its official

[fenderstrat]

its official I am recusing myself from all future battery discussions on this forum...LOL but yes I am serious.I found this site about a month ago and LOVE it.I stumbled onto MOOCH's threads almost immediately and they alone are woth the price of admission.really though his threads are awesome.I love the general forum and keeping up to date with whats new and I check in here like 10 times a day...but HONESTLY I cant take the battery stuff any more.Everyday some starts a thread like "I just got x mod whats the best 18650 batts" and off we go...the same bs gets posted every time.
I am no longer going to argue the laws of electrical physics with someone who has no idea what they are talking about yet insist I am an idiot.thats fine ignorance is bliss but i'm not gonna waste my time...if you want to tell me 3 3000 mah batts wired in series is 9000 mah fine,then go on to insult me, cool, I know whats up...as I write this I'm charging batts for my heli....6s 3000mah 65C batts cabable of 195 A bursts......so all you guys running a regulated mod at 50 watts pulling about 5 or 6 amps from your batts worred that the 20amp CDR is not enough...you are right I'm an idiot ...thank you and I will still be here 10 times a day but someone once said to me "never argue with an idiot,they pull you down to their level and people watching cant tell the difference"...carry on

 

[Mooch]

Thank you for your kind words!

Just a side note...
In a regulated mod, a 3S 3000mAh battery pack does have approximately triple the running time of a single 3000mAh battery. It's a little more complicated than that but the Wh for three batteries is triple that of a single battery so there's almost three times the energy available for the regulator to convert. To simplify the explanation a lot of people just say it's the same as a 9000mAh battery.

 

[fenderstrat]

I dont see how it can be the same...you get more runtime because the Volts are 3 times as much so the amp draw will be 1/3 but 3 3000 mah batts in series is still a 3000mah pack correct?I have never once seen a 3 cell pack wired in series labeled as 9000 mah.
if you ran a 1 cell pack at 4.2V and a 3 cell pack at 12.6V would they not get the same runtime?Maybe I'm not underrstanding the terminology but I dont see how you can triple the voltage and triple the runtime,you get one or the other,correct?If so then I do owe someone an apology because I will gladly admit to being wrong, learning what I can and apologizing where necessary

 

[Mooch]

It's easiest if you use watt-hours instead but I'll jump into a different aspect here.

No 3S 3000mAh pack will be labeled 9000mAh. We're talking (roughly) about equivalent capacities, not rated capacity. If a single 18650 has a Wh rating of, let's say, 9.0Wh then three of them will have a rating of 27Wh. This means it can run about three times longer in a regulated mod.

Let's assume a 50W power setting and a 3.0V per battery low voltage cutoff for the mod. With a single battery that's 50W / 3.0V = 16.7A draw from the battery. But if we use a three 18650's then the regulator can work until the voltage drops down to 9V and you get 50W / 9.0V = 5.6A draw from the batteries. Using three batteries results in about three times the run time since the higher battery voltage can be used by the regulator.

It all makes a bit of sense if you just look at three batteries versus one battery. There's three times as much battery goop so the run time should last a lot longer.

 

[fenderstrat]

right 100% but the runtime is increased because the AMP DRAW is decreased not because you are gaining mah capacity.you are gaining runtime because of the tripiling of the V you are not getting 3 times the mah.I understand completely what you are saying but I am going to have to respectfully disagree and still say that a 3 cell battery wired in series using 3000 mah cells is still a 3000mah battery,and yes I agree 100% with your math I am sure its just the wording.I mean really at this point its just splitting hairs
edit:I was sitting here trying to think of a way to make sure I am being clear and explaining myself correctly.yes I do believe you will get approx 3 times the runtime but you cant have it both ways you cant triple the V and the MAH its one or the other.If you put the battery on a charger you are still going to put 3000 or so back into it even though it may have given you 3 times the vape time

 

[fenderstrat]

Sorry but the only reason I am keeping this going is cause I love having a discussion with someone who I can learn from
So lets look at another scenerio If you have a person with a single 18650 mod and they run it at 50 watts its going to have X ammount of runtime,then if you have a mod running 3 18650 in series and its set at 150 watts you are going to get the exact same runtime cause you have taken advantage of the jump in Voltage.You cant run the same mod at 150watts and get 3 times the runtime, and to me, saying a 3 cell 3000mah series batt is going to give you a 12.6V 9000 mah battery just isn't correct,and thats what it is implying.

 

[MorpheusPA]

Sorry but the only reason I am keeping this going is cause I love having a discussion with someone who I can learn from
So lets look at another scenerio If you have a person with a single 18650 mod and they run it at 50 watts its going to have X ammount of runtime,then if you have a mod running 3 18650 in series and its set at 150 watts you are going to get the exact same runtime cause you have taken advantage of the jump in Voltage.You cant run the same mod at 150watts and get 3 times the runtime, and to me, saying a 3 cell 3000mah series batt is going to give you a 12.6V 9000 mah battery just isn't correct,and thats what it is implying.

I'm not Mooch and I don't play him on TV.

But, that's an apples to oranges comparison. One battery running at 50 watts uses fifty watts of power over a given time period.

Three batteries running at 150 watts uses 150 watts of power over a given time period. Or, three times the number of batteries, in a system that dissipates three times the power.

All else equal (it isn't), both systems will have equal run time--because you're consuming triple the power on the three battery system that you are on the single battery mod.

Mr. Mooch isn't saying it works out at 11.1 V and 9,000 mAh. He's saying that the power levels are approximately equivalent when comparing 3.7 V and 9,000 mAh systems and 11.1 V and 3,000 mAh systems (both of which work out around 33.3 watt-hours). A more fair comparison would be to say that, running at exactly the same wattage, I would get about three times the battery life out of a three battery system, and it wouldn't matter if that system had the three batteries in series or in parallel.

(In real life, of course, conversion within the mod wastes some power, so it's always to your advantage to be close to the battery voltage in terms of your draw--but we're ignoring this inefficiency of 3-20% in terms of simplifying the argument).

For somebody with no electrical background, which is most vapers, saying that three batteries triple your runtime is more than close enough. It's also very accurate.

 

[KenD]

Sorry but the only reason I am keeping this going is cause I love having a discussion with someone who I can learn from
So lets look at another scenerio If you have a person with a single 18650 mod and they run it at 50 watts its going to have X ammount of runtime,then if you have a mod running 3 18650 in series and its set at 150 watts you are going to get the exact same runtime cause you have taken advantage of the jump in Voltage.You cant run the same mod at 150watts and get 3 times the runtime, and to me, saying a 3 cell 3000mah series batt is going to give you a 12.6V 9000 mah battery just isn't correct,and thats what it is implying.

I don't think anyone has said that three 3000 mAh (3.7v) batteries will give you a 12.6v 9000 mAh battery (it's 11.1v btw, as nominal voltage is what you should go by). What some might say is that three 3.7v 3000 mAh batteries are roughly equivalent to one 3.7v 9000 mAh battery. Roughly equivalent being the key word.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[rolf]

well ...double the voltage =halv the amps for the same wattage . depending on the regulator buck or boost there is a small difference in efecency . and then there is battery internal resistance which is important ! ...
two resistors in series or in parallel .halvs it in parallel .
that is the reason to use well balanced batterys especily in serrys. same brand and batch please . now charging ...I use a balanced charger on my duel mods.
but on the rx200 I take them out and charge on an external smart charger .mesure voltage on each before reinserting them ...still a little paranoid w three in serrys!
runtime is aprox the multebles of your cells.
ohms law is still there ..for you to use .
be safe .

 

[Mooch]

Sorry but the only reason I am keeping this going is cause I love having a discussion with someone who I can learn from
So lets look at another scenerio If you have a person with a single 18650 mod and they run it at 50 watts its going to have X ammount of runtime,then if you have a mod running 3 18650 in series and its set at 150 watts you are going to get the exact same runtime cause you have taken advantage of the jump in Voltage.You cant run the same mod at 150watts and get 3 times the runtime, and to me, saying a 3 cell 3000mah series batt is going to give you a 12.6V 9000 mah battery just isn't correct,and thats what it is implying.

We're both bringing up correct scenarios, we're just discussing terminology and phrasing now. What can often make it so confusing is that terminology and phrasing can change for everyone.

 

[fenderstrat]

do you want to know how ironic life is......I work at an auto repair shop and today was one of the first days in a while in the 20's and actualy colder before the sun broke out.So we had a ton of walkins and tow/road service calls for dead batteries.....LOL I cant get away from dealing with batts.Although this time 100 dollar plus ones some I had to change in the cold
But its all good I understand completly what you guys are saying.We need some standards Lipos deal in C ratingsfor charging and discharge and most give you a clear burst rating while 18650 dont seem to ever really mention c rate or burst.Some standardization would be nice

 

[MorpheusPA]

I hear ya, today's the first evening we're heading under fifteen. My battery is getting a bit old. I may be jumping mine tomorrow morning and heading to the service station later on when I can!

I know Mooch was trying for pulse rating standardization but I just read his post on Reddit stating it wasn't to be. It doesn't bother me--I personally don't think you should be exceeding the sustained draw rating and I always include a 50% safety margin even when using that on a known-accurate measurement.

But I'd like to see the sustained draw rating standardized as well. So man re-wrappers exaggerate (read: lie) about the battery rating that it's ridiculous.

It's gotten to the point that I only believe LG and Samsung, knowing that Samsung is conservative and LG is accurate.