Intolerant Dems in Congress urge State AGs to sue e-cig companies, include e-cigs in cigarette settlements, classify e-cigs as cigarettes

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Technohydra

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No misinformation, I'm afraid. Even simple googlefu supports these statements. State supreme justices (or whatever is appropriate, the name actually varies by state) can be removed (typically by an impeachment process), can be disbarred, and are not necessarily appointed for life. The process for each of these items varies by state. The US supreme court is different than the state circuits. Cite examples of misinformation with source, or just let the thread die it's now inevitable death...which is sad. This was an important issue to be aware of...
 

Thursby

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No misinformation, I'm afraid. Even simple googlefu supports these statements. State supreme justices (or whatever is appropriate, the name actually varies by state) can be removed (typically by an impeachment process), can be disbarred, and are not necessarily appointed for life. The process for each of these items varies by state. The US supreme court is different than the state circuits. Cite examples of misinformation with source, or just let the thread die it's now inevitable death...which is sad. This was an important issue to be aware of...

The misinformation of which I speak has nothing to do with what the judges of the state supreme court are called, or whether they can be removed from office. I don't even know why you brought that up in the first place. I talked specifically about federal judges because this issue would almost assuredly be litigated in federal court. I am a licensed Texas attorney who practices in both state and federal court... I am quite familiar with the terms of our state judges because I am approached to make campaign donations every election cycle.

No, what I have been saying this entire time is that a judge would not be punished in any way whatsoever for making a ruling that was inconsistent with the law. It happens all the time. Judges often hate being overruled, and it can be quite embarrassing. That's the extent of their "punishment." I really don't know why you insist on pushing the issue.
 

Bill Godshall

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Please keep this thread (and other threads) on topic.

Waxman has been lobbying to ban e-cigs since 2009 when Waxman's former staffer Josh Sharfstein was appointed by Obama as Deputy Commissioner of FDA, where he subsequently banned and lied about e-cigs before getting his (and Obama's) ... kicked in federal court.

I'd be surprised if any State AG was foolish enough to follow Waxman's recommendation (as they'd lose in court, and would probably be laughed out of court, which wouldn't help their future political careers).

Then again, if some State AG's follow Waxman's absurd advice, they too (like Waxman) will be looking for new jobs.
 

Technohydra

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The misinformation of which I speak has nothing to do with what the judges of the state supreme court are called, or whether they can be removed from office. I don't even know why you brought that up in the first place. I talked specifically about federal judges because this issue would almost assuredly be litigated in federal court. I am a licensed Texas attorney who practices in both state and federal court... I am quite familiar with the terms of our state judges because I am approached to make campaign donations every election cycle.

No, what I have been saying this entire time is that a judge would not be punished in any way whatsoever for making a ruling that was inconsistent with the law. It happens all the time. Judges often hate being overruled, and it can be quite embarrassing. That's the extent of their "punishment." I really don't know why you insist on pushing the issue.

Ah, ok, I see where the issue lies. I do concede the point, you are correct. I don't know why my head got wrapped up in that particular issue...it has been a long week, perhaps. Also transitioning clients at the moment, so I'm sure my head isn't on straight. Kindly accept my apology if insult has been perceived; it was not intended.
 

Technohydra

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Please keep this thread (and other threads) on topic.

Waxman has been lobbying to ban e-cigs since 2009 when Waxman's former staffer Josh Sharfstein was appointed by Obama as Deputy Commissioner of FDA, where he subsequently banned and lied about e-cigs before getting his (and Obama's) ... kicked in federal court.

I'd be surprised if any State AG was foolish enough to follow Waxman's recommendation (as they'd lose in court, and would probably be laughed out of court, which wouldn't help their future political careers).

Then again, if some State AG's follow Waxman's absurd advice, they too (like Waxman) will be looking for new jobs.

Apologies Bill, I'll take the blame on this one.
 

MD_Boater

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Can't we take up a collection and hire us some lawyers to sue states for passing laws to get MSA funds? The real reason that they are trying to ban eCigs. It dries up the MSA funding.

I say that offering additional MSA funding as a reward to counties and states that include eCigs in smoking bans, is in fact bribery and clearly represents a quid pro quo arrangement. The laws should be annulled, and the persons that offered and/or facilitated the additional MSA funding in exchange should be prosecuted. If more than one person is responsible, then it should be considered a RICO violation.
 

DC2

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The whole, "the truth will triumph, and facts will rule the day" business ended at 4 O'clock when your cartoons were done for the day. Real life is a dirty - and often times intentionally convoluted place.

They are getting there ducks in a row and testing boundaries.

Seat belts and helmets kids...
I rarely wear seat belts, I will forever refuse to wear a helmet, and I'm not a kid.
Where does that leave me? Oh, yeah, disenfranchised.
 

sonicdsl

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The misinformation of which I speak has nothing to do with what the judges of the state supreme court are called, or whether they can be removed from office. I don't even know why you brought that up in the first place. I talked specifically about federal judges because this issue would almost assuredly be litigated in federal court. I am a licensed Texas attorney who practices in both state and federal court... I am quite familiar with the terms of our state judges because I am approached to make campaign donations every election cycle.

No, what I have been saying this entire time is that a judge would not be punished in any way whatsoever for making a ruling that was inconsistent with the law. It happens all the time. Judges often hate being overruled, and it can be quite embarrassing. That's the extent of their "punishment." I really don't know why you insist on pushing the issue.

Is it possible for you to join CASAA by chance? :D
 

Thursby

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Can't we take up a collection and hire us some lawyers to sue states for passing laws to get MSA funds? The real reason that they are trying to ban eCigs. It dries up the MSA funding.

I can appreciate the sentiment, but, no. I'm afraid things don't work that way. You cannot sue a state simply for passing a law. In order to bring a lawsuit against a state to challenge a law, you must have standing. To have standing, there are three requirements: 1) Injury; 2) Causation; 3) Redressability. You can read more about these requirements here, but the bottom line is this: until you personally have suffered an actual or imminent injury as a result of the law in question and that injury can be redressed by the court (repeal a law, award monetary damages, order an injunction, etc.), any lawsuit you bring will be thrown out so fast it'll make your head spin.

I say that offering additional MSA funding as a reward to counties and states that include eCigs in smoking bans, is in fact bribery and clearly represents a quid pro quo arrangement. The laws should be annulled, and the persons that offered and/or facilitated the additional MSA funding in exchange should be prosecuted. If more than one person is responsible, then it should be considered a RICO violation.

You can call it bribery if you want, but Congress calls it "incentivizing" and it is nothing new. When the federal government wants to push an agenda on something that is constitutionally outside the purview of the federal government's power to govern, Congress merely proposes model legislation and conditions the continued receipt of federal funding on the enactment of a state law that is in line with the model legislation. It's entirely legal, and it happens all the time. By way of for instance, it happened recently with Obamacare, when the federal government wanted states to expand the coverage of Medicaid. Some states declined to acquiesce, and as a result, lost a not insignificant amount of federal funding.

Is it possible for you to join CASAA by chance? :D

It's not outside the realm of possibility!
 
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There is no nationwide MSA as such, there are individual settlement agreements between the participating manufacturers and each state. As part of those agreements, each state has passed a model escrow statute.

Who can complain about how the states spend the money? Probably no one. At most a manufacturer can refuse to pay into the state's escrow account (or pay taxes if it's a non-participating manufacturer). Otherwise the money is no different than any money that the states collect via taxes and fees.

One can view this as a matter of standing if one wishes, but I think this obscures the fundamental nature of the problem. Anyone with standing can complain about what a state does with its money. But since money is fungible, claims can't be premised on the fact that the state took the money from pocket A versus pocket B.

(Yes, perhaps one could imagine a hypothetical in which a state has specific laws governing how its internal books are kept. And perhaps state Agency X can file an action against state Agency Y or the state gov't on that state law basis ... but we're getting into fantasy land here.)

***

Could a state "bribe" a local jurisdiction to pass anti-vaping ordinances? Sure, why not? Seems a bit silly, though. The legislature might as well pass the same legislation statewide, and keep the dough at the statewide level :) A legislature might even pass different types of vaping statutes for different local jurisdictions. (I know that in my home state of IN, there are statutes which are specifically written so that they apply differently to counties of different sizes. This is due to Lake & Marion Co.s usually.)

There might be a state which has certain provisions in its constitution limiting the power of the state gov't over local jurisdictions, I suppose. But in most states, local jurisdictions are "creations" of the state gov't, so-to-speak. State and local gov'ts are generally not considered "separate sovereignties," in the same way as the states and the nat'l gov't are. (To put it another way, comity and fed'lism are excusively national concepts. Consider the classic example: the fed'l gov't can't tell a state where to locate its capital. But I suspect most state legislatures could tell their co.s where to put the co. seat.)

***

One picky quibble: I don't think any claimant can ask a fed'l court to order any jurisdiction to repeal a statute or ordinance - viz. no such remedy exists. A court could enjoin enforcement of the statute or any action taken pursuant to it, of course.

(It's possible that such an animal exists on the state level: i.e. maybe there's some state court somewhere which is empowered under state law to order a state legislature and governer to repeal a state statute, or order a local jurisdiction to repeal a local ord.)
 

Thursby

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One picky quibble: I don't think any claimant can ask a fed'l court to order any jurisdiction to repeal a statute or ordinance - viz. no such remedy exists. A court could enjoin enforcement of the statute or any action taken pursuant to it, of course.

It's not a remedy one asks for, but it is a "remedy" in terms of redressability. If a claimant alleges that a statute is unconstitutional and is subsequently found to be so by the court, that statute is overturned and no longer has the force of law. Of course, I do not anticipate that happening in an instance involving e-cigs, I was merely providing examples to illustrate what "redress" means because I tend to err on the side of providing more information rather than less.

And you are correct... municipalities are not separate sovereigns, but I don't think anyone said otherwise, unless I missed something.
 

Luisa

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In a way, I actually hope that one of the AG's tries this; I would love to have the legal precedent set that this tactic can't work, and there's no faster way to do that then to lose a case in federal court. On the other hand, there is some good news. I understand we will be losing Harkin as an opponent in the near future (if I'm remembering this correctly), and one has to wonder if this group is kinda viewed in the legal circles as those parents that think that rap music will send you to hell; a little off tilt to everyone else? I would love to think this is the case, as from my perspective, it looks a bit wacko.

I have this vision that all these people do all day is sit around with legal texts and try to find every loophole possible to further the agenda, even if it will fail. There is no 'bad' publicity for a 'just cause', and so forth. The upside to me is there are precious few avenues left for them to try to stuff vaping into anymore, the supply has been exhausted and defeated surprisingly well and early.

In my mind (which is elemental chaos made substant), this is hopefully one of the last impotent drops falling after what was a determined stream of tort. The major concerns to me are still the FDA (which I am more optimistic than I should be about) and the attempted kneecappings like the California shipment bans. I would appreciate a bit of an analysis from Bill as to what he thinks the true scope and risk of this move by the politico is, as this is an interesting, and seemingly desperate, maneuver by what I'm hoping is a dying breed. This tactic interests me, and I'd like a look at the larger picture from your lookout stand.

As always, thanks to Mr. Godshall for his vigilance and great works for us. You and I don't always agree, but we are always fighting for the same goals, and I salute you.
Waxman is retiring,but he will be in office another year. I should imagine that his replacement will be no better,but we can hope.
 

Luisa

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I actually only partially agree with this, to be fair. Yes, we are mixing in politics, which muddies the court waters. However, money isn't the only factor in court battles, the facts actually do matter. Reason being , in a 'real life' court scenario, if a judge makes a ruling that contradicts the legal statutes, they can either be brought up on judicial review or simply flat-out disbarred and lose their careers permantly.

Additionally, a ruling which violates the due process of one or both parties can be reviewed and overturned by the supreme court circuits, and while far from ideal, this can still equate out to a long-arm victory.

In my opinion, the attempt to draw the ecig 'industy' into an established ruling is the equivalent of you being sued for wrongful death when your next door neighbor is the person that was solely involved in the fatality; the industry has no part or liability in the alleged harm that took place before the industry was even in existance. I am unaware of a legal strategy that would place someone elses civil burden on an uninvolved party. A suit of this type would almost certainly fail, if not be dismissed out of hand as frivolous.

I maintain that the sky is not in fact falling, but it is a bit cloudy. And with all cloudy skies, we need to keep watch for violent storms on the horizon. As Bill said, I severly doubt this is a real threat as it stands now, but it does bear watching.
Money really is the issue. If we had a great deal of money,we could tie up all these people for years in the courts. They would have to provide evidence to support their "misinformation"--and they likely would lose. We do not have that kind of money. The costs would be millions of dollars.
 

Luisa

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Personally I don't see the Republicans coming to the rescue. The only argument I've ever seen in defense of that is that Fox News has on a few occasions taken what appears to be a "pro-vaping" stance. But if you look closely, they aren't reporting about ECF, or Kanger, or Provari, or any of the wonderful e-liquid manufacturers out there. They're reporting about store bought cigalikes made by Big Tobacco. When I see the Republican politicians coming out defiantly in support of vaping rights, then I'll consider this a "Democrat" anomaly. Otherwise it's the politicians in general, not the party they belong to.
It has been basically Democrat politicians and Democrat appointed people in the Government Health Agencies who have begun the fight against e-cigs.They have constantly distorted the truth. I am not trying to be partisan--just stating the reality.
 

Thursby

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I'd like to know how they can try to collect taxes when 99% of all e-cig/PV mfrs are in China.

Through import tariffs and levying taxes on retailers. The former has too many political implications, though, so it would likely be the latter.

They could also do an "indirect" tax by requiring nicotine liquid manufacturers to obtain some form of licensing.
 
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