrying across the border to pick a few heads of lettuce and then going back at night - Day Pass? - -

Next you suggest enforcing minimum wage and tax collection - On Illegals? - So let them remain Illegal - But then give them the protection of our labor laws? - I do agree that it may be easier to confront this issue at the buisness level - BUT - You'd have to fire them and/or deport them - You can't envoke laws that protect legal citizens in regards to illegal ones - And therein lies one of the greatest problems with this issue - They are not so much "Illegal Aliens" as they are "Illegal Citizens" - Some have been here all of their lives now and have children and grandchildren that are citizens by birth -

I'm shocked when I hear people speak out against the amnesty option as something that would further drain the system - If you make them LEGAL then you CAN enforce taxation and other such labor laws - I fail to see how having a sudden influx of 12 Million NEW TAX PAYERS would drain the system? They would then be paying for the services just like everyone else - NO? That attitude just shows a general disdain for immigrants and totally contradicts the long standing cry of "I'm not racist or Xenophobic - It's just that they are illegal that makes it a problem" - To maintain that they would be a "drain on the system" once they are legally participating in it - Is just plain stupid - Before you counter that - I'm NOT calling you racist - Just mentioning a view I often hear expressed on this issue -

As it stands now - The only option is deportation and punitive measures for the business that employs them - This does seem to be one issue that the recession has improved though - Far less illegals coming over now and far more Americans taking jobs they would not touch before -

 

[SLDS181]

"I don't think its practical to even have illegals"
You make it sound like we had a vote on it or something -
"All those in favor of having illegals - All those opposed?"

Actually, we do. Its by a law we've created that they are illegal. It would be far more practical to make them a taxable working class, and enforce adherence to minimum wage laws and paying taxes.

Inner Realism? - What you say would only be realistic if the USA was only 100 Square Miles of factories and farms located just across the border - There is so much more to this issue "realistically speaking" - In many cases we are talking about people who actually live here - Not just scurrying across the border to pick a few heads of lettuce and then going back at night - Day Pass? - -

Quite a few do... and those who live here would prefer to be considered legal, and being paid more than $2/hr for their work. I say let them work, they will anyway. Do you know how much crime goes unreported out of fear of being deported?

I hope you realize also this is in line with Obama's current thinking.

Next you suggest enforcing minimum wage and tax collection - On Illegals? - So let them remain Illegal - But then give them the protection of our labor laws? - I do agree that it may be easier to confront this issue at the buisness level - BUT - You'd have to fire them and/or deport them - You can't envoke laws that protect legal citizens in regards to illegal ones - And therein lies one of the greatest problems with this issue - They are not so much "Illegal Aliens" as they are "Illegal Citizens" - Some have been here all of their lives now and have children and grandchildren that are citizens by birth -

You're missing the point, its the consideration of them as being illegal I take issue with. Let them work, but on equal grounds by comparison to american citizens. I'm not letting them remain illegal, you need to read what I said bones. As in, they aren't illegal anymore. They are workers. I'm not speaking out against amnesty. I know the benefits of more tax payers.

Are you even reading what I wrote, or did you just see "illegals" and start ranting?

 

[nebraskapuffer]

Ok I'm sorry but I have to get this off my chest.

I don't have children of my own, but my nephew and I are very close, I can't have kids, and he's the closest I will ever have to a son - and I feel as protective of him as such.

I was born and raised in the United States of America. I never thought I would see the days we are going through now.

I do my best to keep an open mind, not to judge others, etc. but this has gone way too far.

If anyone thinks that they are going to off my Grandma because she's 84 and too much of a bother to take care of anymore, and indoctrinate my Nephew to believe that HE should serve his government like a good boy for some reason... well people have another thing coming.

Myself and my family pledge alegience to the FLAG.. and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands.. not the President.

We the people vote the President into office to serve US - not the other way around. Obama, every president before him, and every one to come after him is in office to serve the people. End of story.

I about spit my coffee when I heard a commercial on the radio. It was a bunch of actors promoting Obama by 'pledging their alegience to the president' and even specifically to Obama, pledging to how the can best *serve* Obama, the president, etc. --> Come on Kids - We are your cool Hollywood Heroes - This is the way to be!! WTF?! KISS MY ....!!

Ok I will get off of my soapbox - sorry for the rant.

Take care all and I really hope for the best for everyone no matter where you live in this world.

- Hap

No need to say sorry for ranting to me. You are 100% correct. Those that say you are full of "whatever" will one day agree with you. Probably when its too late to do anything about it though.

 

[Bones]

Are you even reading what I wrote, or did you just see "illegals" and start ranting?

Yes - I read what you wrote - I was not posting to argue with what you wrote - Was more agreeing and I do apologize for digressing a bit - Not everything I said was referring to what you wrote - Just some thoughts on the subject - Sorry too if I posed it as against you - I think we are 90% in agreement - You did seem to oversimplify the issue a little though -

The amnesty issue seems like a no brainer at this point - Either Spend billions to round up and/or deport - OR - Gain billions in new tax payers - Hmmmmmm?

Still it seems most people fail to calculate the effects on business - Our system has become very dependent on the way things are - There will ALWAYS be illegal immigrants - Any Country - Any Time - Anywhere - Always is - Always has been - They will ALWAYS work for far less and they will always find work - There is simply no way to ever stop it - The best you can do is manage it wisely - You got people you know have lived here 20 years or more and are part of society already - Give em a pass and start collecting their taxes -Easy part - Now - Who replaces them when they go and get a better job because they don't have to fear deportation? - Multiply that reality by 12 Million++ The costs of goods and services will skyrocket - OR - There will come many more illegals to take their place -

I'm in no way committed to a stance or solution on this issue - Its just so huge and many sided - No matter what we decide - It will never be very enforceable anyway - No country has ever really dealt with it very well -