"It only takes ONE bad chemical"

[Jman8]

If someone ends up with lung damage and they wonder why they had no clue about the dangers, what should we tell them?

After reading thru the thread from what my previous post quoted to where this current post appears, the thing I feel your position ignores is that some people do want to inhale diketones. I think you cannot fathom that, and I honestly do not know why you cannot. Nicotine is a known toxin. I think every vaper knows this, but I don't know that every vaper knows this. Therefore, we probably all agree that vapers who vape nic want to be vaping it, despite the risk, and yet there could conceivably be people who don't know the risk and/or only understand the risk as being "might lead to addiction for life."

Nicotine has benefits, and is IMO mostly the reason why people choose to inhale it, rather than some claim of "I'm addicted, I can't control myself from wanting more product with nicotine in it." Same goes with alcohol, coffee/soda, and really most things (arguably everything that is ingested). Likewise, with flavors, there is the benefit that diketones provide. People will then say, well we don't need it. But that's true with most everything you can name. You don't need caffein in coffee or soda for it to taste about the same, and could put in other ingredients if "extra energy" is what you are after. It's not like using caffeine habitually is risk free.

Thus, as I harp on, we have very little reason to be concerned with what inhaling diketones will do to vapers, given what we know about a) our history of inhaling them (for decades) via smoking and b) how long vaping has been around and there aren't known cases of damage to vaper's lungs.

So, even with a question like the one you posed above, it ABSOLUTELY HAS TO be worded as "if someone ends up with lung damage" cause you can't sit here and lay claim to any known cases where it has occurred. This tells me you aren't so right about the side you are on.

But to answer your question, I'd ask them what they thought might happen by habitually inhaling anything. IMO, that's not being cold, but being realistic with how to best go forward with where they are. I would be curious about knowing what they do know about vaping ingredients, but might not ask them. My not knowing that information would not make me have less sympathy for their current (hypothetical) circumstance, but it would provide me with some semi-pertinent information for how effective treatment could be in their case. IOW, it is plausible that if given a physical substance for treatment, they could be clueless about the dangers of that substance, for surely whatever they take would not be risk free, and they may be of mindset of not seeking out the data regarding what is known about that substance.

All I could do is to accept responsibility for the part I played in that, the part we all play when we say, "go ahead, vape diketones".

IMO, the role one like you could, very easily, play is to let them know that there are vendors that exist right now who claim to have product tested, claim to display actual test results, and claim to be diketone free. I say "claim" because I stand by my position that unless person does their own testing, they'll never KNOW for sure. They just won't. They might think they do. They don't.

But I'd be real careful with that sort of position for vaping could plausibly cause damage to a person's lungs and IMO, it would seem very likely if someone is going to vape daily for decades. What that amount of damage will be is impossible to determine. But if you think vaping diketone free amounts to a "get out of damaged lungs jail, for free" card, well then IMO, you've arrived at this discussion clueless.

 

[Jman8]

"Rare" seems to have varied Meanings. Rare can mean One Thing when compared to the Entire General Population. Whereas Rare may have a very Different Meaning when the Population Sub-Set is those who are Habitually Exposing themselves to High Levels of Diketones.

Smokers would be a sub-set of the overall population that has habitually exposed themselves to high levels of diketones. It seems entirely rare among smokers, and yet it is argued, it seems, as highly likely among vapers to get B.O. from inhaling diketones at levels that are far lower than PAD smoker (routinely) inhales.

 

[Jman8]

People being Exposed to High Levels to Diketones is Very Rare. And besides those using a Small Percentage of e-Liquid with High Levels of Da and AP, I can't think of Too Many Groups who Experience such Exposure.

Smokers, then are a very rare group of people.

From what I recall, a PAD smoker inhales around 9500 ppb of Diacetyl when they finish the pack, and 850 ppb of Acetoin. Combine the two, and you get the DAP figure. For vaping, let's take a ml of 5 Pawns highest juice. I find (from quick search) the highest DAP figure to be around 300 ppb. Heck, let's just go with 1000 to help those who think they have a leg to stand on by fighting against Diketones. Now, a vaper like myself does around 2 ml a day, but I realize that there are some that do 60 ml in a day. I'm sure overwhelming majority do not, but let's bring those into the picture. Likewise though, let's be fair and bring in the 4 PAD smoker, who is then getting around 40,000 DAP. Compared to the 60 ml person that would mean that the vaping is coming in higher. But that is based on me raising the figure only 3.33 times higher than what it is for 5P, and so if went with actual figures, it would be 18,000 DAP for the 60 ml guy. Most vapers that seem to vape a lot, are in the 10 to 20 ml daily rate. Or around 3000 to 6000 with what is 5P's highest diketone product. Or substantially less than the PAD smoker.

Now, keep in mind that many smokers (or at least the ones on ECF) have been doing this daily for decades. So, 10,000 DAP for a year is around 3.5 million a year, and in 10 years is 30.5 million. I'm thinking a vaper would have to vape for around 73 years to get the amount a smoker did in a decade.

 

[caramel]

Doesn't matter. If there's concern it has to be disclosed (see food industry example).

There's a simple test for it.

Ask the question "If I were told that the product contains X, would that have changed my purchase intention?".

Where X can be 6.2 nic (vs. 6), or water, or dyacetil, or whatever you want.

 

[CarolT]

Just a quick reply so we can get back to the topic -- wasn't sure that *drinking* tonic would have any effect on the airways, and the docs mentioned in this study seem to agree:

"Dr. Liggett cautions that eating bitter tasting foods or compounds would not help in the treatment of asthma. "Based on our research, we think that the best drugs would be chemical modifications of bitter compounds, which would be aerosolized and then inhaled into the lungs with an inhaler," he says."

Andria

Well, drinking cough syrup seems to work ok, so don't write it off without experimental evidence.

 

[skoony]

Racehorse said "The whole point of the national park system has always been to educate---- but also to leave the park system’s resources and wildlife “unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations.”

In the real world that means you cannot use motors on boats and or vehicles in areas of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area even to
facilitate the transport of handicapped individuals so they can get the chance to see pristine wilderness.

P.S. This can explain why certain PG manufacturers are reluctant to sell PG for vaping purposes. They would be making the implied statement that it is fit for inhalation, which is something they cannot stand behind.

The reason some PG manufacturers do not sell PG for vaping purposes is they are against vaping,not inhaling.

It is simple to avoid nitrates because they are required to be listed on the label. In addition, he FDA has established guidelines to limit the amount of nitrites that can be used in foods.

Then the FDA should issue guidelines to limit the amount of diketones not,issue deeming regs'.

This risk is known.

Even when concerning the workers that were diagnosed with popcorn the risk involved is still
not known.

Just wondering... Has B.O. ever been Observed where Diketones are not present?

Prior to the popcorn lung out breaks OB was considered a symptom of tissue rejection of lung
transplant patients. It is mentioned in the literature OB was diagnosed in some cases that were
non-transplant related but,were extremely rare.

What should be Questioned though, and what is Relevant to this Thread, is How "Rare" is B.O. in people who are Exposed to High Levels of Diketones on a Habitual Basis?

Referring to government archives apparently less than 30 confirmed cases starting about 1997 thru
2003 including 2 recent cases in Texas.
Regards
Mike

 

[Moonbogg]

If FDA set a limit for diketone contents, that would be a pretty decent way to go I think. That's a lot better than just letting people make juice with 500-3000PPM of AP. Also, I see people mentioning parts per billion measured in juice. Those juices were measured in parts per million, which is 1000x greater concentration that the parts per billion measurements...
Also, people continue to say that smokers don't have BO, and I will say for the tenth time, smokers have COPD and the damage and symptoms look a lot like BO from what I have gathered. They are both obstructive lung diseases and it is speculated that the diketones play a role in the cause of COPD. That makes perfect sense when you think about it for 5 seconds.
A person doesn't have to have full blown, lung transplant worthy BO in order to get screwed. If I lost even 10% of my lung function, I would be extremely ...... off and depressed about it. The damage doesn't have to be total and complete in order to be a terrible tragedy. Imagine a young person having a hard time riding a bike with their kids or hiking, or climbing, or working out at the gym because they lost 20% of their lung function from vaping custards? That's a tragedy.

 

[Jman8]

If FDA set a limit for diketone contents, that would be a pretty decent way to go I think. That's a lot better than just letting people make juice with 500-3000PPM of AP. Also, I see people mentioning parts per billion measured in juice. Those juices were measured in parts per million, which is 1000x greater concentration that the parts per billion measurements...

This would depend on the limits the FDA set. They could go with 3000 PPM as guideline they set.

Me, who said parts per billion was referring to comparison to smoking, both of which are at the same unit of measure, with smoking being much higher, and yet both being what is reasonably considered "trace amounts."

Also, people continue to say that smokers don't have BO, and I will say for the tenth time, smokers have COPD and the damage and symptoms look a lot like BO from what I have gathered. They are both obstructive lung diseases and it is speculated that the diketones play a role in the cause of COPD. That makes perfect sense when you think about it for 5 seconds.

Your point is that there is damage to lungs with smokers. So, it makes perfect sense to then ask where are the vapers with damage to their lungs? I'll concede that there might be some, and/or it might occur someday (I'd say likely), but not only because of diketones, and mostly because you are inhaling something habitually regardless of what that is. When non-smoking types are looking for way to prevent smokers from getting lung damage, it is never about the ingredients in a smoke, but always about the message of "do not smoke."

Seems like anti-diketone crowd doesn't want that on the table for what their point amounts to. But if "damage to lungs" is a reasonable concern, then most reasonable response is "do not vape." It truly is. If you feel you must vape for whatever are your own reasons, then do realize that regardless of ingredients, a habitual activity of vaping over 30 years could plausibly lead to damage of the lungs. A truly caring person would suggest not to vape at all IF they feel there is a concern with what vaping could do to someone over the longterm. Vaping becomes the avoidable risk. Even if person smokes, the answer would be: a) stop smoking and b) do not vape. While some can report that after seeing medical personnel, and having tests run, there lungs are knowingly functioning better.

A person doesn't have to have full blown, lung transplant worthy BO in order to get screwed. If I lost even 10% of my lung function, I would be extremely ...... off and depressed about it. The damage doesn't have to be total and complete in order to be a terrible tragedy. Imagine a young person having a hard time riding a bike with their kids or hiking, or climbing, or working out at the gym because they lost 20% of their lung function from vaping custards? That's a tragedy.

That so far has not been connected with vaping at all. In fact, based on several (like dozens) of anecdotal cases, we have had vapers report that their lungs are functioning far better than when they were a smoker. We don't know what those same lungs will be like 30 years from now, but given what we do know in the diketone-rich era, these people's lungs greatly improved in functionality from when they were a smoker. Add to the anecdotal the experience of anyone reading this paragraph. Since stopping / cutting back on smoking have you noticed your lungs functioning better, about the same, or worse? I reckon vast majority would say it feels much better.

 

[skoony]

Also, people continue to say that smokers don't have BO, and I will say for the tenth time, smokers have COPD and the damage and symptoms look a lot like BO from what I have gathered.

BO and COPD are not related in any way. This is why they allowed the court cases to proceed.
Regards
Mike

 

[AndriaD]

Well, drinking cough syrup seems to work ok, so don't write it off without experimental evidence.

Cough syrup works because it contains active ingredients which work systemically. They're saying the bitter thing works because the airways have bitter taste receptors -- but if you drink something, it doesn't go into your airway -- it shouldn't anyway, or there will be a LOT of coughing. To get into the airway, something has to be in gas or vapor form. When they come up with a version of this in an inhalant form, I'll certainly try it.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

Also, people continue to say that smokers don't have BO, and I will say for the tenth time, smokers have COPD and the damage and symptoms look a lot like BO from what I have gathered. They are both obstructive lung diseases and it is speculated that the diketones play a role in the cause of COPD. That makes perfect sense when you think about it for 5 seconds.

Nope. COPD is an obstructive lung disease. B. O. would be a DESTRUCTIVE lung disease -- and just for the record, asthma differs because it is a RESTRICTIVE lung disease.

The only "relation" of COPD to B. O. is that B. O. can SEEM a lot like COPD, so it [B.O.] is often misdiagnosed; B. O. can only be diagnosed correctly by a lung biopsy, which many are reluctant to do, unless treating the patient for COPD is not working.

A person doesn't have to have full blown, lung transplant worthy BO in order to get screwed. If I lost even 10% of my lung function, I would be extremely ...... off and depressed about it. The damage doesn't have to be total and complete in order to be a terrible tragedy. Imagine a young person having a hard time riding a bike with their kids or hiking, or climbing, or working out at the gym because they lost 20% of their lung function from vaping custards? That's a tragedy.

The only tragedy is that the person is buying "custard flavors" which contain diketones when they could very easily make their own "custard flavors" using flavors which don't contain them -- DX Bavarian mixed with Vanilla Swirl.

Or actually, I'd also call it a tragedy that the usual FTC guidelines don't seem to be applied to making ejuice, as if ejuice is somehow exempt from the usual consumer protections.

I could easily go along with having the contents listed, as they are for all food items. What I can't go along with is MORE regulations when the regulations that are already in place aren't doing a bit of good. It's pointless, and an utter waste of money and resources to add more regulations when those that already exist are being totally ignored.

Andria

 

[Kent C]

Nicotine is a known toxin. I think every vaper knows this, but I don't know that every vaper knows this.

Great post btw.... And this ↑ is the crux of the situation - not only with nic but also diketones and many other substances.

In fact, as you point out - the same 'argument' can be made with nicotine - a known poison - that some say we should apply to diketones - "that it is an 'avoidable risk'", so eliminate it. Which, using the same logic - nicotine is also an 'avoidable risk', so eliminate it. Why discriminate?? Basically stop vaping since even 0 nic would have problems with the remaining contents - PG, VG, high heat, flavorings.

It is not what is to be done by oneself that is the problem, it is what some want to do 'for others' that's the problem - the socialization of their own considerations on other unsuspecting 'victims'.

For someone who actually knows what the suspected dangers are, there are basically two choices. Either consider with the knowledge available, whether one wants to do further inquiry - ones own testing or taking the word of vendors, their lab reports or taking into account studies that show no or low incidence of substances OR (also knowing in general some of the above) make a 'risk/reward' decision to not do any of that and continue the action, taking perhaps a relative risk, based on knowledge and experience.

Yet for those who know and make those personal decisions about their own health, those individual decisions are trumped by the actions by those who proclaim to care for others who are - they say rather uncaringly, btw - either ignorant or simply (re:some sub-ohmers) do 'not have a care in the world'.. And that can lead - by activism - to this:

Moonbogg:"If FDA set a limit for diketone contents, that would be a pretty decent way to go I think."

IOW, forcing those who are knowledgeable and have made their own decisions as to how to handle the situation, into their view of things, under the guise of 'caring for others' while dismissing and not caring about others who disagree with them and in many cases in other industries - and really po'ing those 'unsuspected victims' mentioned above who liked what they were doing/buying and now can't!

And like all socializations - it penalizes the individuals who did the effort to inform themselves and also some those that didn't, but the 'advocates' really feel good about themselves - some even get awards for this crap It's more about 'status building' than 'caring'. And as Franklin said (paraphrasing) - we lose freedom for 'safety' - a 'safety' in this case, which is spurious at best.

 

[DC2]

I agree with both Kent C and Moonbogg.

Don't know where that leaves me.
But I think I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Kent C]

Nope. COPD is an obstructive lung disease. B. O. would be a DESTRUCTIVE lung disease -- and just for the record, asthma differs because it is a RESTRICTIVE lung disease.

wiki on B. O. has a line:

"Bronchiolitis obliterans caused by diacetyl inhalation begins with severe cough and dyspnea (shortness of breath), and can progress very rapidly or slowly. CT images show bronchial wall thickening and trapped air. Non-smokers may be at higher risk for this form of bronchiolitis obliterans."

The 'note' on it goes nowhere but a further search found this line repeated on many sites without any details of why that may be. Some 'discussion' on reddit suspected that there was something in smoking or vaping that may reduce the effect, but that was just the logical suggestion since smokers with large amounts of inhaling diketones don't suffer from the illness en masse. And that isn't the 'we just don't know' type argument because there have been long terms studies on smokers.

Wiki also notes the 'non-reversibility' but a few studies have shown that not to be the case. I'd really like to know why 'non-smokers' may be at higher risk. So if anyone finds anything about that - please post.

 

[Kent C]

I agree with both Kent C and Moonbogg.

Don't know where that leaves me.

I know where that leaves me :- )

 

[AndriaD]

It is not what is to be done by oneself that is the problem, it is what some want to do 'for others' that's the problem - the socialization of their own considerations on other unsuspecting 'victims'.

YES!

I cannot tell you how many times I've heard, "someone with asthma shouldn't be vaping/smoking anyway." Well thanks for that update, Einstein; I never would have guessed! They never do manage to come up with a way for an asthmatic to NOT do those things -- vaping is the best I've found for being able to avoid smoking, so I'll just stick with that. If I do away with vaping, then I'll almost certainly go back to smoking. Repeat ad infinitum.

I'm not a scientist, but I did manage to kinda-sorta follow along on the OSHA webpage dealing with diacetyl and AP, and what I gleaned told me that 1) there may be a risk of lung DESTRUCTION; 2) if the destruction occurs, it is irreversible. And managed to follow along well enough on their page about butyric acid, which told me that in high enough concentration, butyric acid may *irritate*, but that removing the butyric acid will alleviate the irritation -- i.e., it IS reversible.

So, I did some research of my own, and came to the conclusion that a) I really can't trust ejuice makers not to put anything in ejuice that their hearts desire, and b) there ARE flavors available which don't contain them, if I really wish to avoid them. I do, so now I make my own. I manage to trust the flavor mfrs because a) they were around long before vaping, and b) they'll be around even if vaping goes extinct, and c) there is nowhere near the profit margin on flavors as there is on ejuice, so the flavor mfrs have very little reason to lie. They may not disclose, but those who do -- really no reason to lie.

My own "research" also informed me that WTA caused me a breathing problem, but I also knew that without WTA, I would almost certainly go back to smoking. My best bet was to use the WTA, and begin reducing it in a regular, steady fashion, towards getting free of it, and deal with my asthma as best I could in the meantime. So far, it's working just fine.

Really don't understand at all, all this hysteria about diketones, when they're pretty easy to avoid -- you just have to have a bit of initiative. Those without initiative should not be penalizing those with it, by demanding that Big Nanny get her grubby greedy mits all over it.

There is also the fact that nobody really knows FOR SURE that diketones in ejuice will cause any problem, as Jman so often points out.

Should vendors disclose diketone presence? Yes, they should. Should the gov't MAKE them? I don't see why; consumer choice can drive that market as well as it drives any other.

Andria

 

[philoshop]

WE, the vaping community; including users, manufacturers, suppliers, and researchers have made enormous strides in the development and advancement of this technology in a very short time, IN SPITE OF attempts by government(s) to interfere. WE will continue to do so if left alone.


And to comment on the post by @KentC above re the socialization aspect: I find it troubling that those who profess to be "concerned for others" so often narrow their definition of "others". I'm an "other" as well.

 

[AndriaD]

wiki on B. O. has a line:

"Bronchiolitis obliterans caused by diacetyl inhalation begins with severe cough and dyspnea (shortness of breath), and can progress very rapidly or slowly. CT images show bronchial wall thickening and trapped air. Non-smokers may be at higher risk for this form of bronchiolitis obliterans."

The 'note' on it goes nowhere but a further search found this line repeated on many sites without any details of why that may be. Some 'discussion' on reddit suspected that there was something in smoking or vaping that may reduce the effect, but that was just the logical suggestion since smokers with large amounts of inhaling diketones don't suffer from the illness en masse. And that isn't the 'we just don't know' type argument because there have been long terms studies on smokers.

Wiki also notes the 'non-reversibility' but a few studies have shown that not to be the case. I'd really like to know why 'non-smokers' may be at higher risk. So if anyone finds anything about that - please post.

This is something that has occurred to me, that amongst all those toxins in cigarette smoke, there is something that actually protects against the effects of diketones. Perhaps it doesn't protect everyone all the time; and perhaps the toxins are such that COPD can occur LONG before there are any deleterious effects of the diketones -- and COPD can kill you -- it's hard to have any diseases if you're already dead.

Andria

 

[DC2]

I know where that leaves me :- )

The real question is, are you the rock or the hard place?

 

[Kent C]

I cannot tell you how many times I've heard, "someone with asthma shouldn't be vaping/smoking anyway." Well thanks for that update,

Really!! And this is the thing about the free market vs. 'central planning'/socialism. There is no way for anyone at the 'console' of the computer that can determine what the wants and needs of people are.

I can't imagine all the data, circumstances, etc. that someone with asthma or other debilitating disease has to consider. And no one else can either - except the person themselves. And that isn't just about people with illnesses - although much more thought applies - but for people making choices in any market - personal choices that no one else may know - even the vendor might not but the 'market' actually will by demand for things.

If people don't want diketones in eliquid - that's where the market and vendors will go - for those who don't - they'll lose money and/or go out of business - just like those who 'advocate' that would love! lol. You don't need a SWAT team going into their stores like for unpasteurized milk - something obviously some people want, but now can't have 'legally'.

If some want diketones for taste and some don't want any - a market will form accordingly. Those who want to know exactly, should ask or should do their own testing. Vendors who think that it may be a consideration for most of the customers will do their own testing or subcontract it out. Vendors who don't think that, won't - but may wonder where their sales went... or why they rose. :- )

That's why I like your "Well thanks for the update" lol....