I think we need the FDA, I really do.

[Hoosier]

The FDA the OP wants is not the FDA we have.

Wishing it otherwise won't change it.

I'm just simplifying a complex subject without masking or modifying the truth here. Grandmother always said that if you can't simplify something so that anyone can understand it, then you really don't understand it yourself.
Sent by big fingers on a tiny phone via Tapatalk

 

[Ken_A]

Ok. I've read. And for the most part, the conversation seems to be going smoothly... Only a couple of thinly veiled insults. So here is my take for the consideration of the OP.

Per FDA regulations, every aspect of manufacturing eliquid is already covered under existing regulations. From cleanliness of facilities, to using safe ingredients.

By deeming eliquid that MAY have nicotine derived from tobacco, the FDA is opening the door for regulation of non-nicotine eliquids, atomizers, cartomizers, wicking material, wire used to make an atomizer, battery devices, and battery replaceable devices.

Every government department is brought forth with good intentions and increased safety for all. However, for any government department to justify it's existence, it must be seen to be doing a job. From that point, it all goes you-know-where in a hand basket. Government departments very quickly evolve from regulation to control... Then lose all control and regulation.
The FDA was set up to regulate the safety of products and has evolved into controlling the safety of the manufacturing process.

No, I don't think we need the FDA, but we are going to get them. With the current deeming regulation, there should be a few hundred lawsuits against the regulations, and everyone will be back to square one.

Baring legal battles, you can regulate my PV, but can you regulate my flashlight? My stick form-factor ohm meter?
This is why they are prepared to not regulate anything except the liquid, but still have the POWER to regulate more... Once people are used to the one, the FDA can take another little bite of the other... Won't hurt much... Just a small issue... And another and another, and the end result is me in prison for vaping in my own home.

Yeah, it can go that far.
Last month, a rancher had his cattle confiscated because he was grazing them where his family had done so for generations.
There is current legislation that will put hundreds of independently owned cable companies out of business and make it a crime to have such a company.
There are many other examples within every single industry.

It's for your safety. It's for your good. It's for your welfare.

Where is Penn and Teller when you need a show put together?

 

[SupplyDaddy]

I think the OP actually did the Best "regulation" action that can be done.. Customer refusal to continue doing (or concluding) business with the shop due to the shops lack of Quality Control.
Isn't that really the front line?

 

[Ryedan]

Awh Yes... American e-Liquids Company.

I wrote them when they first started saying that they were FDA Certified. And asked to see their Certification. I received a Rambling reply which basically said that they Used FDA "Approved" Food Ingredients. And that they worked to FDA Guidelines.

But I never say what they said they were FDA Certified to do. Or a Copy of any Certification. Now things may have Changed since then. So I can't say what the Claim, or Infer today is Not True.

I would be Curious to hear what replies people get when they Contact them regarding FDA Certification?

From their website:

'Only pharmaceutical grade ingredients are used to always maintain the highest quality and purity possible.'

Does anyone know if there such is a thing as pharmaceutical grade flavoring and if so what that means?

 

[bm2112]

"They were 2-times higher than the strict NIOSH-defined safety limits (Figure 4) but 100 and 10 times lower compared to smoking respectively."

So this is the evidence your siting as necessity for FDA regulation?

Hahaha. The FDA approves cigarettes and the chemicals you're worried about are 10-100 times more concentrated in the FDA's approved method of inhaling nicotine.

Did you not see what Nicorette Quickmist has in it? I posted a link above.

 

[zoiDman]

If you think your ejuice is contaminated with chemicals now, just wait til the FDA gets their hands on it. They'll make sure they load it up with plenty of toxic preservatives and other chemicals.

Please explain what kind of unsafe ingredients vape shop owners are putting in there juice. I would really love to know. I thought VG, PG, nicotine concentrate, and flavor was a pretty simple formula.

Do you Consider Diacetyl to be a Safe Chemical in e-Liquids given the Dosage and Frequency the Average person may us it?

 

[zoiDman]

From their website:

'Only pharmaceutical grade ingredients are used to always maintain the highest quality and purity possible.'

Does anyone know if there such is a thing as pharmaceutical grade flavoring and if so what that means?

Never heard of "Pharmaceutical Grade Flavoring". But that Doesn't mean that they do Not Exist. I think there is a Lot of Word Bending going on the Site you mentioned.

These people write conventions for Ingredients...

USP Verified Pharmaceutical Ingredients | U.S. Pharmacopeial Convention


It is Easy to Confuse Safe Products to use with Purity. But 100% Pure Rat Poison is still Rat Poison. It is just Very Pure Rat Poison.

 

[bm2112]

zoiDman I already basically replied to the question you asked me. The FDA approves cigarettes. Cigarettes have 10-100 times the amount of DA as ecigs do. Obviously if the FDA approves cigarettes, the amount of Diacetyl in ejuice would be of no consequence according to their own logic.

 

[AndriaD]

I think it's all about meeting certain standards as someone stated above. Until the FDA decides to exercise inspection rights and demand compliance in the chemistry of the formulas and ingredients, there will be no FDA certified ejuice as such.

I like the statement that Madvapes issued. I've seen pictures of their clean room facility. It looks like an airlocked area with people wearing clean room attire.
About TopVapor E-Liquid

Which does not explain why their e-liquid basically sucks. I'm a fan of MadVapes, I think they're great... but not their juice.

Andria

 

[zoiDman]

zoiDman I already basically replied to the question you asked me. The FDA approves cigarettes. Cigarettes have 10-100 times the amount of DA as ecigs do. Obviously if the FDA approves cigarettes, the amount of Diacetyl in ejuice would be of no consequence according to their own logic.

You asked...

Please explain what kind of unsafe ingredients vape shop owners are putting in there juice.

My Answer to you is Diacetyl.

 

[FattyJ]

It is true that just because a flavoring has been tested to be safe if eaten doesn't mean that is it safe for inhalation. Maybe this has already been covered but right now I want testing of flavorings for inhalation hazards.

 

[AndriaD]

It is true that just because a flavoring has been tested to be safe if eaten doesn't mean that is it safe for inhalation. Maybe this has already been covered but right now I want testing of flavorings for inhalation hazards.

Tell me about it! Many of us eat black pepper, right? How many of us want to INHALE it?

My son was stupid enough to do it on a dare, once. His words: NEVER AGAIN TAKE A DARE!!!

Andria

 

[skoony]

another thing about e-juice is i firmly believe if you can make a cake from scratch you can make juice. just remember what your mom told you. clean up after yourself. there are many jobs and hobbies one will be using ingredients far more harmful than what would be found in juice. farming,pest control,painting,commercial cleaning,your next door neighbor that has the green thumb all use stuff that is far more harmful.
regards
mike

 

[SleeZy]

You asked...



My Answer to you is Diacetyl.

It is true that just because a flavoring has been tested to be safe if eaten doesn't mean that is it safe for inhalation. Maybe this has already been covered but right now I want testing of flavorings for inhalation hazards.

This is very true. However if FDA gets to decide as i mentioned earlier only BT would be making the juice. And you can be 100% sure they will ADD at least a dozens of extra chemicals just to get us more hooked to vaping, instead of the smoking.
Why would they even approve 4000 checmicals in cigarettes?
In the old age of smoking, it was pure dired tobacco. NO CHEMICALS ADDED. So why do they have to add 4000? Well you know it.
This will happen to our beloved juice aswell.

 

[Jman8]

I visited a B&M while in SF a while ago and was talking up my favourite juice. The owner said 'I can clone it for you!'. I was intrigued and came back later with the bottle. He took me back to his 'lab' which was little more than a dirty dinner table with all sorts of junk spread out among bottles of juice and VG. Filthy. I walked straight out.

This started me thinking though.. With this Diacetyl scare, and the replacements in custard juice. We have no idea. It's all good and fine if you're vaping pure VG, but flavours.. we have no idea. And I get it. Cigs are worse. It's not about that. It's just scary. You try to put faith in these indie juice businesses but the reality is, we just have no idea. The point of swapping to vape from Cigs is usually a health reason, and it'd be nice to have SOME idea what's going on.

I think an element of certification and regulation will hurt us, financially and from a selection point of view.. but gee.. I'd probably welcome that in return for a bit of peace of mind and research.

What do you guys think. I'm assuming I don't have a popular opinion, but I'd like to hear yours.

Read the entire thread and kinda surprised I didn't see the take I'm about to give.

Essentially, I would wonder why home made lab environment (that may or may not be filthy) needs to be regulated (out of existence)? I see no problem with exposing that and letting consumers decide accordingly, though hoping that decision doesn't include campaign against this type of mixer. You may not like that, but another consumer may.

The problem, as I understand it, is perception that juice would be automatically bad (unhealthy) under such conditions and because this person is distributing that product to others, it ought to be corrected, and held to a (much higher) standard. I think that will be the popular opinion, but not so certain it is the right one. As it would arguably mean that all DIY mixers ought to be held to that same standard. I'm thinking easy response to that is, "but they aren't distributing it to others." Yet, what if they are? Sharing it with family or friends who are clueless and are okay remaining clueless. I would think exact same ethical dilemma would exist if that homemade mixer (DIYer) shares even one puff with another person. And arguably exist even for their own purposes, but alas, that argument will be shot down because .... well .... what a person wants to mix up and put into their own body is seen as entirely up to them. And I wonder, if we see inherent problem with non-pristine conditions, why that wouldn't be also seen as inherent problem with most DIY set-ups, and hold that to high standard, to be consistent on this issue.

The diacetyl issue isn't one being caused by "filthy mixers" and thus helps make the other point that I see as highly relevant to this discussion. That being, that even most optimal conditions for mixing, could introduce ingredients into vaping that could (later) be determined as unhealthy. As this is the way things are likely to go (seeking optimal conditions for mixing), I just assume the history (still being written) be allowed to play out and for many in this thread to realize that vaping undesirable ingredients will be an issue for long long long time to come.

Furthermore, you won't know via regulations firmly in place what mixing labs are actually up to. You'll get that information secondhand, and you will exercise faith (or blind trust) in hope that what you aren't seeing matches what you think is being done. But as one who has worked in restaurants, I think all sorts of interesting things could occur in these future, regulated, labs that would possibly make one cringe as much as the filthy, dark mixing lab.

Finally, the wild west has been good so far. Many of us anticipate what's to come could be worse. Partially because to justify top notch labs and triple-checking of product output, there is a high cost. Plus there are other factors (ANTZ agenda being near the top) to make sure those costs, that are passed on to consumers, are even higher. Might not occur, but say 15 years from now, it could be that 1ml of juice for $5 is a bargain, and seen as necessary given just how this stuff is made, and how many taxes are involved.

Be careful what you wish for.
Otherwise, the black market's mixing conditions may one day be precisely the type of product you are yearning for.

 

[Jman8]

I can see it all now

"I make e-cig juice"
My lab is FDA certified
My ingredients are FDA certified
My technicians are FDA certified
The tune I'm whistling is FDA certified

This interests me. I think vendors will go this route (marketing), and think consumers will latch onto it as if this is a good thing. Dude, it's FDA certified, so it's totally cool to vape. FDA will be seen as golden friend when we want to let others know just how safe this juice is.

 

[Rickajho]

Reasonable regulations would be fine, but that's not likely to be what we get.

"Reasonable regulations" is a bureaucratic oxymoron, right up there with "government intelligence."

 

[AndriaD]

This interests me. I think vendors will go this route (marketing), and think consumers will latch onto it as if this is a good thing. Dude, it's FDA certified, so it's totally cool to vape. FDA will be seen as golden friend when we want to let others know just how safe this juice is.

I started to "like" this... but I just can't. A far better response is ...

Andria

 

[sneakerpimp]

This is very true. However if FDA gets to decide as i mentioned earlier only BT would be making the juice. And you can be 100% sure they will ADD at least a dozens of extra chemicals just to get us more hooked to vaping, instead of the smoking.
Why would they even approve 4000 checmicals in cigarettes?
In the old age of smoking, it was pure dired tobacco. NO CHEMICALS ADDED. So why do they have to add 4000? Well you know it.
This will happen to our beloved juice aswell.

on the flip side of that will be the organic juice movement.

 

[zoiDman]

This is very true. However if FDA gets to decide as i mentioned earlier only BT would be making the juice. And you can be 100% sure they will ADD at least a dozens of extra chemicals just to get us more hooked to vaping, instead of the smoking.Why would they even approve 4000 checmicals in cigarettes?
In the old age of smoking, it was pure dired tobacco. NO CHEMICALS ADDED. So why do they have to add 4000? Well you know it.
This will happen to our beloved juice aswell.

I just Don't see it all the "Extra" Chemicals happening in FDA Allowed e-Liquids.

These are Different Times. A person can get a Bad Batch of e-Liquid in the AM. And by the PM, 2/3 of this Site Knows about it.

Remember, they Needed to make Cigarettes Addictive because People Knew they were Hazardous to your Health. So People wanted to Quit. But when a Product is Shown to be Much Less Harmful, there Isn't the Need to keep People on it. They will do that On Their Own.

But I do agree that I think Flavored e-Liquids are going to be just what you said in your Opening Lines. Extremely Costly to the Point of Only a Big Corporations being able to Obtain Approval.