Intro...5 months off cigs, loving vaping, need advice

[tailland]

If you get the Cascade, be sure to check this list of compatible coils (1st hit)
(can't paste the link directly, this forum software breaks it every time i try)

 

[somdcomputerguy]

50+ compatible coils

You might want to fix that link..

 

[tailland]

i tried but the forum software breaks the link eveytime, so i have used a redirector

 

[stols001]

So I've used ceramic on occasion and I think that rumor about ceramic being bad comes from Wismec? They released some post and "testing" (it was not extensive) apologizing for their lack of release of their ceramic coil, and they were the ones that stated ceramic was risky because it could "Crumble" or some such, and they were worried about particulate in the vape, and issued a blanket warning against ceramic coils generally and stated they would not be releasing one.

I think that had more with WISMEC's inability to create a ceramic coil that worked than ceramic generally and I also have to wonder JUST HOW CRUMBLY ceramic would have to GET to be "inhaled" through the drip tip and everything else..

My experience with ceramic has been that they are quite hard, somewhat durable, and also I have NEVER seen any warnings about ceramic other than Wismec's and they truthfully weren't that convincing it was more of a "we can't do it so no one should," sort of thing. Nor have I noted any complaints of users of ceramic coils of them crumbling, or any poor health effects in myself.

But I am ONE person, so take that for what it's worth, I didn't keep the link but I bet you could search for it, etc.

Anna

I think it was Wiismec. It could have been some other maker. It was definitely ONE manufacturer though....

 

[tailland]

Nor have I noted any complaints of users of ceramic coils of them crumbling, or any poor health effects in myself.

Besides his testimony, I don't trust ceramic coils for the exact reason Uwell cited when asked why they won't produce ceramic coils. I quit smoking to improve my health, and potentially inhaling silica particles would render that goal null and void. That's simply not going to happen.

 

[MadClowdz]

Besides his testimony, I don't trust ceramic coils for the exact reason Uwell cited when asked why they won't produce ceramic coils. I quit smoking to improve my health, and potentially inhaling silica particles would render that goal null and void. That's simply not going to happen.

So what's your take on stainless steel?

 

[tailland]

So what's your take on stainless steel?

For the time between now and the future in which we won't use heating coils anymore, I find SS to be an ok solution.

• SS (or NiCr) is chemically and temperature resistant, and resistant to forming an oxidation layer = likelihood of crusty rust getting into my liquid is rather small to begin with.
• Consequently, the use of a "coil brush" of unknown material provenance (aka common wire brush, aka a deliberately-turn-metal-surface-layer-to-dust-and-be-certain-to-have-particles-all-over-your-coil) is not a thing. Cleaning a factory new or prematurely gunked up coil with a drop of alc and a rinse of water gets the job done better than scratching the coil with a metal brush, or doing a "dry burn" on it. And because of that, I'm not particularly afraid of Cr/oxide particles either.

I prefer that over "porous ceramic material" any given day.

Sidenote: Here's what I think happened to Daniel (guy in the vid), which of course I cannot possibly prove, but it makes sense to me:

• Repeatedly stressing "respiratory problems" is not a description for an excessive throat hit, or the feeling of having vaped a nasty-tasting liquid. I suspect his liquid was full of silica particles, injuring his throat and upper lung area, giving him an constant undercurrent of scratching pain, lasting for days. While the specific reaction to such exposure may differ in indviduals, it cannot be denied that "something" coming from the coils has caused that for him, and other people like him. Noone should inhale that "something".
• I don't think these particles have formed as the result of heat, exposure to juice, or handling the coil, but during the production process of the material itself. After all, the base material for producing 3D porous ceramics is more or less particle dust. Whether the process was too chinese (low-quality), and left free particle matter in the coil, or whether this is generally unavoidable and must be solved by cleaning the material after its creation (if possible), I don't know.

What I do know is that I'm not going to be a lab rat for that industry.
Hope that makes sense.

 

[Old Greybeard]

Welcome @MadClowdz, great to have you on-board.

I know that most vapers say mouth-to-lung is the best way for beginners coming off of cigarettes. But I went straight to direct-to-lung. Once I got used to the vape itself, it just seemed more natural. MTL on a cigarette is necessary because if you try and just inhale a puff it burns. Not so with vaping.

Couldn't agree more, in fact it was the kicker for me, I'm not totally off the cigarettes yet, but I'm down to 5 a day and mixing my own juice, building my own coils etc. and I've been vaping less than a month.

You'll find vaping has an addictive quality of its own, not so much from the juices and nicotine, but from a psychological perspective. I roll my own cigarettes, and really enjoyed the ritual. I'm finding more and more that vaping is pushing that out, as I get into the DIY bit.

 

[ExtremeDooty]

For the time between now and the future in which we won't use heating coils anymore, I find SS to be an ok solution.

• SS (or NiCr) is chemically and temperature resistant, and resistant to forming an oxidation layer = likelihood of crusty rust getting into my liquid is rather small to begin with.
• Consequently, the use of a "coil brush" of unknown material provenance (aka common wire brush, aka a deliberately-turn-metal-surface-layer-to-dust-and-be-certain-to-have-particles-all-over-your-coil) is not a thing. Cleaning a factory new or prematurely gunked up coil with a drop of alc and a rinse of water gets the job done better than scratching the coil with a metal brush, or doing a "dry burn" on it. And because of that, I'm not particularly afraid of Cr/oxide particles either.

I prefer that over "porous ceramic material" any given day.

Sidenote: Here's what I think happened to Daniel (guy in the vid), which of course I cannot possibly prove, but it makes sense to me:

• Repeatedly stressing "respiratory problems" is not a description for an excessive throat hit, or the feeling of having vaped a nasty-tasting liquid. I suspect his liquid was full of silica particles, injuring his throat and upper lung area, giving him an constant undercurrent of scratching pain, lasting for days. While the specific reaction to such exposure may differ in indviduals, it cannot be denied that "something" coming from the coils has caused that for him, and other people like him. Noone should inhale that "something".
• I don't think these particles have formed as the result of heat, exposure to juice, or handling the coil, but during the production process of the material itself. After all, the base material for producing 3D porous ceramics is more or less particle dust. Whether the process was too chinese (low-quality), and left free particle matter in the coil, or whether this is generally unavoidable and must be solved by cleaning the material after its creation (if possible), I don't know.

What I do know is that I'm not going to be a lab rat for that industry.
Hope that makes sense.

I have been using ceramic coils for over a year now and have not had any "respiratory problems" nor have I seen any silica particles in my juice. Therefore ceramic coils are perfectly safe to use. My science is just as well researched and proven as yours. When I was younger there was a research study done that "proved" mother's milk causes cancer in lab rats. If you want to believe in unproven nonsense, that's your business, don't use ceramic coils. Respiratory problems; Where's the doctor's report. Juice full of silica particles; and you know this How? I call BS.

 

[tailland]

Quoting myself is a bit silly, but it looks like it has to be done...

I don't trust ceramic coils for the exact reason Uwell cited when asked why they won't produce ceramic coils.

The large text above is a hyperlink. Click it, and read the linked document. It illuminates the potential dangers of using ceramic material, and my interpretation concurs with the things described in that document.

Concerning Daniel's reaction: The reason why he links his respiratory problems to the ceramic coils is only logical.

You observe 2 events, which you know to have different factors which cause their overall outcome.
Event1 : n1 × n2 × n3 × n.. = Result(A)
Event2 : n1 × n2 × !n3 × n.. = !Result(A)
Occam's razor justifies the assumption that the exchange of n3 for !n3 is the cause for the difference in outcome.

And, again, the subjective impact on his side is determined by his physiology. Which we don't know. I can punch 2 people in the face on the same spot, with the same amount of force, and while person A's jaw breaks from that, person B is completely unphased. People's bodies react differently to harmful forces. And everyone knows that to be so, especially us ex-smokers, which why "I don't have that problem" holds as much argumentative power as big tobacco's "smoking doesn't cause cancer because most smokers don't get cancer". None.

Sidenotes:
- I hope you were just being facetious when writing "nor have I seen any silica particles in my juice" - those particles cannot be seen with the naked eye, because they're too small.
- Silicosis is a real thing.

 

[stols001]

I will admit to some vague lurking doubt when it comes to ceramic coils, I don't have many of them and they make me slightly edgy.

I've never had a problem with them though and although I don't use them extensively I have used then with no ill effects. I'd probably be more frightened of nickel though, really.

I have also noticed no degradation of my ceramic coils either although I will freely admit that well, I don't stare at them under an electron microscope, either.

I think this is one of those personal risk/decisions though, but as far as I have seen I haven't seen a TON of stuff stating ceramic coils are super harmful but I may just have not looked hard enough, etc.

I am going to bet that ceramic is safer than many cigarette filters on the market.

I am also going to say that all risk is relative in comparison to the steady march of science (I mean hopefully). I once read a therapy book from the 30s where the therapist was lovingly describing her method of like, creating "Therapy talking dolls" out of layered sheets of Asbsetos which I'm pretty sure was bad for kid and therapist alike, etc.

Anna

 

[ExtremeDooty]

Here's the problem. Uwell broke a coil and determined that sharp edges exist and can get in your lungs. Then they scrape a coil and produce silica particles that they say can get into your lung. Then they overheat the coil material to its melting point and produce oxidation that they say can get into your lung. They point out little black dots admitting that they don't know what they are, but they must be bad and can get in your lungs. Yet they offer no proof that all this stuff actually gets to anyone's lung.

VaporShark did an independent third party test. Like the majority of users, they didn't break, scrape or overheat the coil, but they did run the resultant vapor through a filter. They tested the filter and found no silica or glass particles, silica powder or mysterious black dots infesting the filter. The Uwell testing is junk science looking to prove a pre-ordained outcome.

Here's a link to Phil Busardo's blog and the test results:

Taste Your Juice | VAPORESSO CCELL TESTING IS NOW IN!

 

[medleypat]

I don't use ceramic coils not because they're dangerous but because they don't work with my style of gaping. I agree with extremely unwell tried to make a ceramic coil and couldn't so came out and said they are unsafe a lot of people use them with no problem. Saying Daniel's problems were caused by particles coming from the coils without proof is just as bad as junk science against vaping you think ceramic is bad so you make assumptions without knowing the facts.

 

[tailland]

Here's the problem...

Firstly, Uwell did break the coils, but says so, and only to demonstrate how the debris looks like IF you break it (page4). And breaking the material is rather easy as we learn - "pinching" is sufficient, which then releases powder (page2) - which btw I believe I have seen Daniel doing in one of his videos, but the coil was unusable after that, so that can't have been the source of his problems.

Secondly, in ADDITION to the problem above, they also describe what happens during the production process of the material (page5). A part of the powder that cannot be molded into the produced material and will instead stick to its surface, and falls off easily(page5).

Thirdly, the black spots in the material shouldn't be there. What kind of impurity it is, they don't know for certain, but given they know the production process, they might well have an idea what it could be, so if they assume it could be toxic, who am I to object?

VaporShark did an independent third party test. Like the majority of users, they didn't break, scrape or overheat the coil, but they did run the resultant vapor through a filter. They tested the filter and found no silica or glass particles, silica powder or mysterious black dots infesting the filter.

How nice.

The contractor tested 1 type of coil, didn't care how easily it might break during everyday use, didn't care what happens if it breaks, and all they did, was to look into a microscope with 40x magnification if they can see any particulate matter on the filter after pushing some vapor thru it. And that they didn't finy any - which is quite surprising, given that several studies (unrelated to ceramic coils) have claimed to have found exactly that. Then again, maybe that's not so surprising, given they probably looked at more than a single cellulose filter, whose filtering abilities concerning silica particles wasn't explained either in the report. Finally, no explanation was given for the filter's weight gain at the end of the experiment.

Uwell on the other hand looked at 3 differet coils, with up to 100x magnification, and concluded from their preliminary findings, that going forward with this wasn't worth the effort.

The Uwell testing is junk science looking to prove a pre-ordained outcome.

I don't have any mind-reading capabilities, so I can't comment on that. And yes, we have different concepts of what constitutes good science. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Brewdawg1181]

Actually, I don't believe either studies are good science, or anywhere near conclusive. This quote from Uwell:"After comparing their microstructure and powder size, we can see it is harmful to health." is quite a leap, considering their study didn't delve into anything to do with proving the particles (which are saturated in liquid) are actually going into the vapor produced. If they prove that, then they have a link that would make the quote above valid. And it is pretty good that they're refusing to make them for the time being.

Don't get me wrong - their study was far better than VaporShark's. Things do get broken, abused, and overheated, right? And it tells me enough to know that I wouldn't use ceramic, unless it's proven that it's impossible to introduce the particles into the vapor. I'm pretty happy using SS anyway (and not dry-firing it).

 

[tailland]

Actually, I don't believe either studies are good science, or anywhere near conclusive.

Not everything that happens in a lab, is a scientific study. At least not in the narrower academic sense.

Uwell's document is an everted version of an internal report on the viability of future investments in the matter. Infact, we don't know what research they did. We only get told about a few select findings. The "Vapor Shark" lab test, conducted in parts by 2 different contractors, is just that - a lab test - to answer a singular question in regard to 1 specific test sample. Surely they hoped to ease their customers' minds and sell more CCells with that.

Ok. Both are legitimate endeavours. I'm glad that Uwell shared a few findings with their customer base. VS' lab test however doesn't impress me, at all.

Don't get me wrong - their study was far better than VaporShark's. Things do get broken, abused, and overheated, right? And it tells me enough...

Spot on. Both documents do not present anything that could be generalised, but to think that both documents are equally worthless as a source of information, that's just not true.

 

[ExtremeDooty]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.

 

[tailland]

[del]

 

[MadClowdz]

So many options out there it makes my head hurt, lol...Just ordered a Voopoo Drag. Now I need another tank...looking at Apollo Pulsar, Uwell Valerian, Scion 2, Horizontch Falcon...really curious what the wood pulp/cotton blend coils taste like...as far as mods, I want to eventually pick up one "high end" device on the $150-$200 range just to see what they're like. Eyeballing the Lost Vape Triade DNA250c...any thoughts on any of these products are welcome!

 

[MadClowdz]

So I decided to go with the Uwell Valyrian and it pairs up nicely with the Drag. Actually, it looks sick with the Eleaf Tessera, so I might end up throwing the Crown III on the Drag. I like this mod, one cool feature is you can customize the power-up screen so I have it saying "MADCLOWDZ" with a little angry cloud next to it...sweet...lol. This mod fires up a lot faster than either my Kroma-A or Tessera. Ramp up time is almost instantaneous.

Only issue is I thought I ordered the jade green mod, but apparently i ordered the rainbow instead and didn't catch it in time. I emailed VaporDNA to see about an exchange, but I don't want to lose my cool new mod for a week waiting for me to ship this one back and get another one, etc. The rainbow is actually growing on me.
I've got a pair of Hohm Life 18650s in them now, they came free with my order. My local vape shop guy was really down on them though, calling them cheap LG re-wraps that he would never use. But I looked up the company and they seem pretty legit. They actually re-engineer LG batteries and optimize them for vaping mods, and they have a deal with the company to do it. I also got a pair of Sony VTC5As from the vape shop and I'll switch them out in a few days and see how they perform. Mooch does now have the Hohm Life/Work batteries on his chart so maybe people are coming around about them.
Still waiting on the first full charge for the vape but so far the Valyrian hits like a champ. Air flow is ridiculous.
I had a long talk with the vape shop guy about starting to build my own RTAs. He recommended it and said one reason is you can know exactly what kind of coil material you are putting in there, and the shop has an independent lab that tests all their wire for toxins, etc...that got me very interested, as I am vaping because I believe it is not hurtful to my body and infinitely better than cigarettes. Last thing I need is a new source of heavy metal toxins going into my body. He said come in on a Sunday morning and he'll sit down with me and show me how to build.