You're actually trying to compare precision machinery to an electronic cigarette. Awesome.
Getting close to 50!
Juice, Viscosity Ratings, Disclosure
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You're actually trying to compare precision machinery to an electronic cigarette. Awesome.
Getting close to 50!
@OP honestly if you are flooding your device or getting a burned flavor, we can probably help you fix it without a call for an industry overhaul 
Sigh. LOL. I love ECF!
Look, viscosity makes a difference. Sure. So does temp (esp since it changes viscosity). So... when a vendor custom mixes a juice to a user's requested PG/VG ratio, are they supposed to measure the resulting viscosity in, say, a 10 ml bottle and the slap some kind of sticker on it?
Here.... e-Juice viscosity rating: mls of vg / total mls. That way they don't have to measure it at a standard temp.
Oh, and you can calculate it yourself if you know the mix ratio. If you don't know, THAT is a good point for disclosure. Also, this gets complicated, since some juices break down over time (I think). And different flavors break down differently. What a mess... Just add a little VG if you need to, or order juice that is 50% vg.......
Look, viscosity makes a difference. Sure. So does temp (esp since it changes viscosity). So... when a vendor custom mixes a juice to a user's requested PG/VG ratio, are they supposed to measure the resulting viscosity in, say, a 10 ml bottle and the slap some kind of sticker on it?
Here.... e-Juice viscosity rating: mls of vg / total mls. That way they don't have to measure it at a standard temp.
Oh, and you can calculate it yourself if you know the mix ratio. If you don't know, THAT is a good point for disclosure. Also, this gets complicated, since some juices break down over time (I think). And different flavors break down differently. What a mess... Just add a little VG if you need to, or order juice that is 50% vg.......
@OP honestly if you are flooding your device or getting a burned flavor, we can probably help you fix it without a call for an industry overhaul
You speak for the industry? Actually when a bunch of "consumers" get all ornery over a subject that may benefit them, I assume I'm not talking to consumers anymore, just industry shills.
It's just not rational for a real consumer to demand less transparency from vendors. Do you buy mystery products in the grocery store? Demand that nutrition labels be removed, mock people for wanting to know what is in their food, toys, etc?
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Normally I would just ignore this and move on, but I guess I'm just in foul mood today.
As people have already said, there is already a general viscosity rating on the juice. It's known as VG percentage. The more VG you ask for, the thicker the juice. Some vendors let you pick the amount of PG/VG you want, some use a standardized amount and post it on their website. Going any farther would be like asking Little Debbie and Hostess to get together and tell the consumer the ratio of cream filling to cake. If you don't like one, try another. BWB mixes at 70/30 PG/VG, it's posted plain as day on the front page of the website. I personally mix my own at 85/15, much thinner, and I have absolutely no trouble with juice running out of my attys. You might just want to try and find out why you are, as I seriously doubt it's BWB's juice, or anyone else's for that matter, that is causing your problem. As for standardization, you won't see any food company telling you what percentage of each ingredient they use, or how thick your soup is going to be. That's the closest we can come to comparisons here, not car oil, because what we are using is basically a consumable. Cars are built to use a certain viscosity of oil, our e-cigs aren't. We can't even agree on a standard name to call the e-cigs/PVs/whatever. You want standard? We can always go back to having nothing but DeKang juice; one brand, one thickness, thin as water in both viscosity and flavor.
And yeah, someone has been pissing in my post toasties for the last couple of years, don't mind me, nothing to see here, move along.
As people have already said, there is already a general viscosity rating on the juice. It's known as VG percentage. The more VG you ask for, the thicker the juice. Some vendors let you pick the amount of PG/VG you want, some use a standardized amount and post it on their website. Going any farther would be like asking Little Debbie and Hostess to get together and tell the consumer the ratio of cream filling to cake. If you don't like one, try another. BWB mixes at 70/30 PG/VG, it's posted plain as day on the front page of the website. I personally mix my own at 85/15, much thinner, and I have absolutely no trouble with juice running out of my attys. You might just want to try and find out why you are, as I seriously doubt it's BWB's juice, or anyone else's for that matter, that is causing your problem. As for standardization, you won't see any food company telling you what percentage of each ingredient they use, or how thick your soup is going to be. That's the closest we can come to comparisons here, not car oil, because what we are using is basically a consumable. Cars are built to use a certain viscosity of oil, our e-cigs aren't. We can't even agree on a standard name to call the e-cigs/PVs/whatever. You want standard? We can always go back to having nothing but DeKang juice; one brand, one thickness, thin as water in both viscosity and flavor.
And yeah, someone has been pissing in my post toasties for the last couple of years, don't mind me, nothing to see here, move along.
And yeah, someone has been pissing in my post toasties for the last couple of years, don't mind me, nothing to see here, move along.
Don't worry, they'll eventually go away, they always do.
Look, I'll point out the obvious here. Manufacturers probably already have a numerical way of expressing thickness, no way is anyone making juice in any quantity by "feel", it's just not done. What is the issue with sharing that info in a more expressive way? Will sharing viscosity #'s give away trade secrets?
What is the rabid support for non-disclosure all about?
Look at attys and carts, it's all about expressing resistance in a standard format, is anyone being mocked or told "hey ....., they get hot! get a life!", no, quite the opposite actually, people are hunkered down with their voltmeters and other toys openly discussing and making purchase decisions based on those numbers, people demand those numbers. So why is it such a leap to consider a similar numerical scheme, even if it is just ranges about juice thickness?
Maybe I'll pick up one of these ...after all, I'm a vaper, I must tinker...and spend...and spend
Hoppler Viscosimeter
c'mon....I know you want one too
Hoppler Viscosimeter
c'mon....I know you want one too
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Dude,
They make up SMALL batches for you. If they used industry-standard measurements on large vats, and put that on the label, that would be one thing. But the e-juice makers are custom mixing small batches to-order. They don't even know all the possible combinations of ingredients/time/temp to come up with a standard calculation. To ask them to measure viscosity of each 10ml bottle they mix is not realistic, IMO. Automating that would take an industrial robot, auto-label-printer, etc. just to pull it off. Think of the sites that you go to where you put in flavor#1, #2, and #3 and get a custom mix. Other than the %vg, what can they do? This is not a "non-disclosure" issue, but more of a standardization question.
Hell, I'd love it if I could get standard atty ohm rating from these sites!
They make up SMALL batches for you. If they used industry-standard measurements on large vats, and put that on the label, that would be one thing. But the e-juice makers are custom mixing small batches to-order. They don't even know all the possible combinations of ingredients/time/temp to come up with a standard calculation. To ask them to measure viscosity of each 10ml bottle they mix is not realistic, IMO. Automating that would take an industrial robot, auto-label-printer, etc. just to pull it off. Think of the sites that you go to where you put in flavor#1, #2, and #3 and get a custom mix. Other than the %vg, what can they do? This is not a "non-disclosure" issue, but more of a standardization question.
Hell, I'd love it if I could get standard atty ohm rating from these sites!
OK OK, I'm not the 1st to say VG%.....
And I retract my previous statement to you too.....
you get a numerical range with attys, not vague reference points like "hot". The juice guys can definitely get ranges, the 10 ml argument doesn't fly. They are not doing these juices by "feel", it would be trivial to do some control batches.
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OK dude,
I'm all for consistency, as long as it doesn't destroy the vendor's ability to create good juices or kill their business due to expenses. So, OK, let's see if you can get them to agree on an approximate viscosity rating for each juice they sell. Maybe A->Z type of thing, since there's enough numbers already and it would confuse the consumers too much.
Vendor #1 would have an 80/20 RY4 juice with a 'J' viscosity, another vendor would have it at 'K'. So? What does it buy me as a consumer? As long as one 20% VG RY4 isn't a 'Z' when all the others are J-K ish, who cares? But OK, I'm in. I'm just not demanding that they do it. Because I don't really care that much about it. In fact, I don't believe I'm still commenting on this, but I'm bored today!
P.S.
I'm all for consistency, as long as it doesn't destroy the vendor's ability to create good juices or kill their business due to expenses. So, OK, let's see if you can get them to agree on an approximate viscosity rating for each juice they sell. Maybe A->Z type of thing, since there's enough numbers already and it would confuse the consumers too much.
Vendor #1 would have an 80/20 RY4 juice with a 'J' viscosity, another vendor would have it at 'K'. So? What does it buy me as a consumer? As long as one 20% VG RY4 isn't a 'Z' when all the others are J-K ish, who cares? But OK, I'm in. I'm just not demanding that they do it. Because I don't really care that much about it. In fact, I don't believe I'm still commenting on this, but I'm bored today!
P.S.
Some of them probably are....lol. try ww.kitchen-table-e-juice.com
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OK dude,
I'm all for consistency, as long as it doesn't destroy the vendor's ability to create good juices or kill their business due to expenses. So, OK, let's see if you can get them to agree on an approximate viscosity rating for each juice they sell. Maybe A->Z type of thing, since there's enough numbers already and it would confuse the consumers too much.
Vendor #1 would have an 80/20 RY4 juice with a 'J' viscosity, another vendor would have it at 'K'. So? What does it buy me as a consumer? As long as one 20% VG RY4 isn't a 'Z' when all the others are J-K ish, who cares? But OK, I'm in. I'm just not demanding that they do it. Because I don't really care that much about it. In fact, I don't believe I'm still commenting on this, but I'm bored today!
I'm not naive enough to think I can demand anything from anyone. I also respect their freedom to produce any type of product they want with any disclosure they want, however I would spend a lot more with the one who gives me clear cut expectations of how their product will perform based on meaningful specs.
I also don't think any of them have to agree on anything. Let the best marketing/product win.
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Yeah, but, if they don't agree on a scale, we don't have any common ground for communicating. So there has to be an agreement/standard. You could use industry/scientific standards for viscosity. But it has to be a standard, so we all understand it.
I still don't know what it buys me as a consumer, as compared to knowing % vg.
I still don't know what it buys me as a consumer, as compared to knowing % vg.
I guess I should have specified someTHING rather than someone. I've got several autoimmune diseases and had just come back from the doctor after finding out that I probably have another one. They won't be going away... just the joys of living I guess. 
Thanks for understanding though.
I had a more in depth post on this written almost all the way out, and then my laptop decided to crash on me, so I guess this time I'll put it in a nutshell.
Basically, I don't think anyone is resistant to it as much as we just don't see the sense in it. We know that juice is a pretty basic recipe; PG%, VG% flavoring%, and maybe a little distilled water if it's a really high VG%, because the VG is thick. It's like honey when it's cold, syrup at room temp. and cheap syrup when it's warmed.
We taste test for flavors we like anyway, so while we're at it, we decide what percentage of VG we like. Asking a bunch of vendors to get together and compare recipes is like asking Campells, Progresso, and whatever other soup manufacturers that are out there, to get together and compare recipes... not going to happen. As consumers, we taste each of the soups and decide which has the right consistency, flavor, and correct amount of potatoes for us personally. We don't ask them to tell us just how many potatoes they put in a can. With some suppliers we can ask for whatever percentage of VG we like. Great for us, nightmare for any vendor trying to determine viscosity levels. Ask them to standardize everything and suddenly I can't ask for 15% VG because they haven't figured out a viscosity on it. Now all they sell is 10, 20 and 30 because those they've figured out, and they're not going to be the same numbers as Joe Schmoe's, because he ain't sharing his trade secrets. We like the choices, we like the customization, and we understand that vendor A and vendor B aren't going to be telling each other any part of their recipe for dark chocolate ripple berry surprise.
As for numbers on equipment, that's actually a relatively new development. 8 months ago you vaped with one standard atty or carto and you liked it or went back to smoking. They can put a resistance number, or ohm, or mah on them because you can't order from Joye and ask them to produce a 2.89 resistance atty with a battery that runs at 7.1123 volts specifically for you. They have a run of one type, no customization, no special orders. Try to put something in a specific cubby hole and it's got to fit that cubby hole with no variations.
Thanks for understanding though.I had a more in depth post on this written almost all the way out, and then my laptop decided to crash on me, so I guess this time I'll put it in a nutshell.
Basically, I don't think anyone is resistant to it as much as we just don't see the sense in it. We know that juice is a pretty basic recipe; PG%, VG% flavoring%, and maybe a little distilled water if it's a really high VG%, because the VG is thick. It's like honey when it's cold, syrup at room temp. and cheap syrup when it's warmed.
We taste test for flavors we like anyway, so while we're at it, we decide what percentage of VG we like. Asking a bunch of vendors to get together and compare recipes is like asking Campells, Progresso, and whatever other soup manufacturers that are out there, to get together and compare recipes... not going to happen. As consumers, we taste each of the soups and decide which has the right consistency, flavor, and correct amount of potatoes for us personally. We don't ask them to tell us just how many potatoes they put in a can. With some suppliers we can ask for whatever percentage of VG we like. Great for us, nightmare for any vendor trying to determine viscosity levels. Ask them to standardize everything and suddenly I can't ask for 15% VG because they haven't figured out a viscosity on it. Now all they sell is 10, 20 and 30 because those they've figured out, and they're not going to be the same numbers as Joe Schmoe's, because he ain't sharing his trade secrets. We like the choices, we like the customization, and we understand that vendor A and vendor B aren't going to be telling each other any part of their recipe for dark chocolate ripple berry surprise. As for numbers on equipment, that's actually a relatively new development. 8 months ago you vaped with one standard atty or carto and you liked it or went back to smoking. They can put a resistance number, or ohm, or mah on them because you can't order from Joye and ask them to produce a 2.89 resistance atty with a battery that runs at 7.1123 volts specifically for you. They have a run of one type, no customization, no special orders. Try to put something in a specific cubby hole and it's got to fit that cubby hole with no variations.
Aside from the entertainment value of this thread, it seems pretty pointless. Maybe you should take your argument to the Hill. I'm sure you'll be able to fine at least one politician that will back you on this.
I guess I should have specified someTHING rather than someone. I've got several autoimmune diseases and had just come back from the doctor after finding out that I probably have another one. They won't be going away... just the joys of living I guess.
I had a more in depth post on this written almost all the way out, and then my laptop decided to crash on me, so I guess this time I'll put it in a nutshell.
Basically, I don't think anyone is resistant to it as much as we just don't see the sense in it. We know that juice is a pretty basic recipe; PG%, VG% flavoring%, and maybe a little distilled water if it's a really high VG%, because the VG is thick. It's like honey when it's cold, syrup at room temp. and cheap syrup when it's warmed.
As for numbers on equipment, that's actually a relatively new development. 8 months ago you vaped with one standard atty or carto and you liked it or went back to smoking. They can put a resistance number, or ohm, or mah on them because you can't order from Joye and ask them to produce a 2.89 resistance atty with a battery that runs at 7.1123 volts specifically for you. They have a run of one type, no customization, no special orders. Try to put something in a specific cubby hole and it's got to fit that cubby hole with no variations.
different deal, if you are special ordering, you know what you want, what works for you, the viscosity # is irrelevant, you don't need it.
I don't want to play dodge ball here, the thing is most juice descriptions are sorely lacking..things like "great vapor", "good throat hit" are OK but they really don't help that MUCH as that is subjective, as far as PG/VG ratios?..well, I guess that helps a little, a little closer to performance expectation but not quite.
It's really consumer 101. Why anyone would argue for "risky purchases" is beyond me. I mean when was the last time you went shopping for grab bags or mystery items. I know a bit of a stretch but consumers don't like risk, they like trust, consistency.
So 8 months ago attys came in "hot", Henry Ford used to say that you can have your car in any color as long as it is black, would you buy an atty without a known resistance range..accept only black cars? This shouldn't even be being discussed, it's too simple.
BTW, sorry to hear about your issues, I wish you the best and will remain positive that you will get better.
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Man, I don't get it. JK, why do you take this headstrong approach and then "battle it out" to the bitter end?
It makes you sound obsessed when you may actually have a point. This happened in another conversation. Different thread.
Anyway, you like a certain viscosity, then buy some straight nic juice, mix it up to your heart's desire, stick huge viscosity labels on it, sell it and if it works, all those that are criticizing you will applaud your great work and will build you a statue.
I am exaggerating to make a point here.......Besides, contact the supplier ( I use only suppliers that answer their phones) and ask.
While everyone's concerns need to be heard, I think viscosity will probably wind up taking a back seat. There are certain far more important concerns right now.
It makes you sound obsessed when you may actually have a point. This happened in another conversation. Different thread.
Anyway, you like a certain viscosity, then buy some straight nic juice, mix it up to your heart's desire, stick huge viscosity labels on it, sell it and if it works, all those that are criticizing you will applaud your great work and will build you a statue.
I am exaggerating to make a point here.......Besides, contact the supplier ( I use only suppliers that answer their phones) and ask.
While everyone's concerns need to be heard, I think viscosity will probably wind up taking a back seat. There are certain far more important concerns right now.
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