Kidney Pain unbearable

[Cm7b5]

I joined this group on May 26, 2012, less than 3 weeks ago. About the same amount of time I've been vaping.

Unfortunately the Kidney pain caused by vaping is too much to bear and no amount of drinking fluids will alleviate the pain. I'm a long time sufferer of Kidney stones. Not the wussy little ones measured in millimetres, oh no sir, not for me. My last major stone was removed in Jan 2011 and it measured 2.5 CENTIMETERS x 1.5 CENTIMETERS!!! Try passing that sucker!!

Anyways the first time i noticed the correlation between vaping and kidney pain was shortly after I started. I had a music gig and vaped away during the breaks. This was with a standard eGO C which does not produce much vaper compared to the eGO twists i just got. The next day i was doubled over with kidney pain which took a week to go away. Didn't vape after that night.

In the meantime I did some more research and found that vaping is NOT recommended for people with previous kidney problems. It feels like I've sparred 15 rounds with Manny Pacquio. When the pain finally subsided to a bearable point, (it still hasn't completely gone away) I did some test vapes and the pain was immediate. No doubt in my mind that the PG/VG base is pummelling my kidneys. The pain is worse if I use the EGO Twist, probably because it's so good at producing copious amounts of vapour.

I know that PG is safe to eat, smear on your skin, etc. But, for me, inhaling it is killer. I must be part cat because it seems to have the same effect on me that cats have when they lick antifreeze and it causes renal (kidney) failure in them.

After spending $300+ and perusing this forum every spare minute, I've become quite enamoured with the whole Vaping scene. The measuring of the ejuice components takes me back to my days as a photographer, mixing chemicals for printing. My office has a very pleasant coffee/chocolate/licorice smell that is mmm, mmm, good. I hadn't touched a regcig since i started. Didn't have the slightest urge. I love the fact that I'm not paying excessive taxes on this stuff the way i did when i smoked cigs. The rebel in me would almost prefer that the government outlaw it rather than tax it so I can store huge quantities of juice in my basement and give the middle finger to the government. The forum's members are interesting and varied and even include Women!! Many of my other online interests are typically male only.

Anyways, unless someone comes up with a non PG/VG base, I'm done. Such a shame, because compared to some of my other vices/hobbies this one wasn't too expensive. I fully planned on augmenting my eGo system with a Provari and several Super T Precise Plus models. I'm just glad I didn't buy them before I found out about the kidney pain.

If you want to buy my Twist(s) and other gear check out the Classified section.


I'm a little envious of all you fellow vapers who can continue with this cutting-edge hobby/addiction. I love all the improvements in technology and there's nothing as sexy in the traditional smoking world as a Super T PP 18500.

Keep vaping my friends. Enjoy it for me when you're doing the black liquorice.

 

[Spazmelda]

That is strange. Sorry to hear about your problems. Have you looked into PEG (polyethylene glycol) based juices? That's the only alternative to PG/VG that I've ever heard of, and I don't know anything about it other than just read in passing.

 

[bnrkwest]

Can you handle pure VG? You could try pure VG as an experiment, add no flavors to it and thin with distilled water if it is too thick. I know some have allergies to PG, and they vape VG no problems. bnrk

 

[Cm7b5]

Can you handle pure VG? You could try pure VG as an experiment, add no flavors to it and thin with distilled water if it is too thick. I know some have allergies to PG, and they vape VG no problems. bnrk

I did try several experiments with ratios of PG to VG with and without Nicotine.

Nothing worked. Even 100% VG mixed 80% VG to 20% Distilled water with no nicotine had the same immediate effect.

I would make sure before I vaped that I had consumed at least 10 oz of water immediately before vaping so that i was hydrated and still the same immediate result, kidney pain. The pain increases the more I vape.

Thanks for the suggestions. I hope my weak kidneys are not giving me "canary in a coal mine" status. IOW i hope that everyone is not damaging their kidneys and I notice it more because of my pre-condition.

 

[bhima]

I've never had Kidney stones before, so I have no predisposition to what you are experiencing. That having been said, I did notice I started getting pain in my left kidney... would come here and there. I figured it was vaping, but I didn't want to give it up just yet so I decided to start eating better and exercising. I lost 15 lbs months ago, never stopped vaping and I've never had the kidney pain come back since. Of course, your mileage may vary since I'm not prone to stones to begin with.

 

[Cm7b5]

I've never had Kidney stones before, so I have no predisposition to what you are experiencing. That having been said, I did notice I started getting pain in my left kidney... would come here and there. I figured it was vaping, but I didn't want to give it up just yet so I decided to start eating better and exercising. I lost 15 lbs months ago, never stopped vaping and I've never had the kidney pain come back since. Of course, your mileage may vary since I'm not prone to stones to begin with.

bhima:

Glad to hear about the weight loss and kidney pain subsiding.

I'm very disappointed in my situation but there's not much I can do. I tried various combinations of PG to VG, VG 100%, VG 50% with Distilled water and nothing worked.

If i don't vape for a couple of days the pain goes away but never 100% and definitely comes back immediately if i vape.

I can tolerate it the more i get used to it, but if your body's trying to tell you something you should pay attention.

I've gone back to approx 5 cigs a day and want to get that under control again quickly.

My wife wasn't crazy about the vaping, but she preferred it to my getting back on the analogs.

I like the whole vaping/process/subculture thing enough that i'd probably vape 10w30 if it didn't affect my kidneys.

What do i do with my hands now?

once again congrats on the weight loss and keep vaping you lucky vaper.

 

[WinNuke95]

Something that really infuriates me is how people are so quick to associate one single action as the cause for a complicated ailment.

I don't say this because I'm biased, but rather annoyed at the complete lack of critical thinking some people have. There are so many different variables here that figuring out people's symptoms on a FORUM by people unqualified to do so is the most ......ed concept imaginable. Plus, it's AMAZING that people think it's so black and white. As if the following have nothing to do with it:

Diet
Exercise frequency
Genetics
Alcohol Consumption

Our water has fluoride, our food has hormones, our bodies are pumped full of pharmaceuticals
and people are sitting here saying "...., it's gotta be vape."

Even if you do everything right and go the healthy route, you're still going to eventually encounter a few different forms of health issues--regardless of what you THINK it's attributed to.

That being said, I'm not ruling out the possibility that vaping may be a contributing factor, but jesus what isn't?!

I wish I had started vaping early in my childhood, then I could blame the need for braces on vaping.

 

[Uncle Willie]

What do your medical tests indicate .. ??

 

[WinNuke95]

What causes kidney stones?

Doctors do not always know what causes a stone to form. While certain foods may promote stone formation in people who are susceptible, scientists do not believe that eating any specific food causes stones to form in people who are not susceptible.

A person with a family history of kidney stones may be more likely to develop stones. Urinary tract infections, kidney disorders such as cystic kidney diseases, and certain metabolic disorders such as hyperparathyroidism are also linked to stone formation.

In addition, more than 70 percent of people with a rare hereditary disease called renal tubular acidosis develop kidney stones.

What are the symptoms of kidney stones?

Kidney stones often do not cause any symptoms. Usually, the first symptom of a kidney stone is extreme pain, which begins suddenly when a stone moves in the urinary tract and blocks the flow of urine. Typically, a person feels a sharp, cramping pain in the back and side in the area of the kidney or in the lower abdomen. Sometimes nausea and vomiting occur. Later, pain may spread to the groin.

If the stone is too large to pass easily, pain continues as the muscles in the wall of the narrow ureter try to squeeze the stone into the bladder. As the stone moves and the body tries to push it out, blood may appear in the urine, making the urine pink. As the stone moves down the ureter, closer to the bladder, a person may feel the need to urinate more often or feel a burning sensation during urination.

If fever and chills accompany any of these symptoms, an infection may be present. In this case, a person should contact a doctor immediately.

Preventing Kidney Stones

A person who has had more than one kidney stone may be likely to form another; so, if possible, prevention is important. To help determine their cause, the doctor will order laboratory tests, including urine and blood tests. The doctor will also ask about the patient's medical history, occupation, and eating habits. If a stone has been removed, or if the patient has passed a stone and saved it, a stone analysis by the laboratory may help the doctor in planning treatment.

The doctor may ask the patient to collect urine for 24 hours after a stone has passed or been removed. For a 24-hour urine collection, the patient is given a large container, which is to be refrigerated between trips to the bathroom. The collection is used to measure urine volume and levels of acidity, calcium, sodium, uric acid, oxalate, citrate, and creatinine-a product of muscle metabolism. The doctor will use this information to determine the cause of the stone. A second 24-hour urine collection may be needed to determine whether the prescribed treatment is working.

Foods and Drinks Containing Oxalate

People prone to forming calcium oxalate stones may be asked by their doctor to limit or avoid certain foods if their urine contains an excess of oxalate.

High-oxalate foods-higher to lower

rhubarb
spinach
beets
swiss chard
wheat germ
soybean crackers
peanuts
okra
chocolate
black Indian tea
sweet potatoes

Foods that have medium amounts of oxalate may be eaten in limited amounts.

Medium-oxalate foods-higher to lower

grits
grapes
celery
green pepper
red raspberries
fruit cake
strawberries
marmalade
liver

Source: Kidney Stones in Adults - National Kidney and Urologic Diseases Information Clearinghouse

Sounds to me like you're susceptible to chronic kidney pain and stones. The diet you eat should be called into question, not just vaping. Since you performed some mock experiments, perhaps we can SPECULATE that for people with pre-existing kidney conditions, vaping may agitates a current problem--but we cannot conclude any of this.

I understand your desire to remove all potential suspects, and I am actually sorry and sympathetic to your situation. But it would appear you need to go to the DR., not stop vaping

 

[Cm7b5]

Sounds to me like you're susceptible to chronic kidney pain and stones. The diet you eat should be called into question, not just vaping. Since you performed some mock experiments, perhaps we can SPECULATE that for people with pre-existing kidney conditions, vaping may agitates a current problem--but we cannot conclude any of this.

I understand your desire to remove all potential suspects, and I am actually sorry and sympathetic to your situation. But it would appear you need to go to the DR., not stop vaping

Win:

After lithotripsy and surgery for kidney stones, I am well aware of the current medical research into kidney stones. After my last surgery in jan 2011 I've adhered to the recommended diet pretty religiously. (thanks for posting the medical info) There's nothing like excruciating pain and having catheters where you don't want them and drainage bags attached to your kidneys, to focus your attention. I've also tracked my fluid intake on an ongoing basis for over a year.

My last kidney- related doctor's appt was in April 2012, shortly before I began vaping. He commended me on my diet and fluid intake. Vaping was the only change in my lifestyle that I can attribute the kidney pain to. If it wasn't the cause of the new pain, it certainly seemed to exacerbate it. I haven't vaped in over three weeks and the pain has subsided to acceptable levels.

Perhaps the answer is in the very first paragraph of your medical reference quote. Paraphrasing "scientists do not believe that certain foodS causes stones to form in people who are not susceptible"? Different people react to different foods in different ways, why not vaping?

Your earlier post seemed a little overly judgmental and not very coherent.

"I don't say this because I'm biased, but rather annoyed at the complete lack of critical thinking some people have. There are so many different variables here that figuring out people's symptoms on a FORUM by people unqualified to do so is the most ......ed concept imaginable."

Sorry, if you don't think I know my body and are qualiied to comment on it as related to kidney stones, after several major episodes over a 15 year period, you should re-read my first paragraph.

"That being said, I'm not ruling out the possibility that vaping may be a contributing factor, but jesus what isn't?
I wish I had started vaping early in my childhood, then I could blame the need for braces on vaping."

Not very critical thinking on your part and pretty flippant! Sort of like telling a diabetic that all the chocolate and canies may be contributing to his diabetic comas, but Jesus what doesn't.

Vaping is a great alternative to smoking FOR MOST PEOPLE, just as spinach, soybeans and peanuts are healthy foods FOR MOST PEOPLE. For me they help produce kidney stones. My loss not yours.

Keep vaping Win. I hope it allows you to stay off the smokes!

 

[Kurt]

CM7b5, thanks for letting us know exactly how serious your kidney problems are. As far as I know, there have been no negative renal issues with respect to vaping reported here. But then, I don't think we have had many people with the level of problems you have had. I don't know if this info will help, but I'll just throw this out:

The metabolite of PG is lactic acid. I do not know if any lactates can precipitate like oxalates can.

But then you said VG causes this too. Its metabolite is glucose...again, I don't think that is the issue.

Perhaps the juices you are vaping have either too much or a particular flavor compound that is hard for your kidneys to deal with. Have you tried unflavored VG juice? Flavors are the big unknown in vaping, since there are SO MANY flavor compounds even in one "flavoring", and some do cause various problems, some severe. Many here, me included, vape either only unflavored liquids or minimally flavored, for this reason.

There does seem to be the possibility of a strain on kidneys from using a nicotine patch, due to the kidneys having to work overtime to rid the system of nicotine. Here is the link with the statement, but it is not very detailed:

Nicotine patches and vaping ?

Perhaps your poor kidneys, as cranky as they seem to be, simply cannot handle the nicotine well. Do nic lozenges or the patch do the same thing as vaping nic? I happen to like the nic lozenges occasionally if vaping is not possible. Might be a good experiment. Of course I could suggest trying 0 nic juice, but then there is the withdrawals, and who wants that?

We do have a doctor's private forum here. Hope one is a renal specialist and takes notice, since non-medical people cannot use it.

Best of luck! I genuinely feel for you. this is a tough one to live with, and a tough one to solve.

 

[Cm7b5]

Kurt

Thank you for the thought provoking info.

I never did try unflavored juice. I,d like to give it a try. During my short, 3week vaping career, I did try Green Apple 16mg 80pg/20vg premixed, and then various combinations of caramel, coffee, licorice, orange,strawberry, all DIY in various ratios of PG to VG. All nic levels were either 6mg or 12mg.

I was never sure if particular flavours were more or less responsible for my kidney pain because I was using several flavours every day. The commercially mixed green apple didn't seem to hurt as much as the DIY mixes.

The extra vapor produced by the ego twist produced more pain than the regular ego.

I did a short experiment with no nic but still felt pain.

I tried patches to quit in the past, but found them too strong, even when I cut them in half.

I used nic gum to quit and stayed off cigs for four years. I started having the odd smoke once a week and realized I was getting the habit again. One of my friends started vaping cigarette style ecigs and the concept appealed to me. i quickly realized that that was an expensive way to vape. That's when I found ECF.

Unfortunately my short experiment with vaping has left me re-addicted to nic. I,m smoking about 7 cigs a day and trying to hide it from friends and neighbors. Fortunately, my wife seems to be completely over smoking.

Once again, thanks for your concern and direction.

 

[Kurt]

Well the good news is that your experiments have ruled out nicotine as the culprit. And tobacco itself, which means that if unflavored juice still causes problems, another alternative is Swedish snus. Please let us know how the flavor experiment goes. this would be very interesting to me, and probably many other science people here.

Best of luck!

 

[Piya]

Im not a doctor and dont claim to be, but just as another kidney patient, wanted to let you know that vaping for me has NO bearing on my kidneys at all. I have kidney pain and other kidney symptoms (sediment etc) have been hospitalized with it many times...and vaping has in no way shape or form changed or made worse the pain or other symptoms. I also have Raynauds and celiac. Im not really sure how vapour can even get to your kidneys unless you have some sort of allergy to something in the liquid, but I dont think that it can contribute to stone production. My brother has horrible huge stones, and he is just prone to them, he gets them no matter what he does, sounds like maybe you are the same? Perhaps the pain comes coincidently with the vaping? I dunno Im not a doctor, but I am a kidney patient and vaping has in no way shape or form changed that for better or worse...my doc encourages it. Just sayin.... Maybe some allergy testing is in order?

 

[Cinnamonkey]

Just my

Kidney problems and pain can be aggravated by dehydration. A dehydrated body is a cranky body and the kidneys, ureter, bladder, and all the in betweens will rattle the cages when your body is crying out for some fluids, especially if you are prone to UTI's, stones, and the like. Even people who aren't prone to this know that when you vape, you hydrate. I would think that this would apply even more for those of us that are frequent flyers of kidney/bladder hell. I wonder how much actual fluids this gentleman was taking in when he was vaping.

Just a thought....

 

[~Sue~Feb2012]

May I ask which research indicated that vaping is NOT recommended for people with previous kidney problems? I'd like to read up. Do you have links you could post? Thanks!

 

[~Sue~Feb2012]

hmmm since Cm7b5 has not responded, I'm wondering if anyone else knows what research that people with kidney problems shouldn't vape (or however they stated it) I got the impression that CM7b5 had some kind of documented evidence? I had never heard of anyone vaping getting kidney pain, so would just like to read more about it.

 

[JuanC]

I think he was refering to this here.

 

[~Sue~Feb2012]

I think he was refering to this here.

Thanks JuanC . I read that thread. Didn't see any documented evidence that using ecigs causes kidney pain or problems.

 

[Cm7b5]

Sorry I haven't been on the forum much lately.