It's time to fight fire with fire

[twgbonehead]

From what I understand, the money paid by the cigarette taxes are given to the States and some of them put them in the "general fund" not to help smokers' health care expenses. It's up to their discretion on how to spend the money.

In MA, the first HUGE cigarette tax, ($1/pack) MANY years ago was passed with the promise that the funds raised would be appropriated toward anti-smoking campaigns, and smoking cessation support. A month later, the funds were transferred to the general account. A pack of cigarettes in MA is over $10 at the moment, and there are no anti-smoking ads anywhere, and Smoking Cessation Assistance has been limited to once-a-year programs in limited locations (If you are a cigarette smoker with a legal address in Belchertown, please attend a meeting on 3/5/14 where you can receive free materials to help you quit smoking).

Now they don't even pretend. Each additional tax increase on cigarettes is presented as a penalty, not as a remedy.

 

[twgbonehead]

how many housefires are caused annualy from vapors forgetting they had equipment running?
..

How many house fires, deaths, and injuries are caused annually from candles? (It's a lot. Over 100 deaths, over 1000 injuries, in the range of $300Million+ direct losses per year). Not to mention that candle emissions are KNOWN to be MORE toxic than e-cigarettes.

I have brought up this point several times before. What is needed is a reference. Why do we tolerate scented-candle use, but e-cigarette use is such a hazard? Why do we need to protect e-cig USERS from inhaling vapors, while the children are inhaling the (NON FOOD GRADE) scents and other KNOWN toxic substances emitted by candles?

(Candles are a major fire hazard. They are not a major inhalation hazard, DESPITE the fact that they release many more compounds, many of them toxic at certain levels, into the air. Some people are allergic or experience negative reactions to scented or unscented candles. There is absolutely no law regulating candles as to the content or safety of the product. Scented candles are approx a 1.8 billion a year industry, that causes direct losses due to fire at a rate close to 20% of annual sales. No insurance company asks if you use scented candles (either for homeowner's or health insurance) and to my knowledge scented candle use has never been raised as an issue in any child custody or child-endangerment action.).

What we REALLY need is to put some PERSPECTIVE on vaping.

 

[Jay-dub]

Ahhh. I'm woefully out of place here. Sorry for the interruption and thanks for the explanations.

 

[ScottP]

Let's not forget that that an average of 15,000 homes per year in the US are burned down in fires caused by lint in clothes dryers. I have links showing stories of TVs and even fire alarms STARTING fires. Pretty sad if your fire alarm burns your house down. From a fire hazard perspective I have no fear of my PV being a problem.

 

[twgbonehead]

Let's not forget that that an average of 15,000 homes per year in the US are burned down in fires caused by lint in clothes dryers. I have links showing stories of TVs and even fire alarms STARTING fires. Pretty sad if your fire alarm burns your house down. From a fire hazard perspective I have no fear of my PV being a problem.

Exactly. If you try to fight the "e-cigarettes are safer than smoking" fight, it always degenerates into "But how safe are they?"

If you pit vaporizers against candles (which happen to be an excellent analogy) not only does vaping win clearly across the board, trying to regulate those cute little candles is a no-fly zone as far as politicians go. And the e-cig and candle industries are roughly the same size (both are between $1.5-2.5 Billion/year) so the financial cost becomes a pretty direct comparison.

Candles also pose some inhalation risks (higher than vaping). Note that TPA split off TFA, just to make sure their customers understood the difference between flavorings (GRAS for consumption) and scents (NOT GRAS for consumption!). Candles also release other toxic chemicals:


“The annual conference of the American Chemical Society has let it be known that scented candles
made from paraffin wax give off toluene, benzene, and a host of other toxins
linked to asthma, eczema and cancer.” the Mail writes on the findings of the study.
Benzene and toluene, which are released in the air when the paraffin is burnt, are dangerous and
we should avoid inhaling them no matter what, experts agree.

Paraffin, Scented Candles Can Cause Cancer, Study Reveals

Are those concerns legitimate, paranoid, or somewhere in between? Doesn't really matter, candles are widely accepted, unregulated, and more dangerous than vapor.

 

[FourWinds]

I'm going to start telling people that the flavourings in NRT gum makes people impotent.

 

[AndriaD]

I've never seen a vape shop get clouded out like you're referring to.

I was at a vape meet where it got a little foggy, but that was in a small room during a sub-ohm coil building seminar. Get a few dozen of those going at the same time and you can see it.

A vape convention huh? I'm gonna guess that somewhere over 50% of the attendees were huffing and puffing and showing off. Probably an extreme example isn't it? Besides, if there were that many people vaping, who'd be left to complain?

So, yeah, I'm guessing the part of the library that houses the physics and electronics books could become obnoxious.

Well, I guess you guys are just missing out. There's a shop near here, I guess it must be pretty popular; the first time I ever went there, there was no way to mistake which was the vape shop -- through the glass front, it appeared to be a steam room. There were maybe 10-15 people in there, most all of them vaping. And not trying to be obnoxious and see who could make the biggest baddest clouds, that I could see; just sitting around talking, some folks at the counter sampling. It really wasn't all that cold outside, either, to cause all that condensation on the windows; it was maybe 55-60 degrees, a very mild weekend, but moisture was running down the glass. And no, the place is not what I would call 'small'; it was about 2 store-fronts wide, and had a pretty nice sitting area with large tables, in front of the windows; the counter area was probably 15-20 ft long.

So no, I don't think that would be good for books at all. The library I visit most often is almost always quite crowded; if even half the occupants were vaping in a modest way, yeah I think it would cloud up pretty good in there. Probably enough to throw the anti-everything folks into genuine hysterics, which I would actually find rather amusing, but I take no pleasure in harming books; library books are handled by so many people, they really need to be taken care of. I like books better than I like most people, anyway.

Andria

 

[Dominique Hoogduin]

Well, I guess you guys are just missing out. There's a shop near here, I guess it must be pretty popular; the first time I ever went there, there was no way to mistake which was the vape shop -- through the glass front, it appeared to be a steam room. There were maybe 10-15 people in there, most all of them vaping. And not trying to be obnoxious and see who could make the biggest baddest clouds, that I could see; just sitting around talking, some folks at the counter sampling. It really wasn't all that cold outside, either, to cause all that condensation on the windows; it was maybe 55-60 degrees, a very mild weekend, but moisture was running down the glass. And no, the place is not what I would call 'small'; it was about 2 store-fronts wide, and had a pretty nice sitting area with large tables, in front of the windows; the counter area was probably 15-20 ft long.

So no, I don't think that would be good for books at all. The library I visit most often is almost always quite crowded; if even half the occupants were vaping in a modest way, yeah I think it would cloud up pretty good in there. Probably enough to throw the anti-everything folks into genuine hysterics, which I would actually find rather amusing, but I take no pleasure in harming books; library books are handled by so many people, they really need to be taken care of. I like books better than I like most people, anyway.

Andria

well rather have low hanging clouds (fog) then a room filled with cig smoke. As for the books.. Im assuming a library has a good climate control keeping the inside air humidity at a book friendly level. Doubt a civil amount of vapors can vape up against that. Dont know enough vapers over here else id test that with a hygrometer.

 

[AndriaD]

well rather have low hanging clouds (fog) then a room filled with cig smoke. As for the books.. Im assuming a library has a good climate control keeping the inside air humidity at a book friendly level. Doubt a civil amount of vapors can vape up against that. Dont know enough vapers over here else id test that with a hygrometer.

Of course, far better than cigarette smoke. And it's probably true that a library would have a dehumidifier running concurrent with the HVAC. But even with that, and even given the relative harmlessness of "2nd hand vaping"... you know those anti-everything folks are never going to go along with vaping in a library -- if for no other reason than that children and adolescents are present, and you know how those folks are about that -- the Precious Ones must not even SEE anything which might warp their delicate sensibilities, nevermind inhale a few molecules of it in the form of a smell. *coughcoughBScoughcough*

I agree that those people are genuine idiots, and genuinely annoying to pretty much everyone. But that's one ban I won't have any trouble going along with, mainly because I *do* like books better than I like most people, and at this point, we just don't know what the long-term effects are, to people, to places, to environments. I'd hate it if all the books were ruined by water vapor. God knows, that would just give those forbid-everything people reason to burn those books -- you know they *hate* the idea of giving young people "ideas."

I guess what I'm finding hardest to understand is why the idea of "caution" seems so repellent. I think caution is always a good idea. But maybe it's because I'm past 50, and have seen the results too often of not using caution, and those results are usually not pretty.

Andria

 

[Jman8]

Well, I guess you guys are just missing out. There's a shop near here, I guess it must be pretty popular; the first time I ever went there, there was no way to mistake which was the vape shop -- through the glass front, it appeared to be a steam room. There were maybe 10-15 people in there, most all of them vaping. And not trying to be obnoxious and see who could make the biggest baddest clouds, that I could see; just sitting around talking, some folks at the counter sampling. It really wasn't all that cold outside, either, to cause all that condensation on the windows; it was maybe 55-60 degrees, a very mild weekend, but moisture was running down the glass. And no, the place is not what I would call 'small'; it was about 2 store-fronts wide, and had a pretty nice sitting area with large tables, in front of the windows; the counter area was probably 15-20 ft long.

So no, I don't think that would be good for books at all.

Guess what?

I agree with you. Opening a vape shop, where 10 to 15 people can sample products at any time, inside a library would not be good for the books.

Though, I'm thinking there will be very few libraries, if any, that attract that many vapers in their building at one point, who are all there, at the same time, to blow huge clouds and try out umpteen flavor combinations. I also think there are places in a library, like most public places, where vaping would do nothing to the environment, well unless THV is a reality. Which, in that case, if you do vape, you probably ought to never go to a library at any point.

The library I visit most often is almost always quite crowded; if even half the occupants were vaping in a modest way, yeah I think it would cloud up pretty good in there. Probably enough to throw the anti-everything folks into genuine hysterics, which I would actually find rather amusing, but I take no pleasure in harming books; library books are handled by so many people, they really need to be taken care of. I like books better than I like most people, anyway.

Again, I don't think you'll find a library where even 5% of the people in there are vaping, unless there is like 4 people in the entire building. Then it could go as high as 50% in that case, of which there would be 0% chance of clouds forming.

Thank goodness for Kindle.
Welcome to the 21st century.

 

[Uma]

AndriaD, that vape shop needs a better ventilating system, period. Imagine, if you will, that many non-vaping persons exhaling the typical toxins that non-Vapers and non-smokers exhale. The typical non-Vaper exhales more nasty stuff than a Vaper does. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. With the vapor, because we can see it, we do know what's not in it. Pg kills germs, nicotine kills bugs, for some reason the Vaper exhales way less formaldehyde if any, whereas the non-Vaper exhales quite a bit.
Even so, that vape shop could seriously use an HVAQ system. This is where the MSA/TSET, ALA, ACS, etc should be providing zero interest loans or incentives to help establishments and even private homes install proper ventilating systems. Just the carpeting glues, drapes, linoleum, paneling, of the average home out gasses on a daily basis. Even a saints home is deadly. A lot of people have gone "green", but too many "green" definitions leave the planet just as toxic as it began. Just like the label "natural flavorings". Ewwww. Have you ever wondered what that really means? Beaver butts and rat droppings anyone? How about the label "natural" vs "organic". How about high phosphorus soil.
We are surrounded by deadly, from the afore mentioned scented candles, to the foods we eat. Even your fancy green teas are laced with pesticides or the bags are carcenogentic. Yet, the ALA, TSET, etc, spend the educational money on lobbying against a vapor that literally carries less hazard than the typical stuffed teddy bear that your kid refuses to be without.

 

[Uma]

How fast times change. Today,mwe have to exclude the safer soy candles as well, due to gmo (pesticide laden) soy.

"Naturally scented, beeswax (or soy or vegetable) candles are OK, no matter how often we want to light them, the study says. Those that contain paraffin and artificial scents are not, though, being linked to a plethora of affections, including asthma attacks, lung cancer and all sorts of allergies. Still, those who light one or two candles every now and then when they take a bath are not in any serious danger, the study adds: it’s those who do it every day and then inhale the toxic fumes that should consider themselves warned."

GMO Soy Repeatedly Linked to Sterility, Infant Mortality, Birth Defects | NationofChange
Gmo soy repeatedly linked to infant mortality, birth defects, ...

 

[AndriaD]

How fast times change. Today,mwe have to exclude the safer soy candles as well, due to gmo (pesticide laden) soy.

"Naturally scented, beeswax (or soy or vegetable) candles are OK, no matter how often we want to light them, the study says. Those that contain paraffin and artificial scents are not, though, being linked to a plethora of affections, including asthma attacks, lung cancer and all sorts of allergies. Still, those who light one or two candles every now and then when they take a bath are not in any serious danger, the study adds: it’s those who do it every day and then inhale the toxic fumes that should consider themselves warned."

GMO Soy Repeatedly Linked to Sterility, Infant Mortality, Birth Defects | NationofChange
Gmo soy repeatedly linked to infant mortality, birth defects, ...

I've been fighting against the GMO crap for a few years now; those boneheads just don't seem to get that messing with the DNA of something that has evolved slowly over many many many years is a PIG STUPID IDEA. Or even stuff that has evolved more quickly via natural hybridization techniques. You know why so many miscarriages are never even known about? Because "mother nature" knows when a given combo of genes is just not working, and gets rid of it naturally, PDQ. That's natural selection at work. Those TOTAL F'ING GOOBERS just want to play Frankenstein, yet totally disregard the moral of that tale, that some things are just not in the purview of man! GAHHHHHHHHHHHHH! I'd love to dismantle Monsanto brick by brick, before they completely destroy this planet and everything and everyone on it. But they're practicing SCIENCE -- to hell with AGRICULTURE! You can't tell those college-educated-idiots anything, they know it all.

And RE that other post -- organic??? What utter useless HYPE. Organic is for the stuff you raise yourself, not what should be found at the market (for twice the price and no greater value).

Ok, I'll stop ranting... reluctantly. But those college-educated-idiots are the stupidest people on the entire planet.

Andria

 

[ScottP]

I've been fighting against the GMO crap for a few years now; those boneheads just don't seem to get that messing with the DNA of something that has evolved slowly over many many many years is a PIG STUPID IDEA. Or even stuff that has evolved more quickly via natural hybridization techniques. You know why so many miscarriages are never even known about? Because "mother nature" knows when a given combo of genes is just not working, and gets rid of it naturally, PDQ. That's natural selection at work. Those TOTAL F'ING GOOBERS just want to play Frankenstein, yet totally disregard the moral of that tale, that some things are just not in the purview of man! GAHHHHHHHHHHHHH! I'd love to dismantle Monsanto brick by brick, before they completely destroy this planet and everything and everyone on it. But they're practicing SCIENCE -- to hell with AGRICULTURE! You can't tell those college-educated-idiots anything, they know it all.

And RE that other post -- organic??? What utter useless HYPE. Organic is for the stuff you raise yourself, not what should be found at the market (for twice the price and no greater value).

Ok, I'll stop ranting... reluctantly. But those college-educated-idiots are the stupidest people on the entire planet.

Andria

Seriously you would have thought they would have learned their lesson about messing with nature after the whole killer bee fiasco. But no, they just have to keep screwing around with it.

 

[Dominique Hoogduin]

I've been fighting against the GMO crap for a few years now; those boneheads just don't seem to get that messing with the DNA of something that has evolved slowly over many many many years is a PIG STUPID IDEA. Or even stuff that has evolved more quickly via natural hybridization techniques. You know why so many miscarriages are never even known about? Because "mother nature" knows when a given combo of genes is just not working, and gets rid of it naturally, PDQ. That's natural selection at work. Those TOTAL F'ING GOOBERS just want to play Frankenstein, yet totally disregard the moral of that tale, that some things are just not in the purview of man! GAHHHHHHHHHHHHH! I'd love to dismantle Monsanto brick by brick, before they completely destroy this planet and everything and everyone on it. But they're practicing SCIENCE -- to hell with AGRICULTURE! You can't tell those college-educated-idiots anything, they know it all.

And RE that other post -- organic??? What utter useless HYPE. Organic is for the stuff you raise yourself, not what should be found at the market (for twice the price and no greater value).

Ok, I'll stop ranting... reluctantly. But those college-educated-idiots are the stupidest people on the entire planet.

Andria

although messing with DNA is a grey area.. i can see why one would alter crops to grow faster or be more resistant to certain climates so they can grow where they usually wouldnt. food is scarce in some parts of the world and crops sometimes cant grow in certain places and im all for engineering something that grows to supply for people that would have a hard time without it. With a world population growing rampantly (and soon after the new vape world order even less ppl will hit the bucket because of smoking) food will become an issue. Leaving it to natural selection might cause some unwanted side effects.. like famine, hunger.

 

[Dominique Hoogduin]

Seriously you would have thought they would have learned their lesson about messing with nature after the whole killer bee fiasco. But no, they just have to keep screwing around with it.

we mess with nature over here all the time.. else we would have drowned centuries ago. Its not always bad to step in where mother nature just wants u dead. nature gets it right most of the time. Science takes trial and error and learning from that. It's much like evolution but at a faster rate.

 

[ScottP]

we mess with nature over here all the time.. else we would have drowned centuries ago. Its not always bad to step in where mother nature just wants u dead. nature gets it right most of the time. Science takes trial and error and learning from that. It's much like evolution but at a faster rate.

There is a huge difference between building a bridge or a dam and alerting the DNA of something then eating it.

 

[Dominique Hoogduin]

There is a huge difference between building a bridge or a dam and alerting the DNA of something then eating it.

true.. but do no ever underestimate the impact on nature by building a DAM, closing a waterway or building a bridge. Its a delicate balance .. U block one waterway.. one species cannot get to their mating grounds for example.. they die out.. the species that they used to eat rampages wild and from there on a lot of nasty stuff can happen.

Even when not messing with DNA u can mess up nature pretty easily.

 

[Ken_A]

we mess with nature over here all the time.. else we would have drowned centuries ago. Its not always bad to step in where mother nature just wants u dead. nature gets it right most of the time. Science takes trial and error and learning from that. It's much like evolution but at a faster rate.

Humans have been genetically modifying things for thousands of years. I think the issue here is that GMO products are ones that are directly manipulated, then sold without the impact being known. As with the VAPING issue, it's all about the ways to keep making profits without accepting responsibility for the product.

PULLING......PUUUUUUULLING.... The topic back to the more common issues for the forum... BT and BP.....AND BG
(big tobacco, big pharmaceuticals, big government)
ALL make money out of the slow, painful, death of millions of people each year by NOT providing a workable alternative to smoking. Now that we have such a solution despite them, they are working to lay fears for the public and get something safe demonized so they can get rid of it in favor of "the devil you know".
I do what very little I can to slow them down to the point that today's less than intelligent John Q. Public will have a chance to realize what is happening and help us stop it. However, we really NEED someone with a LOT more talent, ability and drive than I have to get us organized into a force for truth.

 

[AndriaD]

Humans have been genetically modifying things for thousands of years. I think the issue here is that GMO products are ones that are directly manipulated, then sold without the impact being known. As with the VAPING issue, it's all about the ways to keep making profits without accepting responsibility for the product.

PULLING......PUUUUUUULLING.... The topic back to the more common issues for the forum... BT and BP.....AND BG
(big tobacco, big pharmaceuticals, big government)
ALL make money out of the slow, painful, death of millions of people each year by NOT providing a workable alternative to smoking. Now that we have such a solution despite them, they are working to lay fears for the public and get something safe demonized so they can get rid of it in favor of "the devil you know".
I do what very little I can to slow them down to the point that today's less than intelligent John Q. Public will have a chance to realize what is happening and help us stop it. However, we really NEED someone with a LOT more talent, ability and drive than I have to get us organized into a force for truth.

And I do agree with you; my feeling that caution is needed RE: vaping is mainly because of what you said in the first paragraph -- "without the impact being known." I'm talking long-term impact, and considering that vaping is a fairly new phenomenon, there's no way the long-term impact can be known, until many more years go by. I do agree however that the need for caution should NOT result in blanket bans, which are just mercenary in nature; what it means, I think, is that those of us who quit smoking via vaping will actually be around for more years, so that the long-term impact *can* be known!

I really didn't mean to get into that rant about GMO, it's just a hot-button topic for me. I've read some sci-fi and other stories on this very subject -- what happens if you engineer a food-stuff that's completely impervious to any kind of depradation? You get a food-stuff that will not digest, that will in fact kill you because it's impervious even to biological metabolism in the body. It's a scary idea, yet these brainiac scientists don't seem to get that modifying food in this manner could have all sorts of horrible implications. Right now it appears that vaping is all or mostly harmless, but who knows how it will appear in 10, 20, 50 yrs? We can't know the future with any degree of precision, and it's impossible to see the logical consequences, that many "moves ahead."

And ScottP mentioned bees -- did you all realize that the pesticide which is wreaking havoc with the bees we need in order to keep HAVING crops is a *neonicotinoid* pesticide? What is it, some modern synthetic version of nicotine? I don't know for sure, but it sounds like it might be. Does that have any implications for our willing and intentional use of the original nicotine? I don't know that, either, but does anyone, really? Playing with the forces of nature just seems like playing with fire, IMHO. Yes, it can be done, but does that mean that it ALWAYS SHOULD BE? Before the full implications of doing so have even been studied, nevermind known? I know that some of the GMO foods have been created with the idea of eradicating famine, but there ARE other ways of doing that which don't involve "splitting the atom" of the foundation of life. They're looking for a shortcut, or a "scientific means" so that they can patent it and make many billions, trillions of dollars, while claiming to be 'working for the common good.' I find it disturbing on a great many fronts.

Andria