Juice, Viscosity Ratings, Disclosure

[JohnKing]

All I ever hear about in regards to juices is FLAVOR and maybe a reference to PG/VG content. I know from trial and error, a nice way to say "wasted time and money" that no matter how nice a juice tastes there is a good possibility that it won't work in my device of choice, it may be too thin, too thick, doesn't wick well, wicks too well, etc..

Others waste time and money in a quest for throat hit, vapor production, etc.

Most of this wasted time and money could be prevented if juice vendors simply applied a viscosity grade to their juices. It would also go a long way in engendering trust for that vendor. It would be fairly trivial for a noob to discover what thickness of juice works for him/her instead of a near perpetual quest for that "just right" blend of juice. It would also go a long way in providing consistency to the end user, batches of juice differing from one lot to another, etc..user mis-diagnoses, buys more batteries, attys, wastes more time and money ... because the viscosity of the juice is unknown and varies from lot to lot.

How hard can it be to come up with a viscosity rating? I'd like to run straight 30 weight..lol..c'mon juice suppliers, get on the ball or is the wasted TIME AND MONEY incurred by your customer too much of a profit center? Viscosity isn't subjective like flavors and is trivial to calculate, you would be doing your customers a solid if you got on the ball.

How many of you would like a consistently performing juice?

Do you feel like you are gambling a bit every time you buy juice?

 

[JohnKing]

Just wanted to follow up on this and make the reccomendation that if viscosities were made known, equipment suppliers could make proper reccomendations on their attys, cartomizers, etc.

My guess is that the manufacturers already know what viscosities work best for their devices but since no one is actually publishing that data, they don't bother with reccos.

I kind of see this like an automobile issue, you buy a car, it starts pinging, the dealer tells you to try a thicker oil? Nah, they know what the engine needs to perform optimally and are very specific as to what liquids and their respective viscosities are. Cars don't ping given the proper oil and most vaping coil/heater/wick combos do work correctly given the proper fluid thickness.

I'm kind of on a rant here because this only popped into my head after doing the whole, aquarium filter, polyfill, stand on your head and count to three and then squeeze "mods" when a simple calculation on the part of suppliers would have given me a baseline (90W, 100w, whatever) to play with and get dialed in to the right juice without creating a new mini-career as a "vaper". I mean geez folks, this is crazy to have to do this much trial and error, I may have to go back to analogs because I simply don't have the time to waste on the tinkering.

rant over.

Please do a better job out there.

 

[ShannonS]

Adjusting juice thickness changes throat hit and vapor production and sweetness to a small degree. It is all personal preference and it is easy to adjust a juice if you don't like the thickness of it by thinning with distilled water, PCG or PG. You can increase thickness by adding VG. Lots of vendors already list the ratio of PG and VG and that will give you a really good idea of how thick the juice is. I've never wasted juice because of a "wrong" thickness. Any juice you buy will work in any PV, silly new person. This makes as much sense as standardizing "flavor".

Higher VG = Thicker Juice

Maybe you should go back to analogs. Dying of COPD is probably much better than wasting time on tinkering.

 

[JohnKing]

The juice vendors could tell you what they prefer to vape on their devices. Adjusting juice thickness changes throat hit and vapor production and sweetness to a small degree. It is all personal preference and it is easy to adjust a juice if you don't like the thickness of it by thinning with distilled water, PCG or PG. You can increase thickness by adding VG. Lots of vendors already list the ratio of PG and VG and that will give you a really good idea of how thick the juice is. I've never wasted juice because of a "wrong" thickness. Any juice you buy will work in any PV, silly new person.

Higher VG = Thicker Juice

Maybe you should go back to analogs. Dying of COPD is probably much better wasting time on tinkering.

Yes, this is precisely what I am talking about. I need to setup a mini-lab and tinker to get something just right (until the next mystery bottle shows up, and then it's rinse, repeat, tinker), if a simple simple viscosity were disclosed by juice vendors I could just vape and more importantly, buy in confidence.

I see here that most vapers are also sideline "tinkerers", they probably enjoy the whole aspect of fiddling around with this stuff. Of course, that leaves a very large market out there who aren't suited to vaping/tinkering. Someone who gets it right will be rewarded in the marketplace.

 

[AttyPops]

....snip.... Any juice you buy will work in any PV, silly new person. This makes as much sense as standardizing "flavor".

Higher VG = Thicker Juice

Maybe you should go back to analogs. Dying of COPD is probably much better than wasting time on tinkering.

Out of line...IMO Hope you were joking Shannon.....

To the OP:

I did a thing when I started .... I made a "viscosity card" for the very reasons you discussed. I've abandoned it to the trash, since I just "tinker" with my DIY juice and change the thickness/viscosity as needed. But if you want to get into at least semi-precise measurements of viscosity, here's what I did to get fairly consistent e-juice:

Take a business card (coated) or other piece of plastic and make a little "ramp"/inclined plane by folding 1/4 of it. Draw a little circle on it or a line or something to mark the "start" spot near the top. Draw another line at the bottom (or just use the bottom). Grab your watch, and put one drop from juice that you like at the "start. Time it to the "end". This is the timing of your ideal juice. Thicker juice is slower, thinner faster. Use the same dropper each time. Have fun.

I used some DIYFlavorShack cards that they gave me in a kit. I knew where to fold em based on text. Sounds hokey, worked great. I always knew if my juice was too thick/thin.

IDK about vendor disclosure given the variety of the mixes out there. But you can adjust it yourself. Also, temperature is a major factor in juice viscosity (I vape "outside" in a breezeway type area ... it's cold this time of year!)

Anyway, using some measuring device to do it works, now I just "eyeball" it.

Good Luck.

 

[ShannonS]

Of course. When our only option was Dekang juice, we all love having no choice, but it was wonderful because everything was the same thickness.

You don't have to tinker for any juice to vape in your PV. If you aren't willing to tinker, be willing to vape what you can get off the shelf.

I add garlic to my store bought spaghetti sauce, many people do fine just heating it. So all spaghetti sauce makers should publish the exact amount of garlic in their sauce so you don't have to worry about the possibility of having to add extra garlic, right?

Silly, see?

 

[ShannonS]

Out of line...IMO Hope you were joking Shannon.....

I'm not being mean. Some people are looking for excuses not to quit while in the process of quitting, looking justification for smoking over vaping, it is how the addicted mind works. Reminding someone why they wanted to switch in the first place can help get someone back on track.

Ranting at juice vendors for not listing a viscosity number that most people wouldn't understand in the first place kind of falls into that category.

 

[JohnKing]

Of course. When our only option was Dekang juice, we all love having no choice, but it was wonderful because everything was the same thickness.

You don't have to tinker for any juice to vape in your PV. If you aren't willing to tinker, be willing to vape what you can get off the shelf.

I add garlic to my store bought spaghetti sauce, many people do fine just heating it. So all spaghetti sauce makers should publish the exact amount of garlic in their sauce so you don't have to worry about the possibility of having to add extra garlic, right?

Silly, see?

No, what would be silly is if every time you opened your "store bought" sauce, it was different.

anyway, as I said, I don't think it would be difficult to disclose and publish viscosity, the cost/benefit could be huge for those wanting to deliver a consistent product to their customers, not here to win or lose an argument. You like to tinker, you don't need to get defensive about it.

..store bought sauce ....I have a Sicilian GF...I kinda feel sorry for the rest of the world when it comes to sauce.

 

[JohnKing]

Out of line...IMO Hope you were joking Shannon.....

To the OP:

I did a thing when I started .... I made a "viscosity card" for the very reasons you discussed. I've abandoned it to the trash, since I just "tinker" with my DIY juice and change the thickness/viscosity as needed. But if you want to get into at least semi-precise measurements of viscosity, here's what I did to get fairly consistent e-juice:

Take a business card (coated) or other piece of plastic and make a little "ramp"/inclined plane by folding 1/4 of it. Draw a little circle on it or a line or something to mark the "start" spot near the top. Draw another line at the bottom (or just use the bottom). Grab your watch, and put one drop from juice that you like at the "start. Time it to the "end". This is the timing of your ideal juice. Thicker juice is slower, thinner faster. Use the same dropper each time. Have fun.

I used some DIYFlavorShack cards that they gave me in a kit. I knew where to fold em based on text. Sounds hokey, worked great. I always knew if my juice was too thick/thin.

IDK about vendor disclosure given the variety of the mixes out there. But you can adjust it yourself. Also, temperature is a major factor in juice viscosity (I vape "outside" in a breezeway type area ... it's cold this time of year!)

Anyway, using some measuring device to do it works, now I just "eyeball" it.

Good Luck.

Thank you for the kind words and the tips but that is my point, why do we have to become inventors/chemists/lab rats to just get a consistent juice. I'm not asking vendors to change anything except label the viscosity of their juice, it would solve a multitude of problems for the vaper at a miniscule cost to them.

This is not an argument thread, this is a suggestion thread, most vapers also like to tinker, otherwise they wouldn't vape, I like to tinker too, I'm not attacking tinkerers.


sheesh

 

[ShannonS]

Of course. Suggestions in rant form are always the most effective way of communicating ideas.

You kind of slid over the facts that any juice works in any PV and viscosity has nothing to do with safety, which is what I was attempting to point out.

Is finding out the PG/VG ratio of the juice you like best and buying more of that PG/VG ratio a problem?

 

[ScottB]

How many of you would like a consistently performing juice?

You're not alone. I posted in the Industry Concerns thread back around Thanksgiving:

"...As far as pure function, the juice makers should agree on some kind of viscosity rating to allow the end user to better match hardware or vaping-style to the juice they're trying to use - or to better match juice choices to their hardware and vaping style..."

Higher VG = Thicker Juice.

Only partially & sometimes true. VG is cut very often with distilled water, PGA, etc. I personally own 30%vg juice (2) that's thinner than some of my all pg based juice (4).

Ranting at juice vendors for not listing a viscosity number that most people wouldn't understand in the first place kind of falls into that category.

Sometimes we forget that we are not "most people". There is a much larger vaping community than represented here on ECF. And if learning "V-ratings" was part of the initial learning curve, everyone would learn it like everything else that needs to be learned about vaping.

But back to the OP. The industry may get around to this. Maybe not. Vaping gel has shown up. The industry may head in that direction. As hot as the business is right now, it's still young and improvement ideas are all over the map.

All of that said JohnKing, if a juice "V-rating" existed right now, the current inconsistency in the hardware would overcome the consistency in the juice, and you would be equally frustrated. Maybe in another year or two...? Who knows...

 

[JohnKing]

Of course. Suggestions in rant form are always the most effective way of communicating ideas.

You kind of slid over the facts that any juice works in any PV and viscosity has nothing to do with safety, which is what I was attempting to point out.

Is finding out the PG/VG ratio of the juice you like best and buying more of that PG/VG ratio a problem?

I think you see an argument here where none exists. If you like to buy mystery mixtures and tinker, that's fine by me. I don't have a lot of time to tinker on vaping and most others don't either. Give me a viscosity rating, it's not rocket surgery.

 

[lasttango]

You make a really good point... but I typically avoid wasting money on companies with a low grade product simply by reading reputable reviews and asking questions.
I'm too unlucky to tinker... but I do make a point to buy better performing juices...

Juice performance is very important - probably more important than flavor for me... - that's a major reason I stopped using vendor XXX and YYY. Good taste, but runs out of atties, heats up to quick, burns my throat/mouth...

Juice performance is a reason I am a huge BWB fan...

I see no problem starting a juice performance thread where the emphasis is on performance with particular atties and volts...

like... my cisco 306 works great with juices from XXX at a 70/30 pg/vg ratio... but not as well with thicker VG juices etc...

 

[JohnKing]

How many of you would like a consistently performing juice?

All of that said JohnKing, if a juice "V-rating" existed right now, the current inconsistency in the hardware would overcome the consistency in the juice, and you would be equally frustrated. Maybe in another year or two...? Who knows...

right. I get that, I buy a five pack of ceramic carts, they all act a bit differently due to coil tightness, wire length, wick, etc., throw in a battery that drains and it starts to get a little wonky, those are all pretty difficult to overcome but the one known variable, the thickness of the juice could help greatly in identifying other aspects of device performance.

I see like 50 new "cart mod" type threads a day...they are all useless for one reason, a cart mod (the wicking process) will work differently on every different juice, if the viscosity info were available this wouldn't be so. As it is now, I kind of watch in wonder as everyone is cutting up foams and tea bags and claiming great results, while others complain about leaking and vapor production, it seems almost cruel to the community to not disclose the one variable that you can easily quantify, the viscosity.

You also see this with carts, people say "that cart is great..blah blah".. the next one..."I got a mouthful of juice" and everyone is pre-conditioned to say "everyone vapes differently, keep trying" when most of those issues of uniformity could be solved by simple disclosure.

Do you guess at the gas pump...oh maybe I'll add a a little ethanaol to the tank if it doesn't work. It's silly that vendors aren't doing this. Do you guess when you buy sauce...please, I repeat, this not rocket science, it is just a viscosity label.

Cool that you brought this up earlier though, I'm glad others see the issue.

 

[ScottB]

...please, I repeat, this not rocket science...

Actually, you're not repeating... you first typed "rocket surgery"... which made me chuckle... what the hell - this thread already needed a little levity...

 

[JohnKing]

You make a really good point... but I typically avoid wasting money on companies with a low grade product simply by reading reputable reviews and asking questions.
I'm too unlucky to tinker... but I do make a point to buy better performing juices...

Juice performance is very important - probably more important than flavor for me... - that's a major reason I stopped using vendor XXX and YYY. Good taste, but runs out of atties, heats up to quick, burns my throat/mouth...

Juice performance is a reason I am a huge BWB fan...

I see no problem starting a juice performance thread where the emphasis is on performance with particular atties and volts...

like... my cisco 306 works great with juices from XXX at a 70/30 pg/vg ratio... but not as well with thicker VG juices etc...

Okay, there you go, I read all the fantastic reviews on BWB and went over and bought 3 bottles, yes, I know they have a nice flavor, I was able to detect that but they are simply too thin for me, the juice runs through my cart like water.

Now, this is where everyone jumps in and tells me to add VG...blah blah or even "try dripping"...no, my answer is I'm not spending another dime there because it doesn't work for me. Now, if he were to pick up the ball and label viscosity I probably would but I'm not going to drop another 30 bucks to find out I have to add more VG or do a blue fluval cart mod with straw while standing on my head with no socks...that's not smart. A juice vendors inability to label shouldn't cost me time and money, it will cost him though.

 

[JohnKing]

Actually, you're not repeating... you first typed "rocket surgery"... which made me chuckle... what the hell - this thread already needed a little levity...

hehe...someone is reading..

 

[IMWylde]

Liquid Vapor viscosity is effected by several things. Temperature and age being two. The amount of of VG in a a Juice is the best indicator of viscosity and you learn that you prefer juices made with a say 70% VG blend which is always thicker then a 40% VG blend. these are things you gain from experience much in the same way that you decided your preference of menthol over regular or Pall Mall over Marlboro.

If your liquid vapor provider can't tell you what % of VG is in use in your mix then find another provider. Find a BRAND you like and viola your search is complete.

To be honest this is the very first time I have heard anyone calling for a viscosity rating. I'm sure it could be done but since that information is of relatively little import to most users probably not forthcoming.

Getting angry with the OP doesn't seem necessary. Condemning him to death even less so. Maybe get a handle on your anger management or hold off of the post button long enough to think it through?

 

[JohnKing]

Liquid Vapor viscosity is effected by several things. Temperature and age being two. The amount of of VG in a a Juice is the best indicator of viscosity and you learn that you prefer juices made with a say 70% VG blend which is always thicker then a 40% VG blend. these are things you gain from experience much in the same way that you decided your preference of menthol over regular or Pall Mall over Marlboro.

If your liquid vapor provider can't tell you what % of VG is in use in your mix then find another provider. Find a BRAND you like and viola your search is complete.

To be honest this is the very first time I have heard anyone calling for a viscosity rating. I'm sure it could be done but since that information is of relatively little import to most users probably not forthcoming.

Getting angry with the OP doesn't seem necessary. Condemning him to death even less so. Maybe get a handle on your anger management or hold off of the post button long enough to think it through?

That is the way it is done now, take an educated guess on VG/PG/Whatever else is in it ratios and spin the wheel. I'm only suggesting an improvement, a standard so to speak so I don't shoot the dice every time I buy juice. I'm not quite understanding the resistance here, does everyone like the mystery element of vape related purchases?

 

[JonnyVapΣ]

Mountains out of mole hills.
Unless you eat Ramen noodles every day, for every meal, then this whole juice viscosity thing really isn't that hard to overcome. Nothing about vaping is really that hard, actually. As stated above, simple temperature change will affect juice viscosity enough to make "ratings" useless.
Do more research and truly understand the product you're using here instead of trying to change an entire industry to suit your personal needs (laziness). If it's still too hard might I suggest you slap a patch on or chew some nicotine gum. Those are consistent and easy to use.