Let's start Looking for Alternatives to SS Mesh

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j4mmin42

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Interestingly (ironically?) enough, on a lighter note, today is Darwin Day...here's a quote from the website darwinday.org:

"Science is our most reliable knowledge system. It has been, and continues to be, acquired solely through the application of human curiosity and ingenuity and, most importantly, it has provided enormous benefit to the health, prosperity and intellectual satisfaction for our human existence. These are worthy achievements for all people to celebrate!"

Definitely a relevant thought... :)

Let's hope we don't end up winning a Darwin Award, lol.
 

Joshuasculptor

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Isn't this along the same lines as when we were all younger they told us not to put a dent in a can poke holes and smoke are "tobacco products" out of it. Because if we did we would get all timers! there was a few times I actually thought I had gotten all timers.
 

j4mmin42

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Isn't this along the same lines as when we were all younger they told us not to put a dent in a can poke holes and smoke are "tobacco products" out of it. Because if we did we would get all timers! there was a few times I actually thought I had gotten all timers.

My generation was more resourceful...we would just use rolled and folded aluminium foil, hahah.
 

rav4gema

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how about some bamboo chop stick u get at the Chinese food store and shave it into multiple strand then wrap it with some wire or something to turn it to a wick then stick it into the RBA, then wrap your coil and see how that work. i think if the bamboo is wick right it should not burn. and if it dont do the trick u shouldnt be out of much money just a trip to the restaurant and dinner. just my 2 cent
 

vapdivrr

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with all this being said, i am really not switching to ceramic wicks because i feel like the ss is causing harm, its more of a comparison intrest in flavor & performance and so far the ceramic is winning the comparisons. also not having to worry about oxidizing or unoxidizing the wicks is a plus, the less items for me the better. for me it is alot more convienent to just have wicks and not to have different sheets of mesh, a torch, a drill bit, a paperclip, etc, i know they are small things, but if i can just have a handfull of wicks, that to me is easier, and the fact that they work much better, taste much better and set-up much better, is all the more reason. now i am not throwing away my mesh just yet, for i really dont know how long these ceramic wicks will last for, for 4 bucks a pop they better last for a couple of months, at least, well see.
 

Rule62

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As I mentioned before, I have a short piece of Nextel braided sleeving. I just haven't fooled around with it yet; but it looks promising. The idea is to sleeve the top of the ss wick, above the tank, where the coil will be, with a piece of nextel, and wrap the coil over the sleeve. It eliminates the need to oxidize the stainless. Here is the material: Nextel Braided Ceramic Very High Temperature Sleeving
 

j4mmin42

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with all this being said, i am really not switching to ceramic wicks because i feel like the ss is causing harm, its more of a comparison intrest in flavor & performance and so far the ceramic is winning the comparisons. also not having to worry about oxidizing or unoxidizing the wicks is a plus, the less items for me the better. for me it is alot more convienent to just have wicks and not to have different sheets of mesh, a torch, a drill bit, a paperclip, etc, i know they are small things, but if i can just have a handfull of wicks, that to me is easier, and the fact that they work much better, taste much better and set-up much better, is all the more reason. now i am not throwing away my mesh just yet, for i really dont know how long these ceramic wicks will last for, for 4 bucks a pop they better last for a couple of months, at least, well see.

Ninja... I do have post going for a while now in the modding forum regarding how to set up a genny with a hybrid wick (SS mesh insulated with cotton). You don't have to oxidize the SS wick or prepare it in anyway. It is actually very easy to set up.

I've already dumped my mesh. When I tried using it unoxidized, it was obvious that it still needed to be torched to remove contaminants left over from the production process...and I never actually tried boiling it.

At this point, going back to SS is my last-resort option, even in the manner that you describe, with cotton/hemp/silica insulation. If research comes back to show that it is not as dangerous as we all thought, I'll feel much better about it...but as long as there's a good chance it isn't safe to use, I'm going to avoid it. That's just me, though- and the fact that I threw about a quarter-sheet of it away has something to do with it, too...so I'm biased because of that... ;)
 

vapdivrr

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I've already dumped my mesh. When I tried using it unoxidized, it was obvious that it still needed to be torched to remove contaminants left over from the production process...and I never actually tried boiling it.

At this point, going back to SS is my last-resort option, even in the manner that you describe, with cotton/hemp/silica insulation. If research comes back to show that it is not as dangerous as we all thought, I'll feel much better about it...but as long as there's a good chance it isn't safe to use, I'm going to avoid it. That's just me, though- and the fact that I threw about a quarter-sheet of it away has something to do with it, too...so I'm biased because of that... ;)
ninja you will not regret throwing away the mesh once you have tried the awaiting ceramic, it is completly blowing me away, honestly. i have an ac-9 which is by far my fav atty, but i have no ceramic to fit it. the only size ceramic wick i have only fits the aga-t. i have not vaped my ac-9 all day, for i just got used to the flavor of the ceramic now. like i mentioned before though, it takes quite a while to break in so give it some time, but then it just like comes to life its weird that way. how can it kind of suck for a tank or 2, then be completly opposite, i dont understand this. also dont set it up to crazy to start, try being consevative first with the set-up until it breaks in then go to the thicker wire and lower resistances. but who knows if its any safer than the ss mesh
 
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j4mmin42

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Ah, I'm back with some good news.

It's funny how people, including some of the forum admins and many others here on ECF, love to chastise and frown upon that "other vaping industry" that shares so many things in common with us nicotine vapers...when in this case, I just found a ton- A TON- of answers to a few issues and debates over these wicking materials.

It has been found, in studies funded by advocacy groups for that "other industry", expert chemists have tested alumina ceramic, aluminium heating elements, and other types of ceramic vaporization tools, and found that there was no metallic residuals in the vapor. Furthermore, many of these heating elements are off-the-shelf cartridge heaters, and were not specifically designed for our applications.

In light of this, the FC-2000- and provided we get a confirmation of the material, the alumina PetSmart Top Fin wicks- have passed the first test in gaining some credibility as safe wicking materials for our uses.
 
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Atlantisboy

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Ah, I'm back with some good news.

It's funny how people, including some of the forum admins and many others here on ECF, love to chastise and frown upon that "other vaping industry" that shares so many things in common with us nicotine vapers...when in this case, I just found a ton- A TON- of answers to a few issues and debates over these wicking materials.

It has been found, in studies funded by advocacy groups for that "other industry", expert chemists have tested alumina ceramic, aluminium heating elements, and other types of ceramic vaporization tools, and found that there was no metallic residuals in the vapor. Furthermore, many of these heating elements are off-the-shelf cartridge heaters, and were not specifically designed for our applications.

In light of this, the FC-2000- and provided we get a confirmation of the material, the alumina PetSmart Top Fin wicks- have passed the first test in gaining some credibility as safe wicking materials for our uses.

Nice work bud, subscribed :)
 

foggybottom

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Thanks for starting this thread VNinja, the perfect wick is the holy grail of vaping. I think any wick material should be assessed for the following properties:

1. Capillary action (obvioulsy). How well does it wick and is its wicking ability durable? For example, Raidy, the inventor of the Genisis atty, abondoned porous ceramic early on because it clogged easily, maybe the FC-2000 is better in that regard.

2. Electrical resistivity, the greater the better, nobody likes shorts.

3. Thermal stability. Does it burn or otherwise transform chemically under repeated thermal cycling or torching during preparation?

4. Structural strength. Does it break easily (porous ceramic) or fragment with time (silica)?

5. Chemical inertness. The more the better. Does it react with pg/vg/nic/flavorings to make new compounds?

6. Safety. This is the most complicated of all and relates to items 3, 4 and 5 above.
For any action taken in life, one must carry out a risk/benefit assessment. Does one outweigh the other? I'm not talking here about vaping vs smoking, that's another topic and one that we have all weighed in favor of vaping because we otherwise wouldn't be here discussing these issues. I'm talking about the risk/benefit assessment of one wick over another. The benefits of one wick over the other are going to be subjective: one person's fantastic vape is going to be another person's "blah" or "meh". The risks on the other hand are theoretically quantifiable, but it will require decades of vapor inhalation exposure and large epidemiological studies to assess with any degree of certainty. The closest thing we have to that now is that OSHA has deemed long term inhalation exposure in workers in the glass fiber (what we call silica wick) and related industries (construction for example) to not pose any significant risk of repiratory illness or cancer. We also know that hexavalent chromium is carcinogenic, that it was found in measurable quantities in the drinking water of 31 of 35 tested american cities (crap!), and that OSHA has deemed stainless steel welders to be at risk.
Otherwise we know squat about the long term inhalation exposure risk to SS mesh, cotton, hemp, bamboo, porous ceramic or nextel ceramic fibers subjected to varying thermal and chemical exposures, and we won't for many years. On this basis, the kind of person who likes the benefits of silica wick well enough and who dislikes the fundamental lack of epidemiological evidence for the possible risks of these other materials, should stick with silica, because at least for that we do have some semi-relatable evidence.
In the meantime, the best the rest of us who are willing to experiment with other materials can do is to try to pool our research efforts and knowledge to assess them systematically according to properties 1 through 5 listed above, and any others that the members come up with.
In this regard, by criteria 3 above, I agree that the hexavalent chromium issue is a big strike against oxidized SS and has soured my feelings for it considerably and since unoxidized is a hassle for me because of criteria 2, I will probably abandon SS completely, unless an obviously safe way is found to isolate it from the resistance wire.
 
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junkman

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, I agree that the hexavalent chromium issue is a big strike against oxidized SS and has soured my feelings for it considerably and since unoxidized is a hassle for me because of criteria 2, I will probably abandon SS completely, unless an obviously safe way is found to isolate it from the resistance wire.

Unless of course, I am assuming, that we find that Cr6 isn't formed under 1300F and we can oxidze to Cr3 or Cr2 at 600F? In that case it does a good job on 1-6.

I happen to believe that SS wick is probably safe, unless you torch it to an extreme level. I don't have proof of this though.
 

j4mmin42

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Thanks for starting this thread VNinja, the perfect wick is the holy grail of vaping. I think any wick material should be assessed for the following properties:

1. Capillary action (obvioulsy). How well does it wick and is its wicking ability durable? For example, Raidy, the inventor of the Genisis atty, abondoned porous ceramic early on because it clogged easily, maybe the FC-2000 is better in that regard.

2. Electrical resistivity, the greater the better, nobody likes shorts.

3. Thermal stability. Does it burn or otherwise transform chemically under repeated thermal cycling or torching during preparation?

4. Structural strength. Does it break easily (porous ceramic) or fragment with time (silica)?

5. Chemical inertness. The more the better. Does it react with pg/vg/nic/flavorings to make new compounds?

6. Safety. This is the most complicated of all and relates to items 3, 4 and 5 above.
For any action taken in life, one must carry out a risk/benefit assessment. Does one outweigh the other? I'm not talking here about vaping vs smoking, that's another topic and one that we have all weighed in favor of vaping because we otherwise wouldn't be here discussing these issues. I'm talking about the risk/benefit assessment of one wick over another. The benefits of one wick over the other are going to be subjective: one person's fantastic vape is going to be another person's "blah" or "meh". The risks on the other hand are theoretically quantifiable, but it will require decades of vapor inhalation exposure and large epidemiological studies to assess with any degree of certainty. The closest thing we have to that now is that OSHA has deemed long term inhalation exposure in workers in the glass fiber (what we call silica wick) and related industries (construction for example) to not pose any significant risk of repiratory illness or cancer. We also know that hexavalent chromium is carcinogenic, that it was found in measurable quantities in the drinking water of 31 of 35 tested american cities (crap!), and that OSHA has deemed stainless steel welders to be at risk.
Otherwise we know squat about the long term inhalation exposure risk to SS mesh, cotton, hemp, bamboo, porous ceramic or nextel ceramic fibers subjected to varying thermal and chemical exposures, and we won't for many years. On this basis, the kind of person who likes the benefits of silica wick well enough and who dislikes the fundamental lack of epidemiological evidence for the possible risks of these other materials, should stick with silica, because at least for that we do have some semi-relatable evidence.
In the meantime, the best the rest of us who are willing to experiment with other materials can do is to try to pool our research efforts and knowledge to assess them systematically according to properties 1 through 5 listed above, and any others that the members come up with.
In this regard, by criteria 3 above, I agree that the hexavalent chromium issue is a big strike against oxidized SS and has soured my feelings for it considerably and since unoxidized is a hassle for me because of criteria 2, I will probably abandon SS completely, unless an obviously safe way is found to isolate it from the resistance wire.

Interesting post, that's a pretty good assessment of what a "perfect wick" would require, and where things are at as far as current wicking materials.


Two things: First of all, ceramics have been researched. The studies were not made public, but the vapor from vaporizers utilizing ceramic and alumina heating elements was tested via GC/MS, and was found to not contain any residuals directly from the heating elements. When I find a copy of the studies (there have been multiple studies with the same results), I will post a link.

Other than ceramic, though, the other thing I wanted to say was that I totally agree with you on silica being one of the best choices in wick material at the moment. I came to a very similar conclusion. The only thing I will say is that there is still a risk with silica- people who breathe in enough silica particles between 1 and 10 microns can develop silicosis, which increases your risk for lung cancer (seeing as we're former smokers, anything that increases the risk of lung cancer is no bueno). However, when the silica is kept wet with juice, the risks of developing silicosis from vaping appear to be minimal. Also, it would be quite easy to develop a filtration/purification system that could deal with the particles, and possibly make the vapor taste better, too... ;)
 

foggybottom

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Unless of course, I am assuming, that we find that Cr6 isn't formed under 1300F and we can oxidze to Cr3 or Cr2 at 600F? In that case it does a good job on 1-6.

If those two are shown to be true, I'd be partially happy camper, because I'm not good at oxidizing for resistivity at low temperatures.
Also, on a related tangent, I have never been able to figure out what temperatures we reach with dry burns, and thus if they should be avoided, and BTW is there any concern for the chromium in the Kanthal oxidizing to Cr6? Supposedly, at least in kilns, the oxide that forms on kanthal is aluminum oxide, but that can become gradually depleted, and then iron and chromium oxides form.
 

foggybottom

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Interesting post, that's a pretty good assessment of what a "perfect wick" would require, and where things are at as far as current wicking materials.


Two things: First of all, ceramics have been researched. The studies were not made public, but the vapor from vaporizers utilizing ceramic and alumina heating elements was tested via GC/MS, and was found to not contain any residuals directly from the heating elements. When I find a copy of the studies (there have been multiple studies with the same results), I will post a link.

Other than ceramic, though, the other thing I wanted to say was that I totally agree with you on silica being one of the best choices in wick material at the moment. I came to a very similar conclusion. The only thing I will say is that there is still a risk with silica- people who breathe in enough silica particles between 1 and 10 microns can develop silicosis, which increases your risk for lung cancer (seeing as we're former smokers, anything that increases the risk of lung cancer is no bueno). However, when the silica is kept wet with juice, the risks of developing silicosis from vaping appear to be minimal. Also, it would be quite easy to develop a filtration/purification system that could deal with the particles, and possibly make the vapor taste better, too... ;)

Ok, this is very important to keep straight: the glass used in synthetic glass fiber -what we call silica wick (and in the vast majority of glass in common usage) is amorphous (not crystalline like naturally occurring quartz which can cause silicosis when less than 10 micrometers in size) and not bundled (like asbestos which can cause mesothelioma).
A controversial study in the 1970ies had seemed to indicate that glass fiber was harmful to rats, but human epidemiological studies have shown no link to disease except for transient skin, eye or throat irritation in those heavily exposed. Thus OSHA concludes that there is insufficient evidence that it causes respiratory disease in humans, and states that it is not classifiable as to carcinogenicity. If the silica wicks we use were crystalline, I wouldn't go anywhere near them. They are not, they are amorphous silica and there is simply no evidence that associates them with silicosis or cancer over the past 3-4 decades.

Safety and Health Topics | Synthetic Mineral Fibers

As far as the ceramic heating element studies that you mention, it is important in general not only to look at the details of a study, but also whether the source of its funding has a vested interest in the product and whether other studies with different results were conducted but never revealed for obvious reasons. That said, ceramic is non conductive, probably quite chemically inert and I have hopes for it as far as the health safety criteria goes. Unfortunately it is fragile and may clog easily.
 

j4mmin42

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All very good points, and again, many of these concerns may or may not be addressed by creating a basic mechanical/chemical filtration system. I envision something modular, with different substrates for different desired purification/filtration effects, that sits inline on a PV and doesn't obstruct airflow or create any bulkiness or become a nuisance. I envision some people loving the idea, with others thinking it's absurd, lol.

I can't go into any more detail, especially not here in this setting...let's just leave it at "I'm working on it very enthusiastically".
 

xpen

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I'm just wondering if we're simply pursuing more of the same... different materials, but same principles.

I'd love to learn why mechanic nebulization (aerosol, ultrasonic?) which was experimented - and patented, I think - in the early days of the e-cig have been discontinued... on paper it'd seem an A-OK option: no wicks, no wires, just e-liquid (heck, even pure water should do with that method).

Anyone knows more on that, or about any other "lateral-thinking" vaporisation solutions?

All very good points, and again, many of these concerns may or may not be addressed by creating a basic mechanical/chemical filtration system. I envision something modular, with different substrates for different desired purification/filtration effects, that sits inline on a PV and doesn't obstruct airflow or create any bulkiness or become a nuisance. I envision some people loving the idea, with others thinking it's absurd, lol.

I can't go into any more detail, especially not here in this setting...let's just leave it at "I'm working on it very enthusiastically".
 
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foggybottom

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I'm just wondering if we're simply pursuing more of the same... different materials, but same principles.

I'd love to learn why mechanic nebulization (aerosol, ultrasonic?) which was experimented - and patented, I think - in the early days of the e-cig have been discontinued... on paper it'd seem an A-OK option: no wicks, no wires, just e-liquid (heck, even pure water should do with that method).

Anyone knows more on that, or about any other "lateral-thinking" vaporisation solutions?

I believe the chinese (physician? engineer?) who came up with the idea of nebulizing nicotine after his father died of lung cancer did develop (and patent) an ultrasonic nebulizing device. Somewhere along the line between idea and production it transformed into the "evaporative cooling" system we use now, don't know for a fact why, but I suspect it wasn't very effective, it was bulky, expensive to manufacture or all of the above. It could be that Raidy has developed something similar and that it might be hung up in a patent dispute with the original developer, but this is pure guesswork. Raidy is the original inventor of the genisis atomizer scheme and has been promising a revolutionary device for several months now. Maybe he will fix our current problems (and maybe make new ones!)
Read post#2456 on page 246 of this historic thread:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modding-forum/132663-all-my-mods-part1-246.html
 
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