Imren 40A 18650 IMR Batteries

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tony M

Full Member
Nov 18, 2013
46
70
Oklahoma City, Ok
OK, I have one of those, unused. To be honest, I expect it to test out as a 20A battery. I''ve never seen a rewrapped battery test better than that. The VTC5 is a 20A battery too so I can see how the Imren could seem to be performing as well as the VTC5. I don't think it will do as well as the 25R or VTC4 though...or the Aspire or HD2 either. But the graph will tell all! :)

I'm always willing to get me some new learnin' so I'll give the cell a good testing. It will take about two days to do the about 15 cycles it takes to test a higher-rated cell but I'll report back here when I've posted the results.

It will be a lesson for us all (well at least myself and a few others anyway) I wonder about your comment on the 25rs out doing vtc5s amp wise because the 25rs I have, while do okay, they don't seem to hit near as hard initially anyway, as do my Sony vtc5s. Maybe I got some that aren't real Samsung 25rs? They were certainly listed as authentic from where I bought them. And I've had friends vape with them all to see if they notice a difference and they all do/did. Shrug.
 

Mooch

Electron Wrangler
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
  • May 13, 2015
    4,019
    15,900
    It will be a lesson for us all (well at least myself and a few others anyway) I wonder about your comment on the 25rs out doing vtc5s amp wise because the 25rs I have, while do okay, they don't seem to hit near as hard initially anyway, as do my Sony vtc5s. Maybe I got some that aren't real Samsung 25rs? They were certainly listed as authentic from where I bought them. And I've had friends vape with them all to see if they notice a difference and they all do/did. Shrug.

    At 20A and 25A in my testing the 25R and VTC5 are within 0.02V of each other for the first third of the discharge. The 25R does a bit better as the discharge continues. Yours might possibly be fake 25Rs. We've had a couple of reports just this past week of that happening. You could check the tops of your 25R's against the one in my photos (see my test of the 25R, either blue or green wrap).

    If you were pulsing up in the 30A range I can see a bigger difference between the batteries perhaps starting to appear. But I haven't tested them at above 25A....too hot, unsafe.

    It's actually really, really hard to objectively compare batteries when using mods, unless there is a big difference between them. It's a heck of a lot more fun than watching a battery being discharged by an electronic load though!
     

    Tony M

    Full Member
    Nov 18, 2013
    46
    70
    Oklahoma City, Ok
    @Mooch
    That indeed is interesting. I'm not saying anything against you or your testing methods or results, simply because I wasn't there to watch it being done. But every graph I've seen, doesn't show the results you state. The last one I did look at, showed the 25rs vs vtc5 at a 20 amp continuous draw, showing a a pretty steady .05 to .08 (1/2v to a little over 3/4v ) volt less than the vtc5, all the way to the basic ends of the shut off voltage of the test. this is significant enough of a difference that one can say that the 25r is not as good as the vtc5. Both from full charge on a 20a continuous discharge showed a large voltage drop initially, but even when doing as close a look at the graph as I could, I could not discern much about the initial volt drop. At 35a continues draw, things get pretty drastic on both batteries, but even still, the vtc5 handled it better then the Samsung 25r, which fell off a whole lot faster. On top of it all, I'd go with the advertisement of places claiming (Even Illum advertises them as"Discharge: nominal 20A / max 30A") the vtc5 is indeed at least a 30a continuous discharge battery, since on most graphs it shows them to indeed get hot (which too many times will degrade the chemistry of the battery) but they do hold up longer at that rate than other batteries tested against it. Anyway, I guess to satisfy myself really... I'm going to have to go ahead and spring for a CBA IV 4 Pro Computerized Battery Analyzer and temp probe.

    Please don't take offence, because I also appreciate your work and efforts. But having looked at things again, since I got into it here, I'll probably never be satisfied about much of anything, until or unless I do things myself. It has nothing to do with you personally or your testing abilities or equipment. It all has to do with my personal basic skepticism of most things I see or read on the internet. I'm not even satisfied with the online cliché' of; "if there are no pictures ! then it didn't happen!" I do like to think and hope that the majority of people are honest (maybe I'm delusional too). I like to think that they wouldn't type something if they didn't believe what they are typing too. But I'm just too distrusting too I suppose. LOL I was told in grade school that the planet Pluto was in our solar system and I believed that to be true. I believed it was the 9th and last planet of our solar system. Then all these years later, we have a bunch of knot heads telling the world that they aren't classifying it as a planet at all for what I believe to be silly reasoning. Is it Memorex of is it fake!

    But I regress. The point is... I just need to be able to do what I can myself. I can't go way out there to Pluto to convince myself that I wasn't lied to about it being a planet (will never have the personal funds to be able to do that). But I can check batteries out myself using proper equipment (which I can afford, but it's not really that cheap.. I'd rather spend the money on something I really don't need, such as say an authentic SX mini M class.:cool:) and that is exactly what I'm going to do. As soon as I post this, I'm going to go to the site and order the CBA IV 4 Pro Computerized Battery Analyzer and temp probe and whatever else I think I need to do a thorough and good test on the batteries. Might even purchase an inexpensive Oscilloscope if I find one that I can use in conjunction with the other.
     

    Mooch

    Electron Wrangler
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
  • May 13, 2015
    4,019
    15,900
    @Tony M, no offense taken, looking forward to seeing your test results! :)

    I did want to bring up your mention of the 25R's running 0.05V-0.08V lower than the VTC5's in that test you saw. That's less than 1/10th of a volt, not 1/2-3/4 of a volt.

    An important note about the 30A maximum ratings for the VTC5 you saw. Many cells can be rated far above the manufacturer's CDR (continuous discharge rating). Heck, even the 15A Samsung can be run at 30A...and fairly well too in spite of the high temps. It all depends on what temperature and cycle life limits you set when doing the tests. For me, I have set certain limits based on what the major manufacturers do. I then use those same limits across all my tests to allow easy comparisons between the cells. For the VTC5 there was additional evidence that it's not a 30A cell (further details in my test post) beyond the damaging high temps when above 20A.

    Like you, I have a skeptical side. :) Especially when it comes to a vendor's rating of a cell. Very few do testing of their own and even fewer do the testing well. They may have good intentions but they will usually go with the prevailing feelings about a certain cell's rating rating rather than take the time and expense to test them. I don't fault them for that at all. But I feel you can't trust those ratings any more than the ratings set by someone who has actually tested the cell and detailed their testing methodology. Not saying to trust mine more...just to mistrust us equally. :)

    One note regarding the CBA thermal sensor. It's essentially useless for testing the fast changing temperatures seen when discharging cells at moderate to high rates. That sensor is best for low, under one amp, capacity testing of cells. The sensor uses a "thermistor" which has a response time of, IIRC, 15 seconds. In addition, it has a sleeve over it which increases the response time even more. And lastly, its shape prevents you from tightly coupling it thermally to the curved shape of the cell case. Even if using thermal compound. All this leads to temperature readings significantly lower than the cell's actual case temperature.

    I highly recommend using a "thermocouple" for temperature sensing. It is the industry standard for this type of measuring and has a very quick response time. It is tiny in size so you can thermally couple it tightly to the cell very easily too. I can recommend a thermometer using thermocouple if you want to consider getting one.

    But, the CBA is a terrific device for testing! There are large voltage drops as the current rises up to 20A and higher but you can do some modifications to reduce them. Nothing else like it for the price though. Get the high current cell clamping rig too. It's a great start until you build a better high-amp clamping setup.

    I'm really looking forward to seeing another CBA being used for tests here on ECF!
     

    Tony M

    Full Member
    Nov 18, 2013
    46
    70
    Oklahoma City, Ok
    @Mouch

    Would/could you please direct me to where you got your settings for "based on what the major manufacturers do" I've spent pretty much a day looking for such things, and while I have found the industry standard for larger voltage and amp Li Batteries, acid core, gel etc. than what we as vapers use, I have not found anything on 18000, 26000 series Li batteries. What I have found on them is vague. Too vague to be able to set all the perimeters I want to try anyway.

    Ty for your input about the temp sensor. I didn't purchase the one based on your advise, (of which I thank you for) but now I'm not finding one that I can use With the CBA. So guess I'll give them a call and see if they have something I missed on the site or have any other suggestion.

    Anyway as soon as I get things here and set up, complete with the learning curve that I'll need to do things properly, I'll begin testing. Most likely though I'll at first sit the perimeters as if I were using a battery specifically and only for vaping. Like having one in a mech with an RDA on top with various resistances. I've seen that done, but the one I saw, the man mentioned that he had older software and thus, could only sit his on/ off pulse to 10sec. Truth be told, very few actually fire their devises a full 10 seconds. I did a test using a stop watch with some friends last night and pretty much came to the conclusion that normal vaping is more along the lines of a 3 to 7 second pulse on a battery. Only competitors seems to do the 10 + second pulsing of their battery. Well.... and those who forget to take their finger off the trigger. LoL I actually saw my buddy do that one night after yelling ! Man something wrong! My stuff is too hot to hold! (he was drunk) And 10 seconds is a very long time to be trying to pull as much air and vape into ones lungs as people try to do. No matter how hard I tired, I couldn't last 10 seconds. Even though I stopped cigs over two years ago, My lungs still don't' have the capability to do a 10 second thing with vaper moister in it. But anyway. My new hobby other than radio controlled airplanes and vaping will have another addition. Testing and Graphing all my batteries in everyway possible! I'm sure it'll be at least over a month before I even try to post a graph however. I need to learn the ins and outs of my new toys first. But some of it is on it's way to me as I type this.
    And Ty for the conversation, input and help.
     

    Mooch

    Electron Wrangler
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
  • May 13, 2015
    4,019
    15,900
    Glad to help. :)

    I posted a poll here recently asking vapers how long their draws are and how long they wait between draws. The most popular answers were 4 sec draws with 30-60 seconds (or longer) between them. While it sure seems that using pulsed discharges to simulate how a vaper uses a battery would be better, in my testing I haven't found that it changes how one cell rates versus another. But, I will also be doing pulsed testing in the future as it is certainly easier for vapers to relate to the results. I also tested using 15, 30, and 60 second waits between draws and it made almost no difference. The cell recovers sufficiently between discharges even at 15 seconds. I'll be using 4-6 second draws with 30 second rests in my tests.

    There is no other temperature sensor that works directly with the CBA than its own sensor, or an equivalent thermistor. You will need a separate thermometer. I use the Omegaette HH308 dual channel unit, with separate type-k thermocouples. IIRC, the HH309 version can connect to a PC to log the temperatures. I haven't found a need to do that yet because all I am interested in is the maximum temperature the cell reaches. You could export the CBA data to Excel and add the HH309 temperature data if you wanted to plot both on the graph though. There are a bunch of other great units out there that are fairly inexpensive, typically around $100, which would work just as well. You can use an infra-red temperature "gun" if you wanted to but it needs to have a narrow field-of-view and you'll need to paint the cells with a very thin layer of infrared opaque paint. You won't get an even remotely accurate temperature measurement off bare metal.

    My temperature limits and discharge current levels for my tests are mostly based on manufacturer data sheets for the cells. Their limits for charge, discharge, cycle life, etc., are what I use since we're using their cells. I think that would be the best place for you to start. Dig deep into the details though as they really matter. For example, the VTC5's datasheet shows a cycle life graph with a 30A discharge plot on it. This led a lot of people to believe that it was a 30A cell (it's only 20A). If you look at the parameters for that graph though you will see that the discharges had a temperature limit of only 75°C! Since the VTC5 reaches about 100°C at 30A, IIRC, the cell never heated up enough to reach the temperature it would if used at 30A. At this temperature the damage to the cell with each discharge has increased significantly so the cycle life graph was essentially useless for us vapers (since we don't have a way to limit cell temps in our mods).

    A couple parameters, like my 100°C safety limit, are based on reading dozens of research papers on cell thermal runaway. I urge you to do the same as you should never trust anyone else's safety setup. :)

    For testing of cells for vaping I have adjusted the parameters I have used for testing I do for clients. They'll typically come to me wanting specific tests at specific discharge levels. I record the temperatures (no matter what they are), voltages under load, and do cycle life testing to see the effect of those temperatures on the cells. But for vaping we have to have safety limits on temperatures to minimize the chance of cell venting or worse. I often saw temperature instabilities at higher temperatures in my client testing. They typically started at 90°C-105°C, depending on the cell. After stopping the discharge the temperature would not start dropping off continuously. It would surge up and down for a minute or two and then start dropping off. Certain exothermic reactions begin at about 75°C and really start accelerating at above that. This is what eventually leads to thermal runaway if not stopped. What I was seeing were these exothermic reactions right on the edge of really taking off. This also contributed to my setting 100°C as the absolute max temp for any cell in my 18650 Safety Grades table (see my signature for the link).

    Another source for the parameters I ended up using for my testing can be found in the industry and university research papers on cell cycle life, aging, thermal runaway, etc. You can often find out why each group used a certain cutoff temperature or other parameter by going through their testing setups.
     

    Mooch

    Electron Wrangler
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
  • May 13, 2015
    4,019
    15,900
    Here are the results of the Imren 40A 2500mAh shootout at 20A against the 25R and VTC5.
    The 25R hit a touch harder in this test but it's essentially a tie. You can see how the Imren did. :)

    Full test results to be posted later.

    image.jpg
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: IMFire3605

    Mooch

    Electron Wrangler
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
  • May 13, 2015
    4,019
    15,900
    Something to consider when looking at the above results, or anyone's test results....

    The seemingly huge difference in voltage between the Imren and the other two cells only converts to about a 4W-5W difference in power to the coil(s). Noticeable, certainly, but not as bad as the graphs can often make things seem.

    Having said that though, if I'm spending money I would definitely pick the 25R or VTC5. Probably the 25R as it's usually less expensive.
     

    suprtrkr

    ECF Guru
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Jun 22, 2014
    10,410
    15,049
    Cowtown, USA. Where the West begins.
    OK, I have one of those, unused. To be honest, I expect it to test out as a 20A battery. I''ve never seen a rewrapped battery test better than that as there just aren't any batteries available to us vapers that are rated higher than 30A. And only one at that level...the HB6.

    The VTC5 is a 20A battery so I can see how the Imren could seem to be performing as well as the VTC5. I don't think the Imren will do as well as the 25R or VTC4 though...or the Aspire or HD2 either. But the graph will tell all! :)

    I'm always willing to get me some new learnin' so I'll give the battery a good testing. It will take about two days to do the about 15 discharges it takes to test a higher-rated battery but I'll report back here when I've posted the results.
    I was hoping you'd say that... 40 amp batteries make me drool, not that I have an idea to use them immediately. But yes, it would be very nice if they were actually available. Reading through the thread, and from my tiny understanding, it appears to make sense they would be of lower capacity if they exhibit higher amperage capability. I await the test results. Thread watched.
     

    Tony M

    Full Member
    Nov 18, 2013
    46
    70
    Oklahoma City, Ok
    After having used my graphics program with it's line and graph tools. I'm going to go with the Imren at the 3.34v mark to where it seems to be the furthest of volt drop it's doing. And having drawn a straight line up to where the others Max volt drop occurs, I'm going to go with it being 3.58 or .59v. Quick subtraction shows this difference to be a .24v difference at about the 0.0160 1 0r2 Amphr mark. This .24v difference seems to be a 3.2w difference. The really interesting thing that I've noted from this difference is that in my mech mod, nor my human spider senses can seem to recognize this (as I stated previously here in this thread). However, when I put the same rda atop my Ipv3 and raise it's wattage up 3watts/.24v from 75w to 78w my senses do detect a difference. Slight, but a notable difference. Mostly of course it's a small temp change but not really a visible difference in the cloud produced nor much in a flavor intensity. This difference noticed is probably do to the electronics and the way the yihi chips does things.

    Basically we are talking 1/4 of a volt here and the difference between all three batteries gets less between one another until they all hit about the same voltage at around the 1.500AmpHr/ 1500mAh. In short, I too will say all three batteries are 20amp continuous batteries.

    Okay! Lets boycott these false advertising companies by gosh!:banana:

    Once I get my stuff set up, it'll also be interesting (for me at least) to take 10 of the same batteries and roll them through and see how far off even they can be from one another. Oh this battery testing is going to be FUN FUN FUN. I'm sure I'll be even more battery poor then I already am now. But it's all for the science and knowledge. Nothing is free as is said.

    I'm sure you've probably already done this type of thing Mooch. But soon, I too will have as much fun and perhaps I can help some of my local vape shop owners learn too and get them to stop giving their customers false information. I've tried to already with a bunch of argument at times with a few of them, but If I can get even one to see the "light" (I'll be armed with graphs to show em this time by gosh!)! Then I've done a good thing for our local vapers they sell to and who don't know.

    This all has been informative, fun and educational. I will speak for all when I say thank you for hanging in here and with me and putting all the information you have out here in ECF and to us! it's members/vapers. It's going to get more fun for me too when I do a graph and we can then compare and you can tell me how messed up it is and I am. LOL.o_O
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Mooch
    Status
    Not open for further replies.

    Users who are viewing this thread