Juice, Viscosity Ratings, Disclosure

[pAth77]

LOL...that's the last thing I am advocating for...don't be silly.

Just trying to lighten up the atmosphere....it was getting pretty intense in here for a while.

To throw in my thoughts, it's gonna be pretty tough for you to sway everyone. Majority of consumers are satisfied with knowing just the PG/VG mix. It's enough for most of us to get a good idea of how the juice will perform. Granted, you may have some validity in your original argument, but the vendors will supply the masses and not conform to the requests of an individual. If it works for the majority, why would they change it for just one (or a small group of people). You definitely have the right to voice your opinion, but the vendors also have the right to run their business as they see fit.

On a side note....only black cars are accepted in my household

 

[JohnKing]

Man, I don't get it. JK, why do you take this headstrong approach and then "battle it out" to the bitter end?
It makes you sound obsessed when you may actually have a point. This happened in another conversation. Different thread.

Anyway, you like a certain viscosity, then buy some straight nic juice, mix it up to your heart's desire, stick huge viscosity labels on it, sell it and if it works, all those that are criticizing you will applaud your great work and will build you a statue.
I am exaggerating to make a point here.......Besides, contact the supplier ( I use only suppliers that answer their phones) and ask.

While everyone's concerns need to be heard, I think viscosity will probably wind up taking a back seat. There are certain far more important concerns right now.

If you don't like my style or the way I approach a topic, that's OK. I'm sure you are not alone.

We'll see about the rest of your thoughts, I think small changes like labeling are going to come much faster than "break-throughs". Too much invested in the status quo..

Everyone needs an edge..

 

[JohnKing]

Just trying to lighten up the atmosphere....it was getting pretty intense in here for a while.

To throw in my thoughts, it's gonna be pretty tough for you to sway everyone. Majority of consumers are satisfied with knowing just the PG/VG mix. It's enough for most of us to get a good idea of how the juice will perform. Granted, you may have some validity in your original argument, but the vendors will supply the masses and not conform to the requests of an individual. If it works for the majority, why would they change it for just one (or a small group of people). You definitely have the right to voice your opinion, but the vendors also have the right to run their business as they see fit.

On a side note....only black cars are accepted in my household

And I like my attys hot!

 

[StormFinch]

different deal, if you are special ordering, you know what you want, what works for you, the viscosity # is irrelevant, you don't need it.

Exactly what I was saying. Those of us that have been arguing that we don't need it... don't need it.

I don't want to play dodge ball here, the thing is most juice descriptions are sorely lacking..things like "great vapor", "good throat hit" are OK but they really don't help that MUCH as that is subjective, as far as PG/VG ratios?..well, I guess that helps a little, a little closer to performance expectation but not quite.

It's really consumer 101. Why anyone would argue for "risky purchases" is beyond me. I mean when was the last time you went shopping for grab bags or mystery items. I know a bit of a stretch but consumers don't like risk, they like trust, consistency.

I hate to keep using this analogy but it works. I buy soup all the time, like to try out the different flavors. I have no idea if what I'm getting is going to be thick or thin, loaded with potatoes or actually have a little meat in it. It's life, as long as I can be reasonably assured that what is in it ain't gonna kill me, I'm good. Truthfully, even that isn't a constant though, because I smoked cigarettes for almost 20 years without giving a rodent's backside what was in them, and the only thing they were consistently was unhealthy.

So 8 months ago attys came in "hot", Henry Ford used to say that you can have your car in any color as long as it is black, would you buy an atty without a known resistance range..accept only black cars? This shouldn't even be being discussed, it's too simple.

Actually, it was somewhere around "medium", and I did buy them, well, cartos at the time anyway. Had no idea what the resistance on them were, didn't care. They weren't cigarettes... and this is where our grandparents or parents would fill in "and we were happy to have them!" Currently I use standard attys, same thing they always were as far as I know. They keep me vaping and don't kill my batteries, that's where I appreciate the innovation, 280 mah to 1300 in less than a year. If it was still 280 though? Not a biggie, would just need more batts!

Now, I've made the point I wanted to, doubt I can add anything more constructive to the conversation, and mostly I'm TIRED. So, I'm going to take my toys and go home for dinner. Have fun.

BTW, sorry to hear about your issues, I wish you the best and will remain positive that you will get better.

Thanks for the well wishes btw, means a lot.

 

[ShannonS]

OK OK, I'm not the 1st to say VG%.....

And I retract my previous statement to you too.....

Yeah but you answered so that someone who really was concerned about coming up with a number to represent the thickness of juice could do so. Major props.

LOL I don't take anything on a message board personally. It made me look back and consider that I was perhaps being unfair... and then I said.. NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

 

[throatkick]

If you don't like my style or the way I approach a topic, that's OK. I'm sure you are not alone.

We'll see about the rest of your thoughts, I think small changes like labeling are going to come much faster than "break-throughs". Too much invested in the status quo..

Everyone needs an edge..

Just lets say you did some initial market research to check for feedback

As for labeling, I think there will be changes as well. Viscosity I am not certain of, but contents etc. seems unavoidable and probably even a good thing in the long run.

Proof positive we can discuss things without getting argumentative.

 

[mdocod]

I understand the premise, but the comparison to motor oil is funny... Especially when you find out how BROAD those ratings actually are. Those numbers on a bottle of oil are not specifics, they define a range, and the ranges do not have gaps between them. A 30 weight butts right up against the top of a 20 weight and the bottom of a 40 weight and the range of possible viscosity is actually fairly wide for each rating. The difference between the viscosity cold and at operating temp is a several thousand fold.

I'm a total newb to vaping and I can say the following with confidence:

Thick straight VG vapes fine, even out in the cold (even thicker!).
Thin straight PG vapes fine, even in a warm room (even thinner!).
Either will leak all over the place if you overfill it.

Perhaps you should be looking for a device that is less picky about viscosity. I think you'd be interested to know, that most vehicle engines will in fact live a long and healthy life on almost any viscosity of motor oil sold under most circumstances.

Eric

 

[grandmato5]

Never bought a juice that I thought I'd wasted my money on because it was too thick, too thin, didnt wick well, wicked too well. Sure my all vg juice is on the thicker side and my BWB 80pg/20vg is on the thinner side but I knew that would be the case before I purchased them and they still all perform perfectly ok for me on the 510 attys/cartos I choose to use on all my PV's. I have no need for viscosity rating on my juice bottles.

Never felt I was gambling when I reordered juice I've ordered previously. I have no problem understanding and accepting that juice orders that are mixed to order will have variences in them from time to time. I've never recieved a reorder yet that wasn't consistent to the previous order.

Always feel like I'm gambling when I try a new juice, but that's based upon flavor never upon viscosity.

 

[JohnKing]

I understand the premise, but the comparison to motor oil is funny... Especially when you find out how BROAD those ratings actually are. Those numbers on a bottle of oil are not specifics, they define a range, and the ranges do not have gaps between them. A 30 weight butts right up against the top of a 20 weight and the bottom of a 40 weight and the range of possible viscosity is actually fairly wide for each rating. The difference between the viscosity cold and at operating temp is a several thousand fold.

I'm a total newb to vaping and I can say the following with confidence:

Thick straight VG vapes fine, even out in the cold (even thicker!).
Thin straight PG vapes fine, even in a warm room (even thinner!).
Either will leak all over the place if you overfill it.

Perhaps you should be looking for a device that is less picky about viscosity. I think you'd be interested to know, that most vehicle engines will in fact live a long and healthy life on almost any viscosity of motor oil sold under most circumstances.

Eric

Actually I entertained the analogies to motor oil, spaghetti sauce, soup and a few other things more out of a sense of civility. The best thing I ever heard about analogies is; "they only work for the one using them".

We are talking about e-juice. Take the time (like I have) to read several hundred posts about leaking, cart mods, wicking, etc.., go buy fluval, stick a straw in your atty or any other of the numerous solutions that are bandied about and then think about the one element of the equation that no one has a handle on: viscosity.

I am seeing a solution to a problem, not an argument.

It would be very easy for a consumer focused juice vendor to rate and recommend his juices based on viscosity/device.

Here is an example that would give me great confidence to spend money.

"This juice is rated a 4 on our thickness scale, it should perform well in the following devices..."

Even if it doesn't work out, I know I can go back to that vendor with a baseline performance in my head and confidently buy a 3 or a 5 and get my needs met. Or if noob I can buy a 4 and 5 and dial into my gear without spending or tinkering or running out for the fluval and the PG and the straws and well, everything else that has been suggested and doesn't work because no one is on the same page with viscosity.


It's all quite simple. What's with the hub-bub?

I'm done. As another poster mentioned, maybe I'm wearing this out a bit.

good luck with your cart mods!

 

[StormFinch]

Actually I entertained the analogies to motor oil, spaghetti sauce, soup and a few other things more out of a sense of civility. The best thing I ever heard about analogies is; "they only work for the one using them".

We are talking about e-juice. Take the time (like I have) to read several hundred posts about leaking, cart mods, wicking, etc.., go buy fluval, stick a straw in your atty or any other of the numerous solutions that are bandied about and then think about the one element of the equation that no one has a handle on: viscosity.

I am seeing a solution to a problem, not an argument.

It would be very easy for a consumer focused juice vendor to rate and recommend his juices based on viscosity/device.

Here is an example that would give me great confidence to spend money.

"This juice is rated a 4 on our thickness scale, it should perform well in the following devices..."

Even if it doesn't work out, I know I can go back to that vendor with a baseline performance in my head and confidently buy a 3 or a 5 and get my needs met. Or if noob I can buy a 4 and 5 and dial into my gear without spending or tinkering or running out for the fluval and the PG and the straws and well, everything else that has been suggested and doesn't work because no one is on the same page with viscosity.


It's all quite simple. What's with the hub-bub?

I'm done. As another poster mentioned, maybe I'm wearing this out a bit.

good luck with your cart mods!

No, no no John. You can't bring up what I highlighted in red above and then take your toys and go home.

What you see as an problem with juices, I see as an inherent design flaw with carts. I was all over these boards for a couple of weeks before I ever placed my first order. I too saw all the mentions of modding carts, leaky carts, etc. etc. so my first order was for the kr8 system and cartos. As a newb I wasn't willing to mess around with something that you have to change around to get to work, or leaks. Unless you overfill them cartos don't leak, and you don't have to mod them to get them to wick. Granted, their flavor and vapor production aren't quite as good as an atty cart combo, and there are other minor flaws to my eyes, but I was willing to exchange that for simplicity at the time.

If you think about the design of carts and attys though, does anything about the way they are supposed to work make sense? You have a tube holding an absorbent medium that's not supposed to leak fluid when turned on it's side, and that absorbent medium is meant to work as a wicking material that isn't supposed to touch it's heat source, yet still allow the vaporization of the liquid that fills it. Kinda wonky if you ask me.

 

[mdocod]

Yes, try cartomizers instead. Atty/cart combos are, in my early experience, in need of a lot of work by the manufactures to be acceptable. I should have mentioned, that the very reasonable results I get across all possible viscosity ranges is when using cartomizers instead of the atty/cart. I've found that the atty/cart always gives me burnt plastic hits after a few quick draws no matter how thin the fluid, it simply does not wick fast enough. The solution then of course would be to use less tight wadding, which then throws the user on a repeating viscous cycle of trying to match wadding to fluid viscosity. Cartomizers solve this problem by having a combination of both a relatively high wadding density, which does not tend to allow fluid to drain out, while simultaneously having a very large surface area for wicking to deal with thicker fluids that wick more slowly. It's a fabulous design that solves your viscosity problem... Oh... and in my experience, since the atty is so unpredictable, the cartomizer delivers a better average flavor. One hit of fried polyfill takes the atty's taste score down quite a few notches.

Eric

 

[ScottinSoCal]

you set a rating based on a certain temp, room temperature will probably work for most of the people who have rooms.

I deal with standards all day, every day, and it just ain't that easy.

I work in an industry where precision is required, and there are standards for everything. Soldering, assembly, testing, certifying, reworking, repairing, even placing the order to buy parts - you name it, there's a standard that covers it. But each of those standards represents thousands of hours of time to develop, and it costs my company millions of dollars a year to comply with those standards. You gonna pay for that when you buy your juice?

What's "room temperature"? Is that 68F? 75F? 23C? Each of those will provide slightly different viscosity readings. How do you measure the temperature when you run the test? Use the control on the wall? They can be off by as much as 5F, and that's for good quality ones. Do you know what it costs to get a calibrated thermometer? I paid $700 for one a few weeks ago. Do you know what it costs to get that thermometer verified and certified each year? I pay about $150 a year for it. If your room temperature isn't exact (there's a few hundred thousand added to the cost - a climate control and air handling system that will maintain air temperature to within +/- .5C) the test results are invalid.

OK, now you've got the room, let's look at the juice. How long does it sit in the room before the temperature has stabilized? In what amount? Because more juice will take longer. In what size and shape container? Because a tall, skinny container will stabilize differently than a short, fat container. How do you handle it when you're testing? Because picking the container up with your hands will result in your body heat warming the juice to above room temperature and invalidate the results. There's another few thousand - a dispensing system to pour the juice for testing.

Standards don't just magically appear, and they aren't a simple plug & play operation for compliance. Look at sound system amplifiers - they have a standard. Max power output and RMS output. But two different manufacturers building identical amplifiers can (and do) rate them differently because of small changes in the test methodology. It's just not that simple.

 

[emus]

2 cents FWIW.

I added hydrometer balls to known good juice.

Adjust all my juices to have the same number of floaters.

Gives me the right viscosity/density every time.