Let's start Looking for Alternatives to SS Mesh

[xpen]

From the post you've mentioned it'd seem to be something more traditional (provided 'traditional' applies to the genius showing up in that thread), perhaps related to porous ceramic wicks. But then, what do I know...

Agree about the concrete possibility of new problems to go together with newer solutions, though... In just about one year of vaping I've seen problems/issues raised - not without reason, most of the times - for each and every vaping solution I've tried so far

thanks.

(...) It could be that Raidy has developed something similar and that it might be hung up in a patent dispute with the original developer, but this is pure guesswork. Raidy is the original inventor of the genisis atomizer scheme and has been promising a revolutionary device for several months now. Maybe he will fix our current problems (and maybe make new ones!)
Read post#2456 on page 246 of this historic thread:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modding-forum/132663-all-my-mods-part1-246.html

 

[Algernon]

...You, and a whole lot of other dedicated genesis vapers, too

It's going to take more than one positive test result (that no one except the OP of that other thread has actually seen) to sway public opinion. Most vapers are extreme optimists when it comes to things like this, and part of it has to do with the fact that we're ex smokers, and we know how horrible smoking is. That affects how we see the alternatives, even if the alternatives *might* have some known risks in and of themselves.

Many people will feel that myself and others are "jumping the gun" by taking action before either 1) results come back and prove that SS mesh is unsuitable, or 2) people start realizing health effects from it that were previously unknown. There are two basic types of healthcare: Acute and Preventative. In the USA, 99% of healthcare is acute, only treating illness or injury after it occurs. The changes that myself and others are making by getting rid of SS mesh before the unknown questions are answered is akin to preventative healthcare.

So more or less, I don't expect my fellow americans to jump on the bandwagon so quickly; It's just not a part of our culture to deprive ourselves of something that might be bad if we don't have enough evidence that PROVES it.

Just don't go so far that you end up trying to prove a hypothesis that's true until proven wrong.

Personally I don't think our wicks are getting hot enough for any of this to happen, even dry burning. Kanthal is very resistant to corrosion and the wick doesn't get nearly as hot while dry burning as it does while torching.

Still, "looking" and "judging" doesn't cement matters.

I'll continue vaping SS mesh. If this does become true, I've got a metric assload of ceramic braiding coming my way for some dripping atomizers... I'll live.

 

[Rule62]

The Kanthal wire itself contains about the same percentage of chromium as the stainless steel mesh. 304 ss contains about 18% Cr. 316 is about 20%. Kanthal A1 is also 20% Cr.

 

[Algernon]

The Kanthal wire itself contains about the same percentage of chromium as the stainless steel mesh. 304 ss contains about 18% Cr. 316 is about 20%. Kanthal A1 is also 20% Cr.

Is there anything that won't kill me at this point or do I have to start boiling juice in a pot on my stove while breathing over it?

 

[j4mmin42]

I believe the chinese (physician? engineer?) who came up with the idea of nebulizing nicotine after his father died of lung cancer did develop (and patent) an ultrasonic nebulizing device. Somewhere along the line between idea and production it transformed into the "evaporative cooling" system we use now, don't know for a fact why, but I suspect it wasn't very effective, it was bulky, expensive to manufacture or all of the above. It could be that Raidy has developed something similar and that it might be hung up in a patent dispute with the original developer, but this is pure guesswork. Raidy is the original inventor of the genisis atomizer scheme and has been promising a revolutionary device for several months now. Maybe he will fix our current problems (and maybe make new ones!)
Read post#2456 on page 246 of this historic thread:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modding-forum/132663-all-my-mods-part1-246.html

As far as ultrasonic devices go, I know a few people (one of them being a seasoned engineer) trying to design a pv that works on the principle, but the power consumption and size of the ultrasonic or piezoelectric elements are not at an advanced enough phase in design to be practical- yet.

Just don't go so far that you end up trying to prove a hypothesis that's true until proven wrong.

Personally I don't think our wicks are getting hot enough for any of this to happen, even dry burning. Kanthal is very resistant to corrosion and the wick doesn't get nearly as hot while dry burning as it does while torching.

Still, "looking" and "judging" doesn't cement matters.

I'll continue vaping SS mesh. If this does become true, I've got a metric assload of ceramic braiding coming my way for some dripping atomizers... I'll live.

There already is evidence to the contrary. However, you're welcome to take the counterposition on this, just like many others will...it's all about personal choice, and how much of the "unknown" you're willing to put up with.

The Kanthal wire itself contains about the same percentage of chromium as the stainless steel mesh. 304 ss contains about 18% Cr. 316 is about 20%. Kanthal A1 is also 20% Cr.

This is correct, but due to differences in the remainder of the composition, kanthal forms a highly inert aluminum oxidation layer- at least until it's been beaten to hell. After long-term use, replacing the coils is a good idea.

Also, remember that we should be thinking in terms of scale- a kanthal coil is a tiny fraction of the size/weight/surface area of an oxidized mesh wick.

 

[Boden]

Also, remember that we should be thinking in terms of scale- a kanthal coil is a tiny fraction of the size/weight/surface area of an oxidized mesh wick.

That is a very good point. Also pertaining to Kanthal, Aluminum oxidizes preferentially to a very stable Al2O3 state which is chemically inert and non conductive.

I wonder if an Anodized Aluminum mesh wick would work. It would be chemically much like the alumina air-stone wicks but be much tougher.

BTW, the "Pasta doesn't reach 1300degF" comment... I fell out of my chair laughing. Thanks

 

[Keithhe]

I'm not sure what people are worried about. These things were invented in China......and we know all their stuff is fine and can't harm us.

Sorry, just that the promise early on of this thread to stay on "alternatives" quickly became something on SS wicks. A few threads there already, but lots of good stuff here. If anyone (except the guy on Ebay) ever get the ceramic wicks again, I will try those for a while.

 

[StaircaseWit]

I'm not sure what people are worried about. These things were invented in China......and we know all their stuff is fine and can't harm us.

Sorry, just that the promise early on of this thread to stay on "alternatives" quickly became something on SS wicks. A few threads there already, but lots of good stuff here. If anyone (except the guy on Ebay) ever get the ceramic wicks again, I will try those for a while.

Hemp and cotton are both very viable candidates, as is silica. Silica has been shown to work well in Genesis-style tanks, and both hemp and cotton work with some additional considerations for wicking: using a U-wick; using helper wicks from fill-holes; using the Spin-E method where the material wraps around the center posts and the coil "floats" outside the wicking material, etc.

There are many people already actively using alternative wicks in Genesis-style RBAs, as well as other style tanks like the Drunker.

I have on order hemp twine for a couple experiments, 1mm 12-strand natural unbleached (I'll have to double or triple it up, but others are using it with success). I can't imagine much is safer than natural hemp, given its history and the studies that have been done on the effects of "other" uses for similar natural materials.

 

[foggybottom]

I have on order hemp twine for a couple experiments, 1mm 12-strand natural unbleached (I'll have to double or triple it up, but others are using it with success). I can't imagine much is safer than natural hemp, given its history and the studies that have been done on the effects of "other" uses for similar natural materials.

The studies done regarding the possible adverse effects of "hemp" by those "other users" on the respiratory tract, such as chronic bronchitis and cancer, are actually conflicting, as usual. I'm not just guessing, I reviewed and follow the literature. That said, I think it's probably unfair to compare using hemp twine in atomizers to that "other" use, and I wouldn't have concerns about trying it to find out how well it wicks and how long it lasts before gumming up or falling apart. Where to you get yours?

 

[foggybottom]

wonder if an Anodized Aluminum mesh wick would work. It would be chemically much like the alumina air-stone wicks but be much tougher.

I've been wondering that too, but can't find any fine aluminum mesh, anodized or not.

 

[Keithhe]

Is there anything that won't kill me at this point or do I have to start boiling juice in a pot on my stove while breathing over it?

That's a great idea actually. We can have a portable electric stove to carry with use. Perhaps a campers stove or something. Someone can firgure out a way to convert the heater in the car to atomize and just flood the car with vaper. I like it.

 

[StaircaseWit]

The studies done regarding the possible adverse effects of "hemp" by those "other users" on the respiratory tract, such as chronic bronchitis and cancer, are actually conflicting, as usual. I'm not just guessing, I reviewed and follow the literature. That said, I think it's probably unfair to compare using hemp twine in atomizers to that "other" use, and I wouldn't have concerns about trying it to find out how well it wicks and how long it lasts before gumming up or falling apart. Where to you get yours?

Agreed; the studies are conflicting, but those "other" users don't present with those health issues at anywhere near the rate of cigarette smokers. There are studies that suggest that other users actually have lower incidence of health issues than a control group, suggesting that there may even be a cancer-inhibiting effect. Of course, all is not known, but I too am comfortable trying it as a wicking material, especially considering no combustion (potentially) occurs.

I ordered mine from ebay, per the recommendations in this thread.

 

[amandamaher]

Good Afternoon Amanda,

This is the first time that I have heard of this issue, so this in my initial response.

All of our mesh wicking materials are made from 316L stainless steel, which is the highest grade available. I have copied a link to an impartial data sheet on this metal below:

Stainless Steel - Grade 316 - Properties, Fabrication and Applications

We are also members of the British Stainless Steel Association (BSSA) British Stainless Steel Association

Stainless steel SS316L is stabilised with molybdenum (as you can see in the data sheet) which inhibits inter granular corrosion. This means that there is no contamination whatsoever in the wire from which the mesh is woven. The only possible contamination could be on the surface resulting from the manufacturing process, i.e drawing and weaving of the wire. This would have minimal effect and should burn off immediately. However if there was an issue, an additional process of ultra sonic cleaning would completely clean the surface.

Our 316L grade mesh is used for off-shore protection, with the express purpose of withstanding high temperatures, and extremely hazardous operating conditions. We also supply 316L stainless steel for medical use and have never had any issues.

As an ISO:9001 accredited company, all of our materials are traceable back to cast and if necessary we can supply certification to confirm the actual analysis of the material purchased.

I have had a quick look at the posts on the forum, and can only suggest that SS316L, as it is used in the medical and food industries expressly for its sanitary qualities, has to be the best possible option.

I would suggest that all potential users of stainless steel mesh for wicking ensure that they purchase 316 or 316L grade from a reputable source.

I hope this helps you to resolve your concern.

We’re always very happy to have an open dialogue with our customers, so please let me know if I can be of any further assistance with this matter.

Kind Regards

Chris Platt
General Manager
The Mesh Company Ltd

 

[fraghole]

Well I just received my ebarron pro dripper, and to be honest, I think I'm more worried about the wick that's in it than the stainless in my genies. There are silica fibers everywhere. Looked at the wick the fibers look frayed and broken. This thing is brand new. When put the cap back on I could see fibers on my hands and even in the air.

 

[StaircaseWit]

Well I just received my ebarron pro dripper, and to be honest, I think I'm more worried about the wick that's in it than the stainless in my genies. There are silica fibers everywhere. Looked at the wick the fibers look frayed and broken. This thing is brand new. When put the cap back on I could see fibers on my hands and even in the air.

I'd promptly rip that thing out of there and clean the whole unit.

 

[junkman]

null

This is a great post, a well as a opportunity to have a knowledgeable source specially address chromium formation temps.

Can you follow up and ask if cr6 can firm and at what temp?

Thanks!

 

[NayrTrawe]

Well I just received my ebarron pro dripper, and to be honest, I think I'm more worried about the wick that's in it than the stainless in my genies. There are silica fibers everywhere. Looked at the wick the fibers look frayed and broken. This thing is brand new. When put the cap back on I could see fibers on my hands and even in the air.

I got a Killer 705 recently (same manufacturer, I believe) but I haven't had time to use it yet. I am going to have to take a really close look to see if I have the same problem. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[Keithhe]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think SS, by itself, and within intended use is the problem. Isn't the issue with SS heating above a certain temperature producing hazardous conditions??

 

[flintlock62]

I wonder the same thing. There is a point at which dangerous chemicals are leached from metals. One unrelated example is when I cast round lead balls for my smoke pole. At 700 deg, it's relatively safe, but at 900 deg, gases are omitted that become dangerous.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think SS, by itself, and within intended use is the problem. Isn't the issue with SS heating above a certain temperature producing hazardous conditions??

 

[j4mmin42]

Well I just received my ebarron pro dripper, and to be honest, I think I'm more worried about the wick that's in it than the stainless in my genies. There are silica fibers everywhere. Looked at the wick the fibers look frayed and broken. This thing is brand new. When put the cap back on I could see fibers on my hands and even in the air.

Sweet, if you got yours today, maybe it's a sign that mine also arrived!

Have you used a lot of silica devices? In my experience, they do get covered in silica if they're not wet with eliquid while handling them. Sometimes that's not the case, but silica is fragile stuff, especially if its shipped with it already installed (was it?)...

Anyway hopefully I'll be able to chime in on this later today if indeed it is sitting in my mail.