Let's talk about power.

[Davantrac]

I want to get to some basics about power, well mainly battery life. I know the basics about 18650s like sony supposedly the best and the more mah the longer it's supposed to last etc. But put the same rba with same coil in it on a mech mod and a variable, vape exactly the same and which would last longer?
If we had the best 18650 in hand would a mod with a fitted battery like the istick or egrip be better and last longer? I know they both have different mah batteries fitted. So basically that's a question about battery lipo lion (spelt wrong) what type of batteries are better?
Would dual serial or parralel 18650s last longer or would they last the same?

Changing to the coil a bit, does size, ohm rating really affect how long a battery will last? If so which is best low ohms high ohms? Does the amount of wraps/diameter of the coil affect battery life?

Me me I basically an early learner, I do build my own coils, anywhere between 1.0 and 2.0ohms whatever it comes out at I'll try. Still playing with diameter of them and the amount of wraps at different diameter on mainly mech clones but I do have a couple variable mods. I just want to understand some of the basics to push me the way I want to go for now.
cheers.

 

[Shootist]

Any Atty on a Mech will give you a different Vape depending on the charge of the battery. Higher wattage/voltage with a freshly charged battery and less as the battery charge drains.

A regulated Mod give you the same vape whether the battery is fully charged or nearly drained of the charge. So I would think a battery lasts longer, you get a better more consistent vape, on a regulated Mod.

 

[TheJakeBailey]

I would think there would be a couple of variables to consider. In a regulated mod, you will get a more consistent vape, because it keeps the output regulated where you set it until it doesn't have enough battery left. In a mech, the vape will change as the battery life decreases, but I would think the battery LIFE would be longer. Makes sense to me, bit I could be wrong. Some electronics guru will be along shortly.

 

[Davantrac]

I'm hoping they will. Yes I understand a mechs vape deteriorates as the the battery drains and that a regulated mod should stay constant from start to finish. It's just the rest that gets me. I'm looking into buying some new mods and want to try and understand what the best would be for me. And yes I understand that the chip will make a difference to performance. I just want to get the basics in my head, eg the most mah in lipo running the lowest ohm coil with the biggest diameter and most wraps will make the mod last longer without changing/charging the battery than the opposite. That makes it sound complicated lol.

 

[WattWick]

Don't get me wrong. I can't help noticing how you refer to batteries as lipo lion. You need more detailed knowledge than that.

The baseline factor for what makes a battery 'better' for our use is not brute power like found in LiPo batteries. The important factor for us is safety. Which is why we use IMR batteries, not lipos. Not so much for their performance as for how 'gently' they fail if and when they fail. A lipo failing next to your face may do extreme damage. Check any lipo explosion video on YouTube and you'll get the point.

mAh capacity isn't everything. We need our batteries to give a certain level of oomph (not to be confused with ohms) to be viable for our uses. Rated capacity is most often measured at much lower currents that what we tend to pull. So it's just as much about how much capacity a battery is able to deliver at our desired power outputs - as it is about total capacity. This does not only apply to mechanical mods, as a regulated mod will have to pull higher currents to compensate for voltage drop in a 'less efficient' battery, effectively draining it faster. As such, a 'high drain' battery with less capacity than a 'low drain' battery - may actually last you longer.

... and this is about as long a train of thought tapatalk allows for. I'll get back to you

 

[Ian444]

All good points above ^^

I want to get to some basics about power, well mainly battery life. I know the basics about 18650s like sony supposedly the best and the more mah the longer it's supposed to last etc. But put the same rba with same coil in it on a mech mod and a variable, vape exactly the same and which would last longer?

Batteries - mAh is mAh no matter the construction or type of battery. With say Li-ion 18650 batteries, in the construction they can make a trade-off between mAh and constant discharge capability, i.e. a higher mAh batt might have a lower constant discharge capability. Internet research will give you more info than you want to know. As far as mech vs regulated, regulated mods have an efficiency maybe 88% to 93% depending on the circuit and what power you are running at, so straight up they lose maybe 10% or so give or take a bit. On the other hand, mech mods cannot deliver the consistent vaping power of a regulated mod, and when the battery gets to 3.8V or 3.7V its all over. Depending on what source of info you read, at 3.7V you have around 20% power remaining, which is not used.

If we had the best 18650 in hand would a mod with a fitted battery like the istick or egrip be better and last longer? I know they both have different mah batteries fitted. So basically that's a question about battery lipo lion (spelt wrong) what type of batteries are better?
Would dual serial or parralel 18650s last longer or would they last the same?

The best approach (IMHO) is to work out what you need, e.g. size of mod and weight that you are prepared to live with/carry around all day, and then weigh up the inconvenience of possible battery change-out/s during the day for a smaller device vs no battery changes all day for a larger/heavier device. Lipo's deliver more power for their weight/size, but as mentioned in a previous post, they are not friendly if a short happens, far from it, seriously know your stuff before going anywhere in that direction. ETA: Its OK for a manufacturer to fit lipo's, as they know the requirements, I'm OK with that. It's just that building your own mod with lipo's you really need to know what you're doing.

Changing to the coil a bit, does size, ohm rating really affect how long a battery will last? If so which is best low ohms high ohms? Does the amount of wraps/diameter of the coil affect battery life?

I have oftened wondered about maximizing battery life, and early on I thought vaping at low power say 9 or 10W would be more efficient than vaping at 20W. But from taking note of many posts over the last 8 months, I came to the conclusion that it makes no difference; and that given a reasonably efficient coil, the available mAh from a given battery will vaporize X amount of ejuice no matter what power you vape at. Which makes sense once you think about it. So choose your power to vape at, and choose your style of mod/battery size, and then work out how to keep a charged battery in it. Whether that be charging while vaping at the PC or in the car, or having multiple batteries to change out, or having 2 mods, whatever it takes.

Me me I basically an early learner, I do build my own coils, anywhere between 1.0 and 2.0ohms whatever it comes out at I'll try. Still playing with diameter of them and the amount of wraps at different diameter on mainly mech clones but I do have a couple variable mods. I just want to understand some of the basics to push me the way I want to go for now.
cheers.

The coils in the RBA's/clearo's/RTA's that give you the best vapor production and flavor with the least power consumed will give you max battery life. At the end of the day you want vaping satisfaction, if the vape is not strong enough you might end up using the mod more often to make up for it, which defeats the purpose. First up go for the vape quality that suits you, then worry about the batts.

 

[Ryedan]

I want to get to some basics about power, well mainly battery life. I know the basics about 18650s like sony supposedly the best and the more mah the longer it's supposed to last etc. But put the same rba with same coil in it on a mech mod and a variable, vape exactly the same and which would last longer?

Well, mAh isn't the only thing to consider. One big one that people don't talk about much is internal resistance which also affects how long a battery lasts between charges.

In your example above it's easiest to consider watts instead of resistance and to use the average wattage through battery discharge for mech mods. So, for mods setup to output an average of X watts from battery voltages between 4.2 - 3.2, I believe the mech mod would run 10-20% longer because there is no regulator efficiency loss, though I have not done the experiment.

As you know though you might not be able to get a satisfactory vape between all of 4.2v - 3.2v in a mech mod because of the power change, so that has to be taken into account. I rarely want to let my mech mods go lower than 3.4v and I always aim for 3.6v minimum for the benefit of the battery.

Would dual serial or parralel 18650s last longer or would they last the same?

The same at the same wattage.

Changing to the coil a bit, does size, ohm rating really affect how long a battery will last? If so which is best low ohms high ohms? Does the amount of wraps/diameter of the coil affect battery life?

In a mech mod the average wattage is determined by atty resistance. All the battery(s) knows is how many watts are being pulled out of it.

The Steam Engine coil wrapping calculator is a great way to design coils with inside diameter, wire gauge and type, number of coils, etc, defined. I find if you enter correct data and interpret the outputs well the built atty resistance will be very close to the design and the vape qualities will also.

 

[tj99959]

Especially with your mechanical, you need to think about the power curve of the battery you choose.
With LIPO or ICR batteries the loss is a pretty strait line from 4.2 down to 3.2v.
With IMR type batteries, they drop quickly from 4.2 down to about 3.7-3.6v, and then hang there for about 80% of the charge cycle, and drop off quickly at the end of the charge cycle.

With regulated PVs the High Drain capability of an IMR (or LIPO) is required to take full advantage of the ability to regulate.

Bottom line an amp hour lasts an amp hour, so it's your total amperage draw that determines how long a battery charge lasts .... nothing else.
Internal battery resistance, internal mod resistance, and coil resistance, all determine how many amps are being used (not just coil resistance)

 

[AttyPops]

You lose some slight efficiency with a regulated mod due to loss/resistance of the electronics (electronics dissipate this loss as heat/infra-red energy). However you gain some safety (IMHO) and you get adjustability and consistency. The loss is pretty minor when you consider what it does. 99.x% of the energy still goes to the coil.

So if you lose 5 minutes of charge compared to a mech, but gain a bunch of stuff... it's a decent trade off. I think that your question, although interesting and informative, can't be viewed in isolation in real life circumstances. It's an educational-question only. In reality, it's the features that make the most difference in the mech vs regulated arena.

As to the ohms question, yes it matters. Think of ohms as "how far open the valve on a faucet is". The higher the number the more closed it is...the lower the number the more open it is where 0 is full-goose bozo open (a short in electrical terms). The more open the valve is, the more water you use. The lower the ohms, the more energy you use per second.

Think about the utility company. They charge per energy used (amount used per time...KWH). Watts and ohms are directly related....watts = voltage squared divided by ohms.

 

[PaulBHC]

The Steam Engine coil calculator also has a tab for Battery Drain. You can play with the numbers and see how many minutes of time you will get and how many puffs. These numbers may not reflect real world use but can give you numbers to compare based on build and battery.

 

[WattWick]

Just to illustrate my previous post:

These are IMR batteries failing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haMDZOfjqsE

These are LiPos failing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9mcNvOGKtI

And this is a random Trustfire battery failing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzEHsJVZhA

Don't be the guy trying to blow out a lipo fire... feel free to go for a spin around a car or two, tho

 

[DaveP]

You want to look at LiMn (lithium manganese) batteries. These are the lMR type batteries. They are safer in that the battery chemistry doesn't react as violently as L-ion (lithium ion) batteries in a high drain or short situation.

MAH does refer to the discharge rate at a given voltage. You also have to look at the maximum discharge rate ratings to determine how well the battery is designed. Those numbers all seem to be inflated and frequently a battery will be advertised as a 60 amp battery, when that number is actually the pulse rating for that battery, not the continuous use rating.

So, you can see that battery evaluation is a subject better left up to those who have the equipment and knowledge to test and evaluate what's best for us. Here's a couple of links to an extensive collection of batteries that were exhaustively tested. Scroll down to the discharge tests and be sure that you examine the discharge rates that go with the colored bars. Most of us load our ecig batteries in the 2 to 4 amp range, but there are some who push them to 15 or 20 amps and higher with sub ohm coils. Current load makes a difference in charge life.

Battery test-review 18650 summary

 

[tj99959]

Just to illustrate my previous post:

These are IMR batteries failing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haMDZOfjqsE

These are LiPos failing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9mcNvOGKtI

And this is a random Trustfire battery failing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzEHsJVZhA

Don't be the guy trying to blow out a lipo fire... feel free to go for a spin around a car or two, tho

And the bad thing is that once thermal runaway starts, it can not be turned off. So by all means, take a tour of the parking lot

 

[Davantrac]

Thanks everyone. What I got from that was basically vape what you like there is very little difference in battery life (time) as long as I buy quality, trust the guys who design the stuff. The time difference between them all is of little significance to worry about. With that sentence and me being still pretty new on the scene what I'm saying is all good batteries will last roughly the same time. The little thing in my head that niggles is watching comments that say I can make xxx last 3 days etc when all my batteries no matter what I put them in or what atty at whatever ohm only seem to last about 12 hours or so give or take a bit.
I find like real stinkys and vaping, I do it more for the physical habit than the enjoyment and maybe a bit of nic hit, but is don't really enjoy it. So I'm looking to set up a nice to look and feel mod with good reliability and make a good atty and juice to suit that and me.
Physically small as possible, but last up to 24 hours would be nice, carry about 5ml of juice and need no fiddling with. Weight doesn't bother me, I'd rather be small and heavy than big and light. The styling of the kato box and micro stick with atty inside I like that's why the egrip appeals to me.
But again thanks everyone.

 

[Davantrac]

The Steam Engine coil calculator also has a tab for Battery Drain. You can play with the numbers and see how many minutes of time you will get and how many puffs. These numbers may not reflect real world use but can give you numbers to compare based on build and battery.

I do use steam quite a bit but never seen the battery drain section, I will certainly look for that. Cheers.

 

[WattWick]

And the bad thing is that once thermal runaway starts, it can not be turned off. So by all means, take a tour of the parking lot

I just can't help laughing when I see that clip. One guy trying to blow out a lipo fire. Another taking a little jog around a car and back. I do feel bad for them tho.

 

[DaveP]

Thanks everyone. What I got from that was basically vape what you like there is very little difference in battery life (time) as long as I buy quality, trust the guys who design the stuff. The time difference between them all is of little significance to worry about. With that sentence and me being still pretty new on the scene what I'm saying is all good batteries will last roughly the same time. The little thing in my head that niggles is watching comments that say I can make xxx last 3 days etc when all my batteries no matter what I put them in or what atty at whatever ohm only seem to last about 12 hours or so give or take a bit.
I find like real stinkys and vaping, I do it more for the physical habit than the enjoyment and maybe a bit of nic hit, but is don't really enjoy it. So I'm looking to set up a nice to look and feel mod with good reliability and make a good atty and juice to suit that and me.
Physically small as possible, but last up to 24 hours would be nice, carry about 5ml of juice and need no fiddling with. Weight doesn't bother me, I'd rather be small and heavy than big and light. The styling of the kato box and micro stick with atty inside I like that's why the egrip appeals to me.
But again thanks everyone.

It's hard to predict battery charge life. Outside of buying batteries with large MAH ratings you need to experiment and find out how long a given battery lasts for you. Some people vape like they smoked ... a little here and a little more later. Others (most of us) chain vape and always have our mods in our pockets for a quick vape. If you only vape on breaks at work, then a battery could last you into the next day. If you have a job where you can vape when you like, carry a spare in a plastic case ... you'll need it.

I've been using the Eleaf iStick lately. It charges from a USB source and can be vaped in passthrough mode while it's connected to a USB charge cable.. I use my Provari while the iStick is charging sometimes.

 

[jambi]

Especially with your mechanical, you need to think about the power curve of the battery you choose.
With LIPO or ICR batteries the loss is a pretty strait line from 4.2 down to 3.2v.
With IMR type batteries, they drop quickly from 4.2 down to about 3.7-3.6v, and then hang there for about 80% of the charge cycle, and drop off quickly at the end of the charge cycle.

With regulated PVs the High Drain capability of an IMR (or LIPO) is required to take full advantage of the ability to regulate.

Bottom line an amp hour lasts an amp hour, so it's your total amperage draw that determines how long a battery charge lasts .... nothing else.
Internal battery resistance, internal mod resistance, and coil resistance, all determine how many amps are being used (not just coil resistance)

What do the abbreviations stand for?

LIPO
ICR
IMR

 

[rusirius]

It's hard to predict battery charge life.

Nah... Not really...

If we had a 2000mAh battery.... 2000*3.7/1000 = 7.4Wh

So if we had a regulator that was 90% efficient we'd have 6.66Wh or 23976 Watt seconds

So if we set our regulator to output 20 watts we could run that continuously for 1199 seconds.... If we had 4 second draws that would be about 300 puffs...

If we ran at 50 watts we could run continuously for 480 seconds... or 120 4 second puffs...

Run at 10 watts and we get 2398 seconds... or 599 puffs...

It's not PERFECTLY exact... LOL... but it's pretty darn close...

To the OP... What everyone has been saying in this thread (very well I might add) is that a watt hour is a watt hour no matter what... There are other variables that affect it, but for the most part the load isn't going to make any difference... If you draw the same power out of a battery it's going to last the same amount of time, regardless of how that power is configured.

With a regulated mod you have efficiency losses, plus any extra accessories. Screen displays, MCU's, etc all draw a little extra power themselves which you don't have in a mech. Plus with a mech as the battery voltage depletes you are actually running at lower and lower wattages, meaning drawing less and less power... So yes, a mech is going to last longer in that regard. With a regulated mod you're going to be drawing the same power throughout the entire life of the battery.

 

[tj99959]

Lipo = Lithium Polymer
ICR = Lithium Cobalt (protected)
IMR = Lithium Manganese