Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside

[VNeil]

You have access to this medical information on individuals ........ how?

Oh, wait, you read anecdotals on internet forums..........I guess that qualifies as a "study" now.

I remember when Dr. F. tested all those eliquids and 10% had more than 100 times higher diacetyl levels than the current safety limits.

"diacetyl exposure causes a decline in lung function which can be detected by a reduction in FEV1".......so if you have some tests on 100+ people showing they do NOT have reduced FEV1 results while vaping DA/AP heavy eliquids, then post the study up.

You seem rather upset with the idea that, while there are millions and millions of vapers, and people have been vaping for at least 6 years, not one has come forward and said that his/her lungs have been damaged by vaping. Not one has come forward. Nor has a single doctor reported a case. Much less a statistically meaningful number.

And as I've discussed previously, you are so upset you feel the need to put words in my mouth. I did not say there are none. I just suggested if they are out there, they are very strangely silent. Occam's Razor suggests they are so silent because they do not exist. But you might want to expend some of your anger at finding them. If vaping is damaging people then it is reasonable to assume that, at minimum, 10% are damaged. That gives you hundreds of thousands of lung damaged people out there. Find a couple and prove me wrong.

It is amazing how badly people want to shoot the messenger who delivers this very simple fact. They simply WANT TO BELIEVE that vaping is harmful. I guess.

 

[YoursTruli]

I really do not understand this or like debates on the safety or threat of diketones, seriously, if someone wants to believe they are harmless and anyone with an opposite view is crazy keep vaping them and if someone wants to believe they are a known risk that is avoidable and anyone with an opposite view is crazy stop vaping them.
One side is never going to change the mind of the other side, lets face it, you could come in here after a major study that proves they are extremely safe/hazardous and still have the ones who refuse to believe it and willing to argue their point of view to the death.

 

[sparkky1]

I really do not understand this or like debates on the safety or threat of diketones, seriously, if someone wants to believe they are harmless and anyone with an opposite view is crazy keep vaping them and if someone wants to believe they are a known risk that is avoidable and anyone with an opposite view is crazy stop vaping them.
One side is never going to change the mind of the other side, lets face it, you could come in here after a major study that proves they are extremely safe/hazardous and still have the ones who refuse to believe it and willing to argue their point of view to the death.

Indeed that is why you won't hear it from your doctor / B&M vendor / online vendor / juice manufacture, are they going to tell you we substituted it with this new X chemical and it's proven to be much safer so you have no need to worry ?

 

[VNeil]

I remember when Dr. F. tested all those eliquids and 10% had more than 100 times higher diacetyl levels than the current safety limits.

*IF*, IF, those limits are based on solid science then it should be easy to find people with vape damaged lungs. Rather than attack my simple observation of a fact that no one has been able to dispute here, why not find some of those lung damaged vapers? Surely they are out there. They've been continually exposed to 100x the safety standard. They must be very sick. If they are that sick, they must be seeking medical attention. Find their doctors.

When a theory simply does not hold up to the facts, it is the theory that must be abandoned. Not the facts.

"There are no known reported cases of lung damage attributed to vaping"

That is a simple fact I stated, and I speculated no further. I merely stated an observation. If you have a pet theory that suggests vaping is harmful then perhaps you need to rethink your theory. Attacking my simple observation without factually discrediting it only suggests that you refuse to admit the emperor has no clothes.

 

[VNeil]

I really do not understand this or like debates on the safety or threat of diketones, seriously, if someone wants to believe they are harmless and anyone with an opposite view is crazy keep vaping them and if someone wants to believe they are a known risk that is avoidable and anyone with an opposite view is crazy stop vaping them.
One side is never going to change the mind of the other side, lets face it, you could come in here after a major study that proves they are extremely safe/hazardous and still have the ones who refuse to believe it and willing to argue their point of view to the death.

I want to reiterate, for about the 6th time now, that I *did not* debate the safety of diketones. Nor did I render an opinion as to inhaling them. I merely presented an observational fact that no one has actually been able to challenge. They preferred to viciously attack me, a mere messenger of that observational fact, and attack me for things I never said or implied.

No one has come forward claiming lung damage, after 6 years of vaping history. Popcorn factory workers were found to have lung damage after only one year.

You are free to do whatever you wish with that factual truth- no one has reported lung damage, not the vaper, nor his/her doctors. I offer you no advice.

The real mystery here is not the safety of diketones. The real mystery is why so many people react so poorly when handed a simple observational fact.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

I loves the dyketones in my vape and will keep vaping them. I did not start vaping for harm reduction.

With that said I support full disclosure of ingredients.

 

[YoursTruli]

No one has come forward claiming lung damage, after 6 years of vaping history. Popcorn factory workers were found to have lung damage after only one year.

You are free to do whatever you wish with that factual truth- no one has reported lung damage, not the vaper, nor his/her doctors. I offer you no advice.

The real mystery here is not the safety of diketones. The real mystery is why so many people react so poorly when handed a simple observational fact.

Blanket statements are never a good idea....I would encourage you to research the facts that are out there now concerning the popcorn factory workers and the trail of clinical discovery.

 

[VNeil]

Blanket statements are never a good idea....I would encourage you to research the facts that are out there now concerning the popcorn factory workers and the trail of clinical discovery.

I have. Why don't you enlighten me with the precise point(s) you take issue with.

 

[zoiDman]

I really Don't Care what the Next person Vapes. Just like I really Don't Care if they use the same RTA or same Brand of Battery that I use.

What I do Care About is if a person contacts a Retailer/OEM and Asks them if there is Diacetyl and or Acetyl Propionyl present in an e-Liquid, that they receive an Honest answer.

BTW - I think the Entire Issue of Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl will go away soon. Because I do Not see the FDA Allowing either one to be Used once the FDA has the Authority to Regulate e-Liquids that contain Nicotine. So for Non-DIY vapers, Da and AP will become a Non-Issue.

BTW2 - PPM is a Unit Less Measurement. It Isn't until someone Quantifies the "Parts" with a unit that it becomes Meaningful and Comparative.

For the context that Vapers are usually using PPM when describing an amount of Da and or AP in an e-Liquid, Micrograms per Milliliter (ug/ml) would probably be a Less Confusing measure.

 

[sparkky1]

I really Don't Care what the Next person Vapes. Just like I really Don't Care if they use the same RTA or same Brand of Battery that I use.

What I do Care About is if a person contacts a Retailer/OEM and Asks them if there is Diacetyl and or Acetyl Propionyl present in an e-Liquid, that they receive an Honest answer.

BTW - I think the Entire Issue of Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl will go away soon. Because I do Not see the FDA Allowing either one to be Used once the FDA has the Authority to Regulate e-Liquids that contain Nicotine. So for Non-DIY vapers, Da and AP will become a Non-Issue.

BTW2 - PPM is a Unit Less Measurement. It Isn't until someone Quantifies the "Parts" with a unit that it becomes Meaningful and Comparative.

For the context that Vapers are usually using PPM when describing an amount of Da and or AP in an e-Liquid, Micrograms per Milliliter (ug/ml) would probably be a Less Confusing measure.

Why would they not allow it ? both diacetyl and acetoin are in analogs, surely if they were that bad they would have banned them or taken them out ?
Have you heard of the FDA "black label warning" ? but they still let the consumers keep on buying ...........

 

[skoony]

BTW - I think the Entire Issue of Diacetyl and Acetyl Propionyl will go away soon. Because I do Not see the FDA Allowing either one to be Used once the FDA has the Authority to Regulate e-Liquids that contain Nicotine. So for Non-DIY vapers, Da and AP will become a Non-Issue.

they probably will along with citrus flavors.
http://tinyurl.com/o86xt8m
this is some nasty stuff.
regards
mike

 

[zoiDman]

Why would they not allow it ? both diacetyl and acetoin are in analogs, surely if they were that bad they would have banned them or taken them out ?
Have you heard of the FDA "black label warning" ? but they still let the consumers keep on buying ...........

I think the FDA is looking at the Current work of people like Dr. Ann Hubbs et al and taking the position that Da and AP are not a required component of an e-Liquid.

 

[zoiDman]

they probably will along with citrus flavors.
Citrus food flavouring is genotoxic, says EFSA
this is some nasty stuff.
regards
mike

The FDA is going to Ban a Lot of Flavorings IMO.

BTW - I wonder how may ml's of Citrus e-Liquid I would have to Vape for my Liver to be Exposed to "700mg per kilo bodyweight per day"

 

[Rossum]

they probably will along with citrus flavors.
Citrus food flavouring is genotoxic, says EFSA
this is some nasty stuff.
regards
mike

As usual, the dose makes the poison. They had to go to 700 mg/kg of bodyweight in order to find "statistically significant" problems. I weigh in at a bit over 70 kg. I'd have to consume 50 grams of that stuff to get there...

 

[sparkky1]

Your main worry should be in fact as of now that states are regulating ejuice sales before the government and FDA, I don't think it's our safety they have on there mind but more so "sin tax" so hello 35.00 $ 30 ml bottle of DA / AP free juice .......... and you thought 5pawns was overpriced ?

 

[stevegmu]

Why would they not allow it ? both diacetyl and acetoin are in analogs, surely if they were that bad they would have banned them or taken them out ?
Have you heard of the FDA "black label warning" ? but they still let the consumers keep on buying ...........

Would you like the FDA to not regulate e-liquid ingredients, but regulate e-liquid the same as they do cigarettes? I like Halo and their tobaccos and menthols, so I'm good...

 

[stevegmu]

As usual, the dose makes the poison. They had to go to 700 mg/kg of bodyweight in order to find "statistically significant" problems. I weigh in at a bit over 70 kg. I'd have to consume 50 grams of that stuff to get there...

That's what, 2-3 hours worth of sub ohming?

 

[Rossum]

BTW - I wonder how may ml's of Citrus e-Liquid I would have to Vape for my Liver to be Exposed to "700mg per kilo bodyweight per day"

My educated guess: More than your body weight in e-liquid, per day.

 

[zoiDman]

Your main worry should be in fact as of now that states are regulating ejuice sales before the government and FDA, I don't think it's our safety they have on there mind but more so "sin tax" so hello 35.00 $ 30 ml bottle of DA / AP free juice .......... and you thought 5pawns was overpriced ?

Very True.

And I blame the FDA for Dragging it's Feet in Finalizing the Deeming Regs which made States think they Needed to Fend for themselves.

 

[Wraith504]

Have you all stopped eating french fries because they can clog your arteries and cause you to become obese which leads to other various multitudes of health concerns? I think not.