"It only takes ONE bad chemical"

[Kent C]

Some don't have a clue to what 'moral' or 'immoral' is. "Caring" in the form it takes in socialism/altruism - taking away individual responsibility where people become dependent on gov't rather than themselves. They create victims with that philosophy. (and voters, which is the real intent.) That's cold hearted and deceitful as well.

They create ignorance and promote it by taking away one of the best ways that people learn things - by saving them from the decisions they make and not having them experience the results of their actions so they can make the needed adjustments. They 'coddle' not 'care', and it harms people.

They do the same with companies 'too big to fail' - and we end up with leviathans that eliminate small businesses. Those companies should be allowed to fail and get rid of the businessmen who can't run businesses, and allow those who can to survive, rather than what we may see in the ecig industry where the only companies selling ecigs will be the tobacco companies. This is what 'caring' creates

And they have to lie about their real intentions - a mistake that Rep. Maxine Waters made...



And that is just one obvious example of how they lie in order to hide their true intent - 'caring' has nothing whatsoever to do with it and lying is considered 'immoral' except to those who lie - for them it's an essential part of their being. They cover their lies with 'caring'. They take what would normally be a moral human response and corrupt it for their own purposes.

 

[AndriaD]

How many People work in an Environment, such as a Microwave Popcorn Factory, where they are Exposed to High Level of Diketones during an 8 Hour Work Shift.

The Same Question can be Asked about How Many Vapers are Inhaling High Levels of Diketone via the e-liquids they Chose to Use?

"Rare" seems to have varied Meanings. Rare can mean One Thing when compared to the Entire General Population. Whereas Rare may have a very Different Meaning when the Population Sub-Set is those who are Habitually Exposing themselves to High Levels of Diketones.

Excellent points.

I also wanted to point out that one thing which scares me off diketones, IF they are responsible for B. O., is the possibly irreversible nature of B. O. It's fine to say that B. O. develops slowly, but given that the only symptom one may experience is shortness of breath, and that by the time that symptom is felt, damage has already been done -- if that damage is irreversible, then it's too late to do anything about it.

I've made this point before, regarding the butyric acid that some vendors are using as a substitute for diketones; butyric acid, in high enough concentration, may cause irritation -- but if you stop using it, then the irritation goes away. B. O., apparently, does not go away, even if you stop being exposed to it.

I think my reasons for avoiding diketones are entirely logical. I don't think my personal reasons are such that every person on planet Earth should avoid them, and I'd never make that claim, and I am not the control-freak sort that wants to protect everyone from themselves and every risk possible. But I think my own avoidance of them is quite reasonable.

I also don't jump out of perfectly good airplanes, drive 100MPH, eat pufferfish, climb mountains, or dive off bridges while attached to a giant rubberband. But if those things make you happy... knock yourself out!

Andria

 

[Kent C]

"Rare" seems to have varied Meanings. Rare can mean One Thing when compared to the Entire General Population. Whereas Rare may have a very Different Meaning when the Population Sub-Set is those who are Habitually Exposing themselves to High Levels of Diketones.

You might contact those who wrote the wiki piece which is where that came from.... or become an editor there like Dr. MA. I know from reading his stuff on ecigs, each sentence gets a lot of attention and while politics seems to be part of it, if a person can come up with a good reason not to include some wording - it gets a full discussion and if included - it wasn't just one person's viewpoint that got it included in the text.

 

[Moonbogg]

Some don't have a clue to what 'moral' or 'immoral' is. "Caring" in the form it takes in socialism/altruism - taking away individual responsibility where people become dependent on gov't rather than themselves. They create victims with that philosophy. (and voters, which is the real intent.) That's cold hearted and deceitful as well.

They create ignorance and promote it by taking away one of the best ways that people learn things - by saving them from the decisions they make and not having them experience the results of their actions so they can make the needed adjustments. They 'coddle' not 'care', and it harms people.

They do the same with companies 'too big to fail' - and we end up with leviathans that eliminate small businesses. Those companies should be allowed to fail and get rid of the businessmen who can't run businesses, and allow those who can to survive, rather than what we may see in the ecig industry where the only companies selling ecigs will be the tobacco companies. This is what 'caring' creates

And they have to lie about their real intentions - a mistake that Rep. Maxine Waters made...



And that is just one obvious example of how they lie in order to hide their true intent - 'caring' has nothing whatsoever to do with it and lying is considered 'immoral' except to those who lie - for them it's an essential part of their being. They cover their lies with 'caring'. They take what would normally be a moral human response and corrupt it for their own purposes.

You are making this way too complicated. This is so simple it eludes people. The whole deal is this: Diketones might damage our friend's lungs. Lets give them a heads up.

People don't know about this, and they should. The very least that should happen in the form of regulation is disclosure on the bottle, and maybe that's enough so long as the words "potential lung damage" are included. That way people really understand the risk and know what it is. There's only one chance to get this right guys. The damage can't be undone and it will ruin people's lives.

 

[zoiDman]

Excellent points.

I also wanted to point out that one thing which scares me off diketones, IF they are responsible for B. O., is the possibly irreversible nature of B. O. It's fine to say that B. O. develops slowly, but given that the only symptom one may experience is shortness of breath, and that by the time that symptom is felt, damage has already been done -- if that damage is irreversible, then it's too late to do anything about it.

I've made this point before, regarding the butyric acid that some vendors are using as a substitute for diketones; butyric acid, in high enough concentration, may cause irritation -- but if you stop using it, then the irritation goes away. B. O., apparently, does not go away, even if you stop being exposed to it.

I think my reasons for avoiding diketones are entirely logical. I don't think my personal reasons are such that every person on planet Earth should avoid them, and I'd never make that claim, and I am not the control-freak sort that wants to protect everyone from themselves and every risk possible. But I think my own avoidance of them is quite reasonable.

I also don't jump out of perfectly good airplanes, drive 100MPH, eat pufferfish, climb mountains, or dive off bridges while attached to a giant rubberband. But if those things make you happy... knock yourself out!

Andria

The Irreversible nature of B.O. is part of what Makes it so Insidious. That, and it seems to be a Reasonably Avoidable risk.

 

[AndriaD]

The Irreversible nature of B.O. is part of what Makes it so Insidious. That, and it seems to be a Reasonably Avoidable risk.

I agree. I suppose I'm fortunate, I had not tried any flavors that contained diketones, nor even tasted any ejuice with them, AFAIK, at the time I learned of this diketone problem -- so I'm really not missing anything, by avoiding them. People yammer about how much they love custard flavors, but I find a mix of DX Bavarian Cream and Vanilla Swirl (both TFA) provides an admirable custard flavor -- without diketones.

Andria

 

[Kent C]

Just in case anyone misunderstands - I think that the suspected information on diketones is sufficient for me to take the responsibility to not have them in my eliquids. In fact, the vendor I have used for over 5 years now was the first to reliably go 'diacetyl free' with lab reports and the approval from ECITA in the UK when that was formed. Our ecig industry has done quite well at self-regulating - there will always be exceptions, as their are in FDA regulated industries but the reaction in private industry is much quicker and less cost than a third party gov't intervention. And private concerns do not 'prop up' certain businesses by the amount of money they put into campaigns.

 

[Lessifer]

Same for tobacco cigarettes. They have the potential to help you with a lung cancer. Yet it doesn't always happen - like in your lotto example.

Not quite. There is a "known" correlation between smoking tobacco and lung cancer. If you have $7 in your hand and you are contemplating buying a pack, you have the potential. If you buy the pack and smoke it, you are taking a known risk.

None of this is to say that everyone should vape diketones. If you choose to avoid them, that is fine, I think you should have that right and I think companies are responding to that request.

 

[Kent C]

You are making this way too complicated.

Lol... me?? ....after your off topic diatribe on morality. Hey, some people actually read these posts - who you trying to kid? Don't you think they read your complications first - and then my response? Do you think they're stupid or what?

 

[zoiDman]

You might contact those who wrote the wiki piece which is where that came from.... or become an editor there like Dr. MA. I know from reading his stuff on ecigs, each sentence gets a lot of attention and while politics seems to be part of it, if a person can come up with a good reason not to include some wording - it gets a full discussion and if included - it wasn't just one person's viewpoint that got it included in the text.

I see Nothing Wrong with the wording on that Wiki page with regards to how the word "Rare" was used.

B.O. is Very Rare when the amount of Correctly Diagnosed cases is compared to the Entire Population of United States.

What should be Questioned though, and what is Relevant to this Thread, is How "Rare" is B.O. in people who are Exposed to High Levels of Diketones on a Habitual Basis?

People being Exposed to High Levels to Diketones is Very Rare. And besides those using a Small Percentage of e-Liquid with High Levels of Da and AP, I can't think of Too Many Groups who Experience such Exposure.

With the Exception of Popcorn Workers who worked around Da and AP. And some of them got Very Sick from it.

 

[zoiDman]

I agree. I suppose I'm fortunate, I had not tried any flavors that contained diketones, nor even tasted any ejuice with them, AFAIK, at the time I learned of this diketone problem -- so I'm really not missing anything, by avoiding them. People yammer about how much they love custard flavors, but I find a mix of DX Bavarian Cream and Vanilla Swirl (both TFA) provides an admirable custard flavor -- without diketones.

Andria

I wasn't so Fortunate. Because I Loved Buttery and Creamy e-Liquids. For a Long Time they were my ADV's.

But for Me (and Only Me) I just got to the Point where I Didn't think Risk and or the Potential Harm was worth the Taste of the Flavor.

So I moved away from them. And it is Funny. Because what I thought I would Hate, and what I though would be the Worst, Unflavored/HOF, I actually Enjoy more than my old Heavily Flavored and Sweetened DIY e-Liquids.

Go Figure.

 

[Kent C]

Hey, it's been fun but whenever we get into this subject, certain creatures come out of the cracks and all rational discussion goes out the door. Abandoning thread....

 

[nicnik]

I see Nothing Wrong with the wording on that Wiki page with regards to how the word "Rare" was used.

B.O. is Very Rare when the amount of Correctly Diagnosed cases is compared to the Entire Population of United States.

What should be Questioned though, and what is Relevant to this Thread, is How "Rare" is B.O. in people who are Exposed to High Levels of Diketones on a Habitual Basis?

People being Exposed to High Levels to Diketones is Very Rare. And besides those using a Small Percentage of e-Liquid with High Levels of Da and AP, I can't think of Too Many Groups who Experience such Exposure.

With the Exception of Popcorn Workers who worked around Da and AP. And some of them got Very Sick from it.

I agree with this, but I'd add the question, "How rare is B.O. among vapers who've vaped a lot of diketones?".

 

[Moonbogg]

Lol... me?? ....after your off topic diatribe on morality. Hey, some people actually read these posts - who you trying to kid? Don't you think they read your complications first - and then my response? Do you think they're stupid or what?

Don't be silly. I'm just trying to prevent people from getting permanent lung damage. You admit diketones are dangerous enough for you to avoid them like the plague, but you don't think others deserve that opportunity unless they get lucky enough to stumble across that information? That's not nice. Not nice at all.

 

[zoiDman]

I agree with this, but I'd add the question, "How rare is B.O. among vapers who've vaped a lot of diketones?".

That is what I would Like to see Threads like this Explore.

 

[philoshop]

Extend this to commercial air travel and every aircraft would be covered with paper 'stickies' stating the known and unknown risks inherent in flying.
No one would ever get anywhere.

 

[Kent C]

Don't be silly. I'm just trying to prevent people from getting permanent lung damage. You admit diketones are dangerous enough for you to avoid them like the plague, but you don't think others deserve that opportunity unless they get lucky enough to stumble across that information? That's not nice. Not nice at all.

No, I think others should use their heads to inform themselves as I did. You're the one that wants to keep them in the dark by doing their job as individuals - that's the way they'll never learn.

 

[Moonbogg]

No, I think others should use their heads to inform themselves as I did. You're the one that wants to keep them in the dark by doing their job as individuals - that's the way they'll never learn.

You're back. I knew your jet pack would run out of fuel.
Jokes aside, what job am I doing for them? There is nothing wrong with warning people who might not be aware. I think that's a pretty weak accusation that you are making of me. If people don't take public awareness seriously, then damage happens. All you have to do is look at what happened with the anti vaxxers. They ran around talking trash about vaccinations and people started getting sick again. Public awareness and speaking out has started to correct that. That's what I'm doing.
I am speaking out and refusing to accept the nonsense excuses and defenses of diketones being in e-liquids.

 

[AndriaD]

I wasn't so Fortunate. Because I Loved Buttery and Creamy e-Liquids. For a Long Time they were my ADV's.

But for Me (and Only Me) I just got to the Point where I Didn't think Risk and or the Potential Harm was worth the Taste of the Flavor.

So I moved away from them. And it is Funny. Because what I thought I would Hate, and what I though would be the Worst, Unflavored/HOF, I actually Enjoy more than my old Heavily Flavored and Sweetened DIY e-Liquids.

Go Figure.

That seems reasonable to me -- really everything in life should be weighed in such a rational fashion.

But, I also believe that there are those who are so attached to those flavors, that if they couldn't vape them, would probably go back to smoking. I think that would be worse than the risk that the vaped diketones represent -- at the very least, we have a really good idea of exactly how detrimental smoking can be, while the diketone risk is still quite up-in-the-air. I think those people have to make the same sort of rational decision, to continue with one potential risk, or return to an almost-certain risk.

I had to make the same calculation regarding WTA -- it did seem to make my asthma symptoms worse -- but without it, I would certainly have returned to smoking, which may have *masked* some of my asthmatic symptoms, but my morning cough-up session informed me daily was doing my asthma no favors -- in addition to the risk of cancer and pulmonary disease. I opted to continue the WTA and deal with my short-term discomfort, in hopes that a) eventually I could get free of WTA, and b) eventually my breathing would return to something a lot more comfortable. I'm very close now to being free of WTA, down to 2%, and the 500/50 Advair is helping my asthma tremendously. Now I'm hoping that once the WTA is completely gone, I may be able to backup to the 250/50 Advair, because I know that steroids have risks of their own.

Andria

 

[Lessifer]

I agree with this, but I'd add the question, "How rare is B.O. among vapers who've vaped a lot of diketones?".

I would also add the question of "How comparable is the exposure in vaping to the exposure in an industrial setting?" I think we're starting to explore this, the NIOSH response concerning Dr. F's initial estimates is a good start.

Extend this to commercial air travel and every aircraft would be covered with paper 'stickies' stating the known and unknown risks inherent in flying.
No one would ever get anywhere.

see: cigarette package warning labels, California's Proposition 65, etc.