It's interesting that some people honestly think "high end" mod prices are justifiable.

[CommaHolly]

How many lithium batteries and chargers would you go through in that time?

Not debating, just really wonder.

that also depends on the quality of the charger and batteries purchased, of course. the higher quality the battery/charger, the more $$.

 

[CommaHolly]

It's a bit disturbing to see this huge rift opening up in the community with the whole "originals vs. clones" threads. All it seems to do is spark a lot of anger and resentment, usually with deleted hate comments and locked threads. Can't we all just agree that it is our own money and we will choose to spend it how we see fit? Nobody here has the right to judge another based on the decisions they make. It's really turning into a bunch of BS, IMHO.
Otherwise- keep beating that horse if it makes you feel any better.

I agree, to be honest,,,,

I don't understand why something that's right for one person is assumed to be right for all.

I have no problem with people buying clones, less expensive devices,,,I still OWN those less expensive devices,,,,,

I just think it's sad when others do NOT understand that "to each his/her own."

 

[WattWick]

wow do we really need these threads almost daily now?

Don't like it? . don't buy it..... quit worrying so much how other people spend their money.

very little to do with it many of the mods have a price set and none of them raise the price later when demand goes up.

Its strange how everyone wants the cheap alternative but noone is willing to support the people who actually designed something.

Remember the clones are copies of wildly popular products. without people supporting the original designers china would not take notice of the popularity and give YOU a clone.

when all the high end modders go back to hiding out on vaporwall and selling their products backroom style off of excel spreadsheets and no stores sell their products anymore and china has nothing left to clone, enjoy your vivinova's and protanks.
this is something the newer people dont remember when all there was available commercially was junk, and all the good stuff was hidden away on walled forums.


because of this attitude right here there are many modders who stay hidden away on vapor wall, their products rock and strangely NO ONE has a clone of them. i

people can whine all they want about prices and tolerances, many of these people are just that a single guy doing the best they can to provide a quality product. case in point the guy who runs ihybrid, one man, one cnc, and he used all his profit to buy a better cnc machine, same with supert.

so you program or you own?

im sure after you spend 1/4 million on a state of the art machine then stand there all day milling something you WILL expect to get paid but a mod maker is expected to live on raman noodles so you can vape?
it's sad people have no issues with supporting some sweat shop but thinks its somehow evil to support someone who actually cares about the products they produce. I hope everyone who constantly defends the cloners also wears 7 dollar walmart shoes - i mean how dare you buy the expensive name brand when the copy is just as good.

As I read it, this topic wasn't about original design vs clones. It's about some mod makers charge too much for something that, in that price range, should be flawless in terms of design, materials, workmanship and "x factor".

It's not easy to discuss this without first defining if we are discussing works of art made by highly skilled and experienced one-man-operations or someone unexperienced going "me too" designing a mod and having it made in a CNC shop and slapping on a premium price tag to make the product seem more premium that it really is.

 

[Thrasher]

After some research many US manufacturers of gun parts are petitioning the Chinese govt to crack down on the theft of IP, loss of contract and licensing fees and stop the counterfeiting of US made gun parts including the AR15. yet here is the OP, an employee of such a company defending the cloning of IP designs made by someone else because it can be made cheaper.

It's about some mod makers charge too much for something that, in that price range, should be flawless in terms of design, materials, workmanship and "x factor".

by this reason alone there is no reason to pay the op's company for anything when Hong Kong is doing it for half price with the same tolerance.

I am not stating they will, but if profits dwindle, people get laid off and your salary is cut will you still be clamoring about the superiority of your skills and workmanship knowing some 16 year old kid is running a cnc 18 hours a day for pennies on the same products? checking some of the gun forums many people dont seem to have a problem buying the cheaper parts

(fair question)

willing to support the people who actually designed something.

ok lets bring up svoe mesto, im sure the kayfun didnt come to him in a dream. much research went in to perfect the design(as it is now the ones we have are actually the 4th or 5th revision) and make it work as flawlessly as it does. yet everyone would rather spend 15 dollars less and get the clone. why? why is it so hard to want to support this guy and make sure he has incentive to keep designing brilliant products. you dont think the effort is worth him making a living?

same thing with the ithaka, it did not pop out of thin air, it is the result of many revisions of the ody through the last couple years. but why should he care about making it even better if noone will support him. the spheriod went through months of revisions and design changes to make it the powerhouse it is now. I wish my bank account was heavy enough to where I could sit around and perfect a product until its just right. instead of rushing it out the door.

no one here or anywhere else is forcing ANYONE to buy the original, why are some people so .... hurt that I and others choose to. becuase you cant afford it? you dont feel like waiting a week for a restock?

PLEASE, SOMEONE, ANYONE tell me why their price and my willingness to buy it are such a major source of concern for others who dont want to buy the product in the first place...............

 

[xan13x]

I work with machining parts for firearms, AR15s in particular, with programming CNC machines with all of the coordinates, different axis angles, changing out drill bits and tooling, and aligning jigs, which have extremely low tolerances, down to about 0.0003, or 3 one-hundred-thousandths, it's pretty precise work. The cost of material, 7075 Aluminum (A pretty pricey aluminum alloy) has little to do with the price of the parts (~$150 for a lower) Now, for making a mod, a basic brass or S/S tube with some threads (which have very loose tolerances, compared to the military specifications I deal with) and add a button, some laser etching, there is no way the cost of production of those high end mods is anywhere near the prices some mods go for, compared to the type of work I deal with, but instead of laser etching, it's engraving a serial number and stamping other numbers into the face of the parts. Along with FFL-7 paperwork involved with every receiver.

The reason is supply : demand. E-Cigs have exploded in popularity in the past few months, and the manufacturers simply cannot keep up with orders, so they raise prices. That is all it is. The cost of materials has little to do with it, the research, and design of new mods has little to do with it, and the time and labor in machining the parts has little to do with it. In America, we have free enterprise, you can put whatever price you'd like on whatever product or service you sell.

You said it yourself AR15. You aren't designing anything. You're taking schematics from parts made 40 years ago and telling your machines what do do with a piece. That said, I'm not bashing for "cloning" an AR15, it's obviously legal and whatever, but that's not the point.

The cost difference comes in when you factor in the design time. If someone is building vape gear as their sole source of income and spends a couple of months designing a product, especially some of the more intricate and complicated pieces, they have to charge enough to justify their time.

You, or anyone making a product already made, can go grab the design, fabricate it, and sell it for parts plus labor with no R&D cost. It's the same reason medicine is set up like it is with a limited patent to recover research costs.

I'm not saying you're wrong. Obviously there is significant markup on the "real deal" in vape gear, but I think comparing AR15 manufacture to originally designed, high end vape gear is an incorrect comparison. Fasttech vape gear is a much better comparison to what you do than GG, Atmystique, etc. If you want a more apt comparison, it seems like a 2,500 dollar, high end NEW carbine that was designed from the ground up is better.

 

[peterforpats]

I've already beaten this dead horse.

All I'm going to say is there is a stark differance between a one off hand made item and one punched off a production line.

But if you find the value it, then MORE POWER TO YOU!!!!

the problem with mechs(tubes) is a lot of time there is no difference....

to the person who said $7 shoes are the same as more expensive shoes, no they're not...

maybe the U.S. is destined to NOT make anything anymore and just become a country of service workers, intellectual property, and media- oh, wait, we already are.......

 

[retrox]

Not sure why this topic always has to turn into an argument.

OP makes some very good points.

Manufacturers of high-end devices will have to alter their business models in order to weather China's superior industrial capabilities. Prices will come down at one end of the spectrum, overall quality of products will rise at the other.

Consumers will benefit. What's there to argue about? I say we have a party!

 

[xan13x]

As I read it, this topic wasn't about original design vs clones. It's about some mod makers charge too much for something that, in that price range, should be flawless in terms of design, materials, workmanship and "x factor".

It's not easy to discuss this without first defining if we are discussing works of art made by highly skilled and experienced one-man-operations or someone unexperienced going "me too" designing a mod and having it made in a CNC shop and slapping on a premium price tag to make the product seem more premium that it really is.

The industry tends to dictate the quality. Hyper precision machining isn't required in a 200 dollar atomizer because it isn't expected to survive a piece of molten metal exploding in it and flying out at 2,000 fps. I'm sure that if someone wanted to, they could make "within .00000001 mm" tolerance vape gear, and it would be no different than the highest quality stuff available right now.

I can't honestly speak to the quality of clones of higher end gear, as I choose to buy the original, but I do know the lower end clones I've owned aren't even close to products someone built to be good. Knock off clearo heads, knock off basic RBA's, etc. are vastly different as prices go up. The threading, o-rings, posts, wick, wire, etc. are generally that much better on a 20 dollar atty as compared to a 5 dollar knock off of the same type.

 

[Thunderball]

I cant believe this same old argument has popped up again right on the heels of that other thread. The fact is that the OP is misleading many newbies into thinking all clones are as good as the originals and because or your own inexperience, your going to lead others to wasting money and even give up on vaping when listening to this arrogance that all clones are great.

There are some decent clones out there especially as simple as an RBA....but there is alot of crap.

Now take a newb that takes what your saying to heart and goes on fasttech and buys his or her starter ego kit with double ego's, gets some evods and some replacement coils...OK? You with me?

The first thing they will find out is that the damn thing leaks or gurgles or the mouth piece came apart, the replacement heads dont work like the other folks he has heard from in ECF and one battery came apart after a week with the wire sticking out and the other lasted 6 weeks. THIS is the problem with these blanket "Clones are great" statements. ANY vetern vaper here knows exactly what I am talking about with every piece of gear that I have mentioned.

You have to have used them to say what works well and what does not.... or which ones are hit and miss. You need to be specific in these forums because there are so many much more experienced vapers here that just roll their eyes when these general statements are made... It gets tiresome to explain week after week as to where and why you are wrong.

 

[xan13x]

Not sure why this topic always has to turn into an argument.

OP makes some very good points.

Manufacturers of high-end devices will have to alter their business models in order to weather China's superior industrial capabilities. Prices will come down at one end of the spectrum, overall quality of products will rise at the other.

Consumers will benefit. What's there to argue about? I say we have a party!

I've got a jump to conclusions mat with your name on it....

I've read about good clones, to be sure, but for every good clone there are 20 piles of garbage being sold. With that said, I think you are severely jumping the gun on the idea that "business models must be changed." Clones have been around for a good while now, and I don't see any of the high end shops lowering prices or going out of business yet.

I think the Ithaka is up to serial number 7000-8000+ now, and that's a freaking 200 dollar atomizer. People value quality, and the assurance of support and parts to keep that quality going. There is a reason why Honda sells plenty of 25,000 dollar civics many years after Hyundai, Kia, etc. have made something similar for half the price....

 

[WattWick]

Again; this thread is not about OEM vs clones. Nor is it about works of art made by master craftsmen. It's about the pricing on CNC-ed premium priced mods. ... if I read the OP right.

There are plenty of threads to discuss clones in.

 

[peterforpats]

It's a bit disturbing to see this huge rift opening up in the community with the whole "originals vs. clones" threads. All it seems to do is spark a lot of anger and resentment, usually with deleted hate comments and locked threads. Can't we all just agree that it is our own money and we will choose to spend it how we see fit? Nobody here has the right to judge another based on the decisions they make. It's really turning into a bunch of BS, IMHO.
Otherwise- keep beating that horse if it makes you feel any better.

that's absurd- everyone does judge others on the decisions they make. every day you vote with your wallet , where you work , where you live, and actual voting at the ballot box. it's what we do as people and not sheep. the problem is when people get nasty or upset when others don't make the same judgements as they do. it's when they take that nastiness and interfere that I have a problem. otherwise, they can say whatever they want, doesn't bother me......

 

[sawlight]

Here's the thing, I get where the OP is coming from, for sure, but there are a lot of holes in this plan.
First you have to design it, it has to work with this battery or that, or all, which is it?
Then you have to prototype it and make it work. Then find out what doesn't work, why, and fix it. Then start all over again. Then once you have it all sorted out, you need to get a few in the wild so you can find out what problems you missed in the prototype stage.
IF you were to go out and buy a machine for this, you wouldn't do the prototype work on a CNC, this will all be onesy and twosies to start with, not worth the effort for the CNC time. I assure you, your boss wont let you do this! I have access to a shop down the road, lots of nice equipment that I am welcome to use if it's free. If I went in and wanted to do something like this on his CNC equipment he'd laugh me out of the place! "Go build the prototype, make it work, then find out how much market share you can get and we'll talk about setting up the machine!" I know this for a fact because I have approached him with other ideas.
THEN, once I have a run idea, he and I will sit down and come up with a price to make them, he figures in material, machine time, tooling etc., and it's up to me to run the machine, if and when it's free from other jobs! Then I have to pay him up front, not as I sell them, but I foot the bill myself!
The other way to do this, as I posted in another thread, go build a $20-100K building, buy the machine, pay $3k to get it wired, buy the computer and software, or pay someone else to program it, buy the material, buy the tooling and finally make the parts.
There is a LOT of overhead involved, most certainly if this is all you are going to do! Even setting up to do this with conventional machines, it's a huge amount of overhead! Those little boxes of carbide inserts that you break regularly, are around $40, then the tool holder etc..
As I told another poster, I CAN make an aluminum tube for a mod for around $30, but I've got to have a lot of people to want them to make it a worthwhile investment. I can make one for about $200!

 

[retrox]

I've got a jump to conclusions mat with your name on it....

I've read about good clones, to be sure, but for every good clone there are 20 piles of garbage being sold. With that said, I think you are severely jumping the gun on the idea that "business models must be changed." Clones have been around for a good while now, and I don't see any of the high end shops lowering prices or going out of business yet.

I think the Ithaka is up to serial number 7000-8000+ now, and that's a freaking 200 dollar atomizer. People value quality, and the assurance of support and parts to keep that quality going. There is a reason why Honda sells plenty of 25,000 dollar civics many years after Hyundai, Kia, etc. have made something similar for half the price....

Faceless has already done it with the introduction of his iHybrid Pure. I think we'll see prices coming down across the board as the market saturates, along with more economical choices for consumers from wise high-end manufacturers. I'm sure the pricey stuff will never go completely out of fashion, because there will always be a select few willing to pay extra for something unique and well-made. We're not talking about cars here, though. Mods are simple devices in comparison, and even if we consider the fact that some are clearly better than others in both form and function, there is still a significant disparity between the price of a good clone and a good original.

As long as mod-makers continue to price their products for a niche market, the market will remain just that: A niche one. Good business? That's for each business to decide. All we have to do as consumers is be prepared to reap any benefits that may result.

 

[xan13x]

Faceless has already done it with the introduction of his iHybrid Pure. I think we'll see prices coming down across the board as the market saturates, along with more economical choices for consumers from wise high-end manufacturers. I'm sure the pricey stuff will never go completely out of fashion, because there will always be a select few willing to pay extra for something unique and well-made. We're not talking about cars here, though. Mods are simple devices in comparison, and even if we consider the fact that some are clearly better than others in both form and function, there is still a significant disparity between the price of a good clone and a good original.

As long as mod-makers continue to price their products for a niche market, the market will remain just that: A niche one. Good business? That's for each business to decide. All we have to do as consumers is be prepared to reap any benefits that may result.

That is still a stretch. Citing one example of a higher end device going down in price is hardly a trend. My point is that, up to this very moment, people are making 150+ dollar equipment, and it doesn't seem as if they are having any difficulty selling thousands on units.

What I would think is more likely to happen than everything being pushed <50 bucks(random number), is that the middle market will disappear. The high end, complex, very detail oriented market will continue to thrive, as people like me, who enjoy the hobby aspect of it, will continue to demand such things. It's the less complex less "cult" followed things in the 50-100 dollar range that will fall victim(or "benefit the consumer" however you see it) will be cloned well enough to not have a market left.

I've got plenty of vaper friends who fit the category of "willing to pay 100 bucks for something, but wouldn't hesitate to buy something similar enough for 25".

I'm not saying your scenario won't happen, but it seems like there is a large enough following for the high end products, and those followers are rather loyal. I do find it a bit sad though that in the near future we will have a choice of 10-30 dollar gear or 150+ dollar gear. I do like experimenting with the middle of the road stuff....

 

[retrox]

A very reasonable theory, xan13x! Either way, I wish we could all just stop bickering over it, kick back with our devices of choice, and enjoy the show. There's sure to be some interesting times ahead in the world of vaping...

 

[_sidekick_]

You guys are talking about all of this prototyping work, which is understandable with atomizers, but the mods themselves are not very intricate... They are a tube with various cuts/engravings on the outside and a 510 connector. Not much to that. The button assembly probably requires more R&D than the mod itself. People buying these "high end" battery tubes are supporting these ridiculous mark-ups.

Again, atomizers are one thing and are often very advanced and require a lot of work to make it function properly, but the same is not true for mods. Turn stock to size, bore, drill, engrave/cut designs, insert battery pin and 510 connector...

 

[Zealous]

Could it be that perhaps the OP is annoyed that a certain mod he really likes is also super expensive?

I get annoyed when looking at high end mods for the same reason lol. I yelled at my computer just the other day because a most beautiful mod is priced at 3k (lol).

But in all seriousness, I don't care if there are clones of higher end mods. I can't really afford the high end mods so I don't have any. But when I do get a mod it will probably be a high end mod (not the 3k one even though it was lovely *sobs*) not because I'm some sort of elitist but because I don't see complaints about stuff breaking with those mods.

 

[CommaHolly]

not because I'm some sort of elitist but because I don't see complaints about stuff breaking with those mods.

exactly why I want one,,,,,,,they rarely break, and when they do, they are pretty easy, fast and inexpensive to have shipped back to the manufacturer and have serviced,,,,,,,try that with a clone.

that's not to say there's anything wrong with buying a lower end device,,,,,,,,

whatever works, right? Everyone has different budgets, expenses, situations,,,,,,,

but for me,,,,,,,,,,as soon as I can afford it,,,,,,,,

 

[sentinefour]

There is a reason why Honda sells plenty of 25,000 dollar civics many years after Hyundai, Kia, etc. have made something similar for half the price....

Actually you can spend $61,000 for a Hyundai Equus.