Lets flood facebook enemies of ecigs

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woden57

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I would like for everyone who has used ecigs to quit smoking to make it known. Help save our lifesaving alternative.

Here are links to 2 misinformed do-gooders who could use a little education.

http://www.facebook.com/lungusa
https://www.facebook.com/ASHglobalAction

This might make a difference.

They are killing us, surely that is not their intention. They just need the facts presented in their face(book)
 

DrMA

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Those people aren't interested in the truth. They have their own little agenda in their own little minds and will do anything to secure their next grant or donation. These kinds of little "academic" worlds have small scope, small goals, and smaller stakes, thus the politics are vicious. Anything you do say will only serve to feed the trolls.
 

rolygate

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They are funded by the pharmaceutical industry, who determine the agenda followed by those orgs.

Pharma needs to protect the $100 billion annual market for drug treatments for sick smokers, and will do so at any cost. Smokers who switch to Snus or e-cigarettes drop out of their income channels [1], which will conceivably take a 50% or even 60% hit eventually, if all THR products are unrestricted.

Pharma's agenda is to have those products banned, or if that is not possible, restricted by regulations in order to reduce sales as far as is achievable (the ideal situation being near-zero sales).

If 50% of smokers switch to those products, then more than 49% of those smokers are removed from the pharma income channels. That is unacceptable to them, and they have almost unlimited funds to address the problem. Where you see a government employee or a pseudo-health organisation working against THR, you are looking at somewhere the problem was 'addressed'.


[1] There are multiple channels that add up to vast sums of money and effectively mean that smokers are one of pharma's main income sources. For example it can be easily demonstrated that in the UK, pharma earns the same as (or perhaps more than) the tobacco industry does from smoking. Such channels include:

a. The treatment drugs for sick and dying smokers, paid for through State hospitals and channels.
b. The treatment drugs for sick and dying smokers, paid for through private hospitals and insurance.
c. The private hospital trade itself, which is partly owned by pharma.
d. Other treatments for sick smokers, for example private treatments and therapies.
e. The OTC meds market for smokers' personal needs.
f. The boost to all drug sales caused by smokers needing treatments they would not otherwise need.
g. The boost to all drug sales caused by smokers needing more treatments for the usual medical conditions, made worse by smoking.
h. The NRT and psychoactive drug sales for smoking cessation. Although this is a ~$3bn global market, it is almost certainly the smallest in this list.
i. Medical insurance: does this have any feed into pharma? Everything else does, so perhaps there are income sources here too.
 

budynbuick

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They are funded by the pharmaceutical industry, who determine the agenda followed by those orgs.

Pharma needs to protect the $100 billion annual market for drug treatments for sick smokers, and will do so at any cost. Smokers who switch to Snus or e-cigarettes drop out of their income channels [1], which will conceivably take a 50% or even 60% hit eventually, if all THR products are unrestricted.

Pharma's agenda is to have those products banned, or if that is not possible, restricted by regulations in order to reduce sales as far as is achievable (the ideal situation being near-zero sales).

If 50% of smokers switch to those products, then more than 49% of those smokers are removed from the pharma income channels. That is unacceptable to them, and they have almost unlimited funds to address the problem. Where you see a government employee or a pseudo-health organisation working against THR, you are looking at somewhere the problem was 'addressed'.


[1] There are multiple channels that add up to vast sums of money and effectively mean that smokers are one of pharma's main income sources. For example it can be easily demonstrated that in the UK, pharma earns the same as (or perhaps more than) the tobacco industry does from smoking. Such channels include:

a. The treatment drugs for sick and dying smokers, paid for through State hospitals and channels.
b. The treatment drugs for sick and dying smokers, paid for through private hospitals and insurance.
c. The private hospital trade itself, which is partly owned by pharma.
d. Other treatments for sick smokers, for example private treatments and therapies.
e. The OTC meds market for smokers' personal needs.
f. The boost to all drug sales caused by smokers needing treatments they would not otherwise need.
g. The boost to all drug sales caused by smokers needing more treatments for the usual medical conditions, made worse by smoking.
h. The NRT and psychoactive drug sales for smoking cessation. Although this is a ~$3bn global market, it is almost certainly the smallest in this list.
i. Medical insurance: does this have any feed into pharma? Everything else does, so perhaps there are income sources here too.

I thought for a minute I was reading something I had written. Then it dawned on me I can't write that well LOL. Very well said!
 

Petrodus

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They are funded by the pharmaceutical industry, who determine the agenda followed by those orgs.

Pharma needs to protect the $100 billion annual market for drug treatments for sick smokers, and will do so at any cost. Smokers who switch to Snus or e-cigarettes drop out of their income channels [1], which will conceivably take a 50% or even 60% hit eventually, if all THR products are unrestricted.

Pharma's agenda is to have those products banned, or if that is not possible, restricted by regulations in order to reduce sales as far as is achievable (the ideal situation being near-zero sales).

If 50% of smokers switch to those products, then more than 49% of those smokers are removed from the pharma income channels. That is unacceptable to them, and they have almost unlimited funds to address the problem. Where you see a government employee or a pseudo-health organisation working against THR, you are looking at somewhere the problem was 'addressed'.


[1] There are multiple channels that add up to vast sums of money and effectively mean that smokers are one of pharma's main income sources. For example it can be easily demonstrated that in the UK, pharma earns the same as (or perhaps more than) the tobacco industry does from smoking. Such channels include:

a. The treatment drugs for sick and dying smokers, paid for through State hospitals and channels.
b. The treatment drugs for sick and dying smokers, paid for through private hospitals and insurance.
c. The private hospital trade itself, which is partly owned by pharma.
d. Other treatments for sick smokers, for example private treatments and therapies.
e. The OTC meds market for smokers' personal needs.
f. The boost to all drug sales caused by smokers needing treatments they would not otherwise need.
g. The boost to all drug sales caused by smokers needing more treatments for the usual medical conditions, made worse by smoking.
h. The NRT and psychoactive drug sales for smoking cessation. Although this is a ~$3bn global market, it is almost certainly the smallest in this list.
i. Medical insurance: does this have any feed into pharma? Everything else does, so perhaps there are income sources here too.
Soooo ...
If the rumor is true about the FDA being owned by BP,
we can assume certain things that might be in the upcoming Deeming Regulations.
:glare:
 

rolygate

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The issue is not so much current vapers, who will most likely be able to get supplies one way or another (though at either increased cost or trouble, or both) - but more the current smokers who will not get a chance to switch.

We have about 6% of smokers, that leaves about another 45% to 55% who would switch given the opportunity. As 45% of smokers in Sweden switched to Snus (smoking prevalence is about 11% there now and still falling), and ecigs are more popular with smokers than Snus, it is reasonable to guess that 50% or even 60% of smokers might eventually switch to ecigs, if allowed to, and if given the truth about the options.

So pharma's main thrust will be to slow down or stop the move to ecigs that will eventually hit one of their biggest income channels by 50% or more. Most vapers are removed from pharma's various smoker-related markets (and those who remain are there due to previous smoking), so that if the THR process is allowed to continue the income loss would build to at least $60bn a year eventually.

Most industries would hurt a bit if you take $60bn off their gross. Pharma passes that pain on to the FDA, their very good pals.
 

DC2

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Yeah, we're facing two of the most powerful lobby's in this country: BP and BT. With their combined efforts, I'm surprised vaping hasn't been banned yet.
Electronic cigarettes were on the verge of being banned a few years ago.
Thankfully the judicial branch did it's job and Judge Leon ruled against the FDA.
 
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DrMA

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Electronic cigarettes were on the verge of being banned a few years ago.
Thankfully the legislative branch did it's job and Judge Leon ruled against the FDA.

I'm familiar with the 2008-2009 effort of the FDA to ban/regulate ecigs as medical devices. However, they had to be sued to reverse that decision, it did not come from the legislature. Smoking Everywhere filed that winning lawsuit.
FDA Sued Over Electronic Cigarette Embargo - The BLT: The Blog of Legal Times
 

cyberwolf

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The issue is not so much current vapers, who will most likely be able to get supplies one way or another (though at either increased cost or trouble, or both) - but more the current smokers who will not get a chance to switch.

That's exactly the way I see it. It would be nearly impossible for the FDA to have batteries, kanthol wire, flavorings and even nicotine removed from the market. Eliminating advertising and taking ecigs off store shelves would be comparatively easy. That would drastically reduce smokers' exposure to the benefits of the electronic cigarette and would also relegate the the technology to an underground market. We vapers wouldn't suffer that much, but far fewer people would be picking up an ecig to try out.

One of the most hopeful events of the past year in my opinion has been big tobacco's entry into the market. It's not necessarily the industry that any of us wants to be associated with, but it does add legitimacy and a potentially huge cadre of lawyers on our side, so long as they don't try to push out the small vendors.
 

DC2

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The Wiz

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That's exactly the way I see it. It would be nearly impossible for the FDA to have batteries, kanthol wire, flavorings and even nicotine removed from the market. Eliminating advertising and taking ecigs off store shelves would be comparatively easy. That would drastically reduce smokers' exposure to the benefits of the electronic cigarette and would also relegate the the technology to an underground market. We vapers wouldn't suffer that much, but far fewer people would be picking up an ecig to try out.

One of the most hopeful events of the past year in my opinion has been big tobacco's entry into the market. It's not necessarily the industry that any of us wants to be associated with, but it does add legitimacy and a potentially huge cadre of lawyers on our side, so long as they don't try to push out the small vendors.
I couldn't agree more Cyberwolf. I don't see those who already vape coming upon hard times. Maybe one or two less Njoy or Blu commercials on tv,that's about it.

I can see this whole mess taking years to be settled one way or another.

Good post!
:)Wiz!
 

The Wiz

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Regardless of how many of us manage to use ecigs to quit, still, a great number of people that try or have bought e-cigs find them not satisfying enough. They go back to regular cigarettes within a month. Pharma companies and doctors still can rely on a good revenue stream. Count on it.
Those same people really have no desire to quit smoking. I know many who would rather smoke in spite of the health risk. E-cigs are not for everyone.

:)Wiz!
 

rolygate

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.......... One of the most hopeful events of the past year in my opinion has been big tobacco's entry into the market. It's not necessarily the industry that any of us wants to be associated with, but it does add legitimacy and a potentially huge cadre of lawyers on our side, so long as they don't try to push out the small vendors.

I know which out of big tobacco or big pharma I'd prefer to be associated with: the tobacco industry.

Let's do a balance:

What tobacco did wrong
Lied about cigarettes being addictive.
Lied about cigarettes harming and killing.
[- but everyone knew they were lying, right down to the 12 year old next door.]

Left a huge paper trail in place that, when discovered (as it obviously would be), proved they knew they were lying.

Lied everywhere about everything.
[- but everyone knows they are institutionally incapable of doing anything other than lie]

They bought, and they continue to buy, politicians and government agency staff. But whereas in the past this was an effective tool to bury the truth (which it shouldn't have been used for), now it can't be used for that as everyone knows they are lying or likely to be obfuscating the facts somehow. They are institutionally incapable of telling the truth - but everyone knows that, so it's hardly a major sin: when all know you are telling porkies it tends to reduce the effectiveness. In fact you could say it's useless.

The general public are absolutely aware of their harmful activities, and even the 12.y.o. next door knows it.

So basically they were incompetently managed, on a gargantuan scale, and still don't really get it. They should have just admitted everything, and taken the 30% sales hit for a few months - because after a bit it's back to business as usual. Print a skull & crossbones on the packet and have done with it. People forget soon enough, a year later it's history. You get Brownie points for being honest, but no one likes people who continually lie and who are continually exposed for it. It makes no sense to go that route, which is why I say they were gigantically incompetent.


What pharma did wrong

Up until late last year they were the world's largest criminals, having paid the largest criminal fines in history (untold billions). The oil industry has taken that title; but you could probably regard that as a temporary situation, oil are not stupid and having made a mess of things will learn from their mistakes. Pharma on the other hand have to use illegal and unethical methods of doing business since they are essentially a drug cartel. There is no functional difference between a drug cartel headquartered in Geneva, Switzerland, and one based in Medellin, Colombia: they both need to move product, at any cost, and cannot accept artificial restrictions imposed on them by laws and ethics.

They buy politicians, government agencies, government staff, and doctors.

They kill tens of thousands with unsafe drugs, placed on the market and kept there by means of corruption.

They kill hundreds of thousands with bought laws and regulations, obtained by means of corruption.

They have paid the largest fines in history for criminal fraud, and regard it as the cost of doing business.

They have paid the largest fines in history for criminal corruption, and regard it as the cost of doing business.

Their principal mode of operation is to buy government agencies, government staff, and doctors, which allows them to proceed any way they like.

They buy medics to lie for them and promote their propaganda.

They may well make the antibiotics that cure the sick little kiddies, but that goes in parallel with a vast drug trade protected at the highest levels that does untold harm and kills tens of thousands a year.

They buy laws to remove competitors, even when those competitors would save millions of lives (Snus for example).

They attempt to buy laws that would kill even more millions (ecig bans).

The general public are completely unaware of their criminal activities.


--------------
So, on balance, I'd prefer to be associated with incompetent liars who in some cases can't seem to learn from their mistakes, rather than murderous drug dealers who buy government staff as a matter of course and are trying to kill millions as their main business MO.


In the short term, BT's involvement with ecigs will be to our benefit. This is because they will start to help fight the bans, they will lobby at top level in that regard, and they will market ecigs far more effectively than the current players, who don't have a clue.

In the long term they will be a massive negative, since they will attempt to remove competitors by regulation, once things have stabilised and the market begins to mature. BT can survive under the toughest regulatory climate; but everything the ecig community values is of no use to BT and will eventually be seen as a threat.

Today, BT are friendly colleagues helping to fight BP (or will be in a few months, when they get their act together).

In 5 or 10 years, they won't be so friendly. It's just business, after all.
 
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rolygate

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Thanks. That post is pure opinion and not based on the usual stats and numbers that give a good basis for an accurate analysis, though.

Basically, it's just my opinion that BT are liars but everybody knows it, versus BP who are the world's largest criminal cartel (from a legal perspective).

The really impressive thing about pharma's operation is how everyone thinks of them as a respectable business, instead of the 21st century equivalent of the mafia, which is a more accurate way of viewing their operation. They own the lives of hundreds of millions of people and have the ability to write your death certificate. Big tobacco never had anything like this influence on everyone's lives; we've signed that away to unknown operators in Geneva and Luxembourg and Douglas I.o.M. They buy government staffers and medics like you buy fish fingers at the mall.
 
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