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From what I can gather, most vendors are pretty mickey mouse. They don't have either the funds and/or the business planning to set up a proper business (by the standards of almost any other industry) in regards to product integrity or customer service. A lot seem to be vapors who thought it would be a good idea to set up shop without any knowledge of business practice.
If this hobby/industry doesn't get kicked in the nuts by the FDA and continues to grow; we will see people with more money and business acumen come in and set up a proper shop with the right controls, product pipeline and Q&A. Some of what is around will survive and some won't.
While I don't think people should ever stop researching, I'd appreciate a vendor that is better setup than I could do in a weeks notice. Some are better than others but almost all are terrible in regard to carrying mostly untested products of questionable quality.
Ideas way outpace proper execution of a concept in this industry. Innovation is more than just new types of products. We accept that and eat the cost of any crap we buy that doesn't work, that's part of the reason it'll stay that way for a bit.
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That's a separate issue from a junk product entirely though. Products that do not perform consistently per instructed use, or that sometimes require a host of tinkering attempts to work correctly, are a whole other matter than subjective satisfaction or user errors. If it doesn't perform as it was designed to, shouldn't the vendor back it up?
Just to qualify that last statement, when I say cheap I dont mean price. Cheap to me means cheaper quality.
Didnt want anyone confusing that.Im not saying go out and buy a solid gold GG, what I am saying is buy the highest quality you can afford and it will pay off in the long run.
If I was looking at cars and was on a limited budget I likely wouldnt buy a Yugo (anyone remember those? OR a brand new Caddilac Escalade. I would probably be looking at Honda Civics and Toyota Camris.
Never doubted what you meant my friend, and I agree 100%. You don't just check out a vendor, you also check out the item you are buying.
Mac
I didn't say that it had been. Quite the opposite.
Also, you can't quantify innovations that never happened due to a motivated person being turned off even attempting through poor products or a bad customer service experience.
Essentially what I'm saying is that manufacturers and vendors don't hold themselves to a steady standard because we don't make them. Myself included. I'll notch a silicone cap on a vision product for better wicking, but why aren't they doing that? Because they know we will. Why accept returns from a customer that was too lazy to get on a forum and watch a very helpfully provided youtube link on how to maximize their product use? Our community is fantastic, so no disrespect intended, but we're basically picking up the ethics slack. Go us!
I am 100 percent on board with you on this. I added something to my other post about it too. The gist is...it's not innovation if the product doesn't function properly as sold and us accepting it like that is what keeps it going.
We need to stop buying v2's when v1 didn't work.
What you did is modification you think helps you to the item you purchased. Modification that I actually see as useless, can't tell difference in taste between 3x3mm wick with notched cap and 2x2ml with stock cap...
Did you your pc/tablet and rant that it doesn't have OS/Firmware to push hardware to it's limits? Or that it's not overclocked and you need to go to BIOS and do it yourself after watching youtube how to's? Oh wait... it probably works pretty fine out of the box...
So vivi isn't functioning properly out of the box? That's interesting...
This thread deserves all the facepalms that exist.
This response deserves all the U Mad? memes that exist. I'm sure there was a point in there somewhere between what you find to be a worthwhile modification, and what you personally judge to be the accepted stock standard of everything from vivis to PC's. Not that you tied it to innovation, consumer driven or otherwise, or how that relates to any sort of manufacturing or customer service standard. But hey you mentioned overclocking and Bios, shall we talk about all the ways PC tech, manufacturing, service, warranties, Q&A, and customer service differ from vaping vendors and suppliers in relation to their consumer base? Or was that just to note your tech "cred"? I award you no points, and only respond due to your random urge to quote me to begin with.
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This is quickly becoming the World of Warcaft and the Spacebattles.net forums, which I so desperately left to find sane and level headed and peaceful people. I wanted to find it here!
I guess there is no "hippie commune" online where everyone gets along. I'm kinda sad.
I guess there is no "hippie commune" online where everyone gets along. I'm kinda sad.
Huh ? Did you post in the wrong thread ? Im not sure what you meant in relation to this thread.
Guessing it relates to how worthy topics devolve into bs once the chest puffing, over simplification, logical fallacies and false equivalents start getting thrown around. Woe to one who thinks the PC mass market industry compares economically or ethically to niche markets like the E-cig.
Pick w/e industry you like. I'm picking tech not because of the cred on tEh webz.
Damn bakeries! Why can't they make layers of creme cheese, WTH I need to do that every time!
And back to tech...
For instance the monitor that I'm using right now... pre-configure picture profiles aren't delivering what I want, so I made adjustments...
Haven't done myself, but people are soldering caps on some GPU's to maximize overclock capacity. Got denied GPU warranty that burned. Told I've done that. Got DoA HDD that was denied by retailer and manufacturer due to it being mechanical HDD... and that I probably dropped it... Got samsung tab2 that had only half of screen working... one-x that dropped signal to zero every 30min... QC... R&D... yeah, right... customer service that takes up to 3 days to get an answer and than 30 days to chat till they start moving thing if at all...
And then there was vivi that pbusardo reviewed from gotvapes. And than me who bought couple of those from there and they work flawless and $40 APV that was faulty and got replacement no questions asked. That was sent out before I sent faulty unit to them... And then there's One-X that is faulty and acknowledge by company that this deffect exist and me sending unit to them to CHECK IT OUT for 2 month... and than there's me trying mesh wick in vivi and enjoying that one even tho it was never intended to host mesh wick...
but yeah, damn vendors...
P.S. my respond is just for your last post that I quoted before. About notching vivi silicone cap... maximizing performance by modding their product...
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Wondertwin:8393452 said:
I think we actually generally agree on this, though we are getting there a different way. The ultimate responsibility DOES lie with us, the vendor is just giving us what we want at the end of the day.
And I'm not sure what you mean by the returns comment though, many vendors do, do this though, even in the case of user error, they take returns.
Perfect real world example- I ordered a couple of Siam Mods tanks from Clouds of Vapor about 6 months ago, once I got them, and filled one up with juice, I realized they weren't for me, they were the slim tanks and I though that they may close on my Darwin, they didn't, I sent an email to Bruce, was honest and respectful, and he gave me a full refund and took them back, very cool, hes got a consistent customer here.
There are good vendors who do go above and beyond.
Wondertwin summed it up perfectly for me, and DiNet, two thumbs up surviving the language barrier.
You can't make willy nilly comparisons that are not equivalents and expect to have thoughtful discussion. Not all industries are regulated, managed or produced on the same scale. To that end, comparing computer technology to vaping is absurd, as is the food industry which is monitored by multiple agencies and is subject to oversight. Not a just poor comparisons, wrong ones.
Whether or not you approve a youtube inspired mod or not isn't the issue either, but what I think of the actual ethics regarding suppliers and users was covered a long while back.
For sure we agree on buyer responsibility and varying degrees of vendor quality. Regarding returns I'm just looking at the larger issue of why a vendor shouldn't be expected to accept them due to the disposable nature of a lot of our products. Emphasis on disposable nature, it's evolution and the role of consumers and manufacturers in it. I went into that in an earlier post, and Aleve is kicking my .... so I'll spare the retelling!
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Hmmm...well the vivi nova v2.5 I have works fine out of the box but why is something a year old on v2.5 already?
I have T3's that need things adjusted or trimmed to work, T2's which need replacement caps because the originals were and still are for the most part crap, all manner of failed clearos that leaked, didn't wick right or cracked. Most of those are on more than one version. How many zmax's are there and how many lavatubes? Leaking clearos, burn plastic Fluxos, phoenix tank bad tastes...all solved by folks way in a way the company selling or making them could have done with proper testing or QA. Oh and the Tox which is still sold even after being proven to be that fails and when it doesn't, doesn't deliver.
If you don't think there is an issue with this, fine. Just reconsider who should be facepalming. There is consumer responsibility and then there is this implied consent to manufacturer/vendor negligence.
Wondertwin:8394462 said:
I don't disagree on vendor responsibility at all, I DO think they should be held responsible, but that has to come from the consumer, us, because as the consumer, we have the ultimate power, when we consistently patronize vendors who promote inferior products, made by manufactures who consistently produce inferior products, and then get the shaft by a vendor who doesn't back the product he sells, we are to blame. That vendor is kept in business by our continued patronage. In a free market, its obvious, if a person is making money they are providing a service of value to someone, even if we can't see it, someone finds value there.
I choose to use my power in support of good vendors and against bad vendors.
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