I want to say three words... .... THE FDA

[maxx]

Keep in mind....there is nothing about this ruling regarding safety. It simply says the FDA can't go stealing....err I mean siezing....imported e-cigs on the basis of being an untested drug device. They can still trump up a "study" anytime they wish that says repeated inhaling of one of the ingredients is not healthy...and try to ban on that basis.

It was 4th and 18....and we hit a 19-yard pass. But we are still on our own 30, down by a touchdown with 20 seconds on the clock. Gonna take a bit more in this game.

 

[mwa102464]

I don't think they will ever be able to ban vaping straight pg/vg/flavorings and if anything is going to be regulated here it will be the Nicotine as well as the Juice makers having to all get certified and label the ingredients of the juice, this end of things will probably get tightened up in the near future, but a ban ? heck wouldn't they have to ban cigarettes first before they banned vaping, just a thought.

 

[maxx]

Kristen fished out this summary from the ruling and posted in the News Forum:

The question before us is
whether Congress has authorized the Food and Drug
Administration (“FDA”) to regulate e-cigarettes under the
drug/device provisions of the Federal Food, Drug, and
Cosmetic Act (“FDCA”), 21 U.S.C. § 351 et seq., or under the
Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act of 2009
(the “Tobacco Act”), Pub. L. 111-31, 123 Stat. 1776. We
think that the statutes, properly read in light of the Supreme
Court’s decision in FDA v. Brown & Williamson, 529 U.S.
120 (2000), locate the product under the Tobacco Act.

That would mean the PACT act does apply....

 

[Desertfremen]

Yay! We're legal! Anywho I happen to slightly disagree about taxation. Do I think it will be taxed? Eventually however the "reason" why tobacco taxes are so high us because its a sin/health care tax. I have a hard time believing that the taxes will get as high as cigarettes because there is no health care increase costs associated with ii. It's also very widely accepted by the medical community that nicotine on its own is no more dangerous than caffeine. Of course this is assuming that people will know real info compared to the political "science" that seems to be taking over.

 

[Maxwell_Edison]

No one knows what the future holds with taxes and regulations, but as long as vaping remains a legal alternative to smoking, I'm happy. Most people hopefully realize the FDA is more about money than health, so time will tell.

 

[Mary Kay]

This is where all juice companys get forced to downgrade to selling only DIY supplies because of the taxes. They can only tax the nic liquid, not the pg, vg, or flavorings (at least I think). They will probably tax the hardware to the hilt too.

makes me wonder though....what about the 0 nic liquids? can they tax those too even though those clearly cannot be considered a tobacco product?

That's my question..they never made cigarettes with zero nic. What I see coming is all zero nic companies with the nic additive controlled and taxed. I doubt they will bother with the batteries, that horse has left the stall already in the form of mods. There is no stopping or controlling that anymore as Addy has stated.
I worry that they will try to controll the nic until it is totally ineffective as patches and gum. I guess we will have to learn to make our own nic from leaves. LOL Flavor is another issue. They can't control that at all! We have already learned to DIY! They can't outlaw candy making..or beverage flavoring ect.

 

[VapingRulz]

If the PACT Act applies to e-cigs, won't it mean that companies like V4L will need brick-and-mortar sites to sell their products?

 

[maxx]

They can still sell online, but may eventually be required to apply state and federal excise taxes of the location where the item is being shipped. This will take time, though....so nothing changes for the moment. BUT....you can be sure that if e-cigs are considered a tobacco product like real cigs, and big tobacco doesn't jump into the market themselves....they will surely file a lawsuit claiming unfair competition. And they would be legally right....

I am just speculating, but much of this was brought up a year ago when everyone was being urged to sign the petition to the FDA to classify as a tobacco product. I declined to sign for tax reasons. This appeals court decision pretty much renders the petition moot since the court is telling the FDA to classify as tobacco anyway. I guess we just wait and see....but the dark cloud hasn't lifted, in my opnion.

 

[VapingRulz]

Better that it's classed a tobacco product than a quit-smoking drug, I think. Best case scenario would be for the government to back off altogether because e-cigs are really none of their business... but that's not likely because it really is all about the tax revenue.

 

[Maxwell_Edison]

I sometimes think no one has a deeper distrust and pessimism about the govt than me, but I see today as a victory and I'm celebrating with some Hilton Premium vape. This govt has become all about money, but vaping is more than about money, it's about not getting lung cancer and other diseases that cigarettes bring. Just having a legal choice is a reason to be happy. Pipe and cigar tobacco has a much lower tax price than cigs, I'm thinking e-juice might fall somewhere in that category. But that's in the future. I want to be happy for right now, anyone gonna join me? Cheers!! Today we won!! That's one heavy load off my mind.

 

[plantlvr]

Maybe 'we' should sign up for FDA test studies, free ecig stuff and we could prove that they actually do help you stop smoking!
In all seriousness, if people [ like me ] could tell Goverment that, hey I quit smoking because of these devices, they are NOT a 'toy', maybe, just maybe they would listen.
Keep flashbacking to the Tipper Gore debacle trying to clean up rock and roll lyrics...

 

[maxx]

If the FDA moves to regulate e-cigs as tobacco, then parts of the FSPTCA (Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act of 2009) will undoubtedly apply or be forced to apply. The FDA will almost certainly apply the no flavors rule for cigs....to e-cigs. That means no flavors other than tobacco and menthol tobacco. They will use the "save the children" argument and it will work. The people that hated us for smoking still hate us for e-smoking, so it's not like there will be any ground swell of people to counter the FDA claim to save the poor helpless cherubs.

I hate to be the wet blanket in all this folks....but I just feel like the FDA was told they weren't allowed to beat me with a baseball bat, so they put it down and are reaching for a five iron. Same game, new rules...so I will hold my celebration until I see what the next move is.

 

[jamvector]

The real question for Maxx is, will the castle on the Kant label attract children? Kind of like Hansel and Gretel?

I am optimistic that the FDA is so FUBAR that it will take years for them to manage to enact their jurisdiction in this area, so at least we should be ok for a while.

 

[maxx]

Actually a FUBAR FDA is our best weapon. They could screw up a cup of coffee.....so there is always hope.

As for Kant Castle....there goes my suggestion to V4L to put those cute little furry animals on there.

 

[Telynau]

I am glad the Judge ruled in favour of e-cig manufacturers (again). Yes, these rulings, classifying e-cigs as tobacco products is a two-edged sword. The nic juices & nic containing cartos will probably be taxed at the pipe leaf/cigar rates. E-cigs will probably be banned in all non-smoking areas. The anti-smoking brigands will probably pb&m ever more loudly. The earth will continue to orbit the sun, and the moon, the earth.

E-cigs were not developed as a smoking cessation device. They were developed as a smoking alternative. An alternative to smoking tobacco, whether cigarette (which draws the most ire), pipe, or cigar. They were not originally marketed with any health benefit claims. Only as an alternative to smoking. (Perhaps a slick way around indoor smoking bans, too ;-)).

The FDA did a smack-down on e-cigs when a couple of company's marketing copy-writers alluded to health benefits and smoking ceassation. Had those copy-writers used the tricks of the vitamin & supplement trade, (read a bottle of vits) perhaps none of this would have come about. And e-cigs would have been happily ignored by governments (feudal, state, & local). Catch that typo? =}.

I sincerely hope Judges keep ruling against the FDA. I thoroughly enjoy vaping... and do not want to visit the doctor for a prescription for icky tasting cartos in "regular" or "menthol".

 

[VanderVape]

Well that is true, but them getting me to back to a nasty tasting tobacco to vape, well let's just say that I will find a way to vape the wonderful juices that are out there

 

[Mary Kay]

Maxx! I can screw up a cup of coffee! Oh no! I have turned into a fubared FDA!

Actually a FUBAR FDA is our best weapon. They could screw up a cup of coffee.....so there is always hope.

As for Kant Castle....there goes my suggestion to V4L to put those cute little furry animals on there.

 

[maxx]

There are dozens of potential routes that this could go, so lots of places to speculate or even wild guess. But one thing is certain. This is the United States of America...where there is no such thing as a free lunch. Right now the coalition facing us is Big Tobacco, Big Pharma, Tax-hungry legislatures, and nearly every health organization in the country. Not to mention the majority of the population. Do you guys really think they are simply going to let us walk away and go about our business? Buying e-cigs (and not cigarettes)...stopping smoking (without using the patch or gum)....vaping (in public places)....and NOT paying any tax?

Not this country folks.....aint gonna happen. I don't know exactly how they are going to come at us, or when....but come they will.



This message brought to you by the fine people at "Paranoid Cynicsm Incorporated". Serving the generally warped public since 1999.

 

[SimpleSins]

I'm not sure how we're they're going to figure out the tax on a bottle of liquids. I hope that they don't decide to charge cartos based on the false claims that some sites make about how long they last....you know, the ones that say each carto lasts the equivalent of two packs of cigarettes.

Don't necessarily quote me on this, but I believe the reason cigars and pipe tobacco are taxed at a lower rate than cigarettes is that they are not traditionally inhaled into the lungs. Because ecigs are, they will likely be taxed at the higher rate.

If you read that actual provisions of the Family Smoking Prevention yadda yadda act, the FDA could either go hardcore on it- and literally pull it from the market for a while as they have the right to deny new tobacco products, which is what the ecig is since it has been in a legal limbo for the last couple. They can regulate flavors, they can demand changes in the ingredients, the juice will be required to contain ingredient lists, and there will be all sorts of certifications and inspections necessary to establish the safe and sanitary manufacture.

As another poster noted, we have all essentially been relegated to smokers again, although I kind of get to stay in limbo because I'm a 0 nic person.

I think there are changes in store. While we dodged the bullet, it would seem that the FDA has been given a green light to treat at least the ejuice as a tobacco product which, while the lesser of two evils, will still mean a shakeup, and shakeout, of the industry.

 

[kristin]

Rather than rewrite the whole thing, I'm going to repost, if that's ok, since it covers a lot of the same comments:

As long as nicotine gum, patches, lozenges, and pills exist, and are not called cigarettes, it makes NO sense to call PVs a tobacco product. An e-cig is NOT lit, therefore there is no smoke. It's vapor, with nicotine, and it's technically regulated with vendors, with different doses readily available.

People keep equating "tobacco product" with "cigarette."

Remember that snus, chew, Orbs, strips and snuff are also "tobacco products" which are "not lit" and don't create smoke.

Most of these "tobacco products" are regulated differently from cigarettes:

1. Taxes are not as high
2. Flavors are allowed
3. Indoor use is not banned
4. They are NOT subject to PACT

There is no reason to assume that e-cigarettes will be treated like cigarettes, because they are more like other smokeless tobacco products than they are like cigarettes.

In any case, the FDA has the power now to turn the ecig industry into whatever it wants.

If e-cigarettes were deemed to be drug delivery devices, the FDA would have had the same power AND MORE. The FDA has the power to regulate both drugs and tobacco products. The difference is that they are prohibited from outright banning tobacco products.

I don't see "the ban on flavors". These are candy/food flavors after all. Heck, the flavor makers sell the flavors in PG anyway. You can always DIY anyway. This issue is only how we, as alternative nic "vapers", can purchase nicotine.

Oh yeah, the "other issue" - if it is considered a tobacco product, is it TAXED? If so, at what rate/method?

Srry if a lot of this is duplicated; too many other posts to read. Just 2 cents. I wish us all well in this.

Flavors are only banned from SOME tobacco products - mainly cigarettes. Other tobacco products are allowed to have flavors. The government would have to come up for some justification to ban flavors from e-cigarettes while leaving them in other tobacco products. The justification for banning flavors from cigarettes was that they have great health risks and flavors are supposedly a lure for children. They may argue that e-cig flavors lure children, but they'd have a hard time proving that e-cigarettes are any greater health risk than other tobacco products with flavors.

Additionally, as a tobacco product, they are prohibited from eliminating the nicotine altogether. They COULD attempt to severely lower the nicotine allowed, but they'd have to justify why they are doing it to e-cigarettes and no other tobacco products.

Again, if they are taxed higher than other smokeless tobacco products, the government would have show that e-cigarettes are just as harmful as cigarettes and deserve the same "sin tax" rates.

Also, people should remember that the FDA does NOT determine taxes. Those in the know tell me that those taxes are proposed and voted upon by federal and state legislators, who would have to justify applying a sin tax to something which has not been shown to be a dangerous product.

Flavors bans, nicotine reduction and sin taxes are all something that vapers will have an opportunity to fight for and legislators will have a tough time justifying. It will still be very important for vapers to get involved in the process and support the organizations that will be leading the fight.