Lorillard/Reynolds offically stating they want a monopoly on the market

[frosting]

Not sure if this is old news, or "new" news so I apologize if anyone has already submitted, but this is very important nonetheless. I can not be 100% of the accuracy, and would encourage those who can set the record straight to do so.

Link: Lorillard Calls for Ban on Vapor Rivals

Summary: Essentially Lorillard/Reynolds has released a statement that they don't want anything else on the market besides their brand/kind of cigarette shaped lackluster quality e-ciggs. To "Level the playing field" is their claim. Big tobacco is trying to separate APVs vs cig-a-likes, as if they are not the same thing. Sure there are differences, but when it gets down to it a battery is used to heat up an atomizer to create vapor on either a cig-alike or an APV.

"Vapor systems differ from e-cigs in several important ways. Where e-cigs are battery-powered devices that heat a liquid nicotine solution in a self-contained disposable cartridge and create a vapor that is inhaled, PVS's are open-system formats that often feature a liquid capsule that is inserted into a cartridge."

Uhh. What? A liquid capsule inserted into a cartridge? That part may be more fault of the author not having a good grasp on the topic, but still confusing and doesn't help the public get a better understanding either.

Could their goal to force everyone to use sub-par technology have anything to do with this?

"It's that industry shift away from e-cigs and into vaping that has Reynolds concerned. It's invested a lot of money in developing Vuse, and only just rolled it out nationally this past June, just as Altria was rolling out its MarkTen brand. Even Lorillard saw e-cig revenues drop 14% in the first quarter of the year, to $49 million, and watched it tumble another 23% in the second, as lower volumes and the introduction of the lower-priced rechargeable kits cut sales."

However, at the end the author generally agrees with what would be this community's consensus.

"Ultimately, its opposition may simply be more a matter of money than acting in the public's interest."

Should Reynolds try to go full steam ahead with this insane proposition it will be important that the vaping community reach out on our representatives and senators to call it like it is. They are trying to create a monopoly of the market, and this cannot be tolerated.

 

[xhuffer]

The writer of the article is obviously didn't bother to do his homework and is unfamiliar with the open tank system as is evidenced by the liquid capsule insertion reference. What BT is trying to do is ban open tank systems so they can continue to push their proprietary nonrefillable overpriced cartridges which go into their anemic e-cig contraptions. They want to eliminate and criminalize the dangerous competition posed by APV's.
They must know at this point that their product is lacking in the "delivery" of what a true vapor demands. I believe this is intentional on their part so frustrated users just go back to rolled tobacco death sticks.

 

[Nate760]

They must know at this point that their product is lacking in the "delivery" of what a true vapor demands. I believe this is intentional on their part so frustrated users just go back to rolled tobacco death sticks.

Can't we please avoid the "no true vaper" fallacy? Everyone who vapes is a true vaper. It matters not whether they use cigalikes or APVs. It matters not whether their product of choice is owned by a tobacco company. These are superfluous distinctions that do nothing to further our cause, and probably wind up harming it by introducing notions of tribalism that create opposing camps where none need exist.

No one person's vaping habits are intrinsically better than anyone else's. Nothing is to be gained by one group of vapers looking down their noses in contempt at another group. If you successfully used a vapor product to get yourself off cigarettes, that is the only thing that matters.

 

[frosting]

I believe this is intentional on their part so frustrated users just go back to rolled tobacco death sticks.

That part makes a lot of sense. There is no way BT has not examined and investigated the market at this point.

 

[DC2]

Not sure if this is old news, or "new" news so I apologize if anyone has already submitted, but this is very important nonetheless. I can not be 100% of the accuracy, and would encourage those who can set the record straight to do so.

There are a couple of threads in the FDA Regulations subforum regarding this, and yes it is accurate...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...da-comment-asking-its-competition-banned.html

 

[Nate760]

It's become almost a matter of orthodoxy among vapers that people are inherently less likely to quit smoking if they use a certain type of vapor product (specifically, the cartomizer-style and disposable e-cigs commonly sold by the tobacco companies). Sometimes, as is now being done in this thread, it is asserted that the tobacco companies intentionally make inferior e-cig products so that users will be more likely to return to cigarettes. It should be noted, however, that no one has yet produced any evidence supporting either of these claims.

Moreover, my own experience, which I freely admit is anecdotal and in no way authoritative, gives me no reason to ascribe credibility to such assertions. I quit a 25-year cigarette habit, in a matter of 48 hours, armed with nothing but a Blu starter kit. It was a spur-of-the-moment impulse purchase, made solely out of curiosity, at my regular smoke shop. Until that moment, I had never had the slightest inclination to quit smoking. I enjoyed smoking, from the first day I did it right up until the last day. For reasons I can't explain, I walked in the smoke shop that afternoon to get a pack of Winstons, saw the Blu display on the counter, and decided maybe I'd give quitting a try. After a couple weeks, as most people do, I started broadening my horizons and using better products. But the fact remains that the little Blu starter kit performed well enough to get me off cigarettes, almost overnight, with hardly any suffering. If that display hadn't been there, there's a pretty strong likelihood I'd be sitting here with a smoldering cigarette in my hand today.

 

[DrMA]

It's become almost a matter of orthodoxy among vapers that people are inherently less likely to quit smoking if they use a certain type of vapor product (specifically, the cartomizer-style and disposable e-cigs commonly sold by the tobacco companies). Sometimes, as is now being done in this thread, it is asserted that the tobacco companies intentionally make inferior e-cig products so that users will be more likely to return to cigarettes. It should be noted, however, that no one has yet produced any evidence supporting either of these claims.

Moreover, my own experience, which I freely admit is anecdotal and in no way authoritative, gives me no reason to ascribe credibility to such assertions. I quit a 25-year cigarette habit, in a matter of 48 hours, armed with nothing but a Blu starter kit. It was a spur-of-the-moment impulse purchase, made solely out of curiosity, at my regular smoke shop. Until that moment, I had never had the slightest inclination to quit smoking. I enjoyed smoking, from the first day I did it right up until the last day. For reasons I can't explain, I walked in the smoke shop that afternoon to get a pack of Winstons, saw the Blu display on the counter, and decided maybe I'd give quitting a try. After a couple weeks, as most people do, I started broadening my horizons and using better products. But the fact remains that the little Blu starter kit performed well enough to get me off cigarettes, almost overnight, with hardly any suffering. If that display hadn't been there, there's a pretty strong likelihood I'd be sitting here with a smoldering cigarette in my hand today.

Perhaps there's some truth to the "gateway" hypothesis after all. Except that cigalikes serve as a gateway to bigger, more powerful PV systems (provided they remain available), rather than to smoking. Maybe we can coin a new buzzword: the "archway hypothesis", wherein cigalikes serve as the grand Exit archway from smoking and into vaping with so-called "tank systems".

That being said, I agree that disparaging vapers based on the equipment they use is a grave error and creates unnecessary dissent within a community which otherwise has a common goal and approach.

 

[Nate760]

That being said, I agree that disparaging vapers based on the equipment they use is a grave error and creates unnecessary dissent within a community which otherwise has a common goal and approach.

Thank you for expressing this thought more succinctly and elegantly than I did.

 

[frosting]

It's become almost a matter of orthodoxy among vapers that people are inherently less likely to quit smoking if they use a certain type of vapor product (specifically, the cartomizer-style and disposable e-cigs commonly sold by the tobacco companies). Sometimes, as is now being done in this thread, it is asserted that the tobacco companies intentionally make inferior e-cig products so that users will be more likely to return to cigarettes. It should be noted, however, that no one has yet produced any evidence supporting either of these claims.

Moreover, my own experience, which I freely admit is anecdotal and in no way authoritative, gives me no reason to ascribe credibility to such assertions. I quit a 25-year cigarette habit, in a matter of 48 hours, armed with nothing but a Blu starter kit. It was a spur-of-the-moment impulse purchase, made solely out of curiosity, at my regular smoke shop. Until that moment, I had never had the slightest inclination to quit smoking. I enjoyed smoking, from the first day I did it right up until the last day. For reasons I can't explain, I walked in the smoke shop that afternoon to get a pack of Winstons, saw the Blu display on the counter, and decided maybe I'd give quitting a try. After a couple weeks, as most people do, I started broadening my horizons and using better products. But the fact remains that the little Blu starter kit performed well enough to get me off cigarettes, almost overnight, with hardly any suffering. If that display hadn't been there, there's a pretty strong likelihood I'd be sitting here with a smoldering cigarette in my hand today.

Just to clarify, and make this crystal clear, In no way did I intend to to try to "disparage" those who use a cig-alike type e-cig. However, I must disagree there is not evidence which supports many who first try a Blu or cig-alike are then turned off by vaping as a whole. It works for some, however there are hundreds if not thousands of testaments of this very issue within the archives of ECF.

It does seem very strange that BT continues to push only this product even though its profits have faltered greatly as people either don't like it and stop using their devices altogether or find another means to keep vaping, which leads us to why this issue is even happening. BT can't handle the competition and refuse to evolve in order to compete at least as of now, and instead are trying to wipe out the competition instead.

By all means if a cig-alike makes someone happy, good for them. That's their decision. The issue here is that for many hundreds of thousands, maybe getting to a million now(hard to keep up how many of us there are with how fast we are growing), cig-alike technology is not good enough and it doesn't compare to the experience of more advanced vaporizers. This is not saying cig-alikes are bad, it is to say that many people prefer advanced methods and they should have a right to those devices if that is their preference. I can only imagine some vapers would in fact end up smoking again if they had no other option than a cig-alike and I find that wrong and immoral.

 

[DC2]

It's become almost a matter of orthodoxy among vapers that people are inherently less likely to quit smoking if they use a certain type of vapor product (specifically, the cartomizer-style and disposable e-cigs commonly sold by the tobacco companies). Sometimes, as is now being done in this thread, it is asserted that the tobacco companies intentionally make inferior e-cig products so that users will be more likely to return to cigarettes. It should be noted, however, that no one has yet produced any evidence supporting either of these claims.

Moreover, my own experience, which I freely admit is anecdotal and in no way authoritative, gives me no reason to ascribe credibility to such assertions. I quit a 25-year cigarette habit, in a matter of 48 hours, armed with nothing but a Blu starter kit. It was a spur-of-the-moment impulse purchase, made solely out of curiosity, at my regular smoke shop. Until that moment, I had never had the slightest inclination to quit smoking. I enjoyed smoking, from the first day I did it right up until the last day. For reasons I can't explain, I walked in the smoke shop that afternoon to get a pack of Winstons, saw the Blu display on the counter, and decided maybe I'd give quitting a try. After a couple weeks, as most people do, I started broadening my horizons and using better products. But the fact remains that the little Blu starter kit performed well enough to get me off cigarettes, almost overnight, with hardly any suffering. If that display hadn't been there, there's a pretty strong likelihood I'd be sitting here with a smoldering cigarette in my hand today.

Maybe it would be more accurate to say that STAYING quit is harder with cigalikes.

Back before there were options like the Ego to move up to, it was much harder for people to quit and stay quit.
It gets very tiring refilling those tiny cartridges all day, and recharging batteries numerous times per day.

But there were certainly a fair share of people who just weren't satisfied enough with cigalikes for reasons related to lack of power.

As someone who has seen the evolution of electronic cigarettes over the course of the last five years...
I am confident in saying that the ease with which all manner of people can quit and stay quit has grown in lock step with that evolution.


EDIT: Here's a thread that might interest you: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-vaping-discussion/470502-i-remember-back-day.html

 

[Nate760]

By all means if a cig-alike makes someone happy, good for them. That's their decision. The issue here is that for many hundreds of thousands, maybe getting to a million now(hard to keep up how many of us there are with how fast we are growing), cig-alike technology is not good enough and it doesn't compare to the experience of more advanced vaporizers.

I think there's a very important factor you might be overlooking: people who are first making the transition generally want their e-cig experience to mimic their smoking experience as closely as possible, down to each little visual and tactile detail. As superior as second- and third-generation devices are, they can be ineffective for some people as a direct replacement for cigarettes, because the experience of smoking a cigarette is not being replicated to a sufficient degree.

Experienced vapers should take care not to view things solely through the prism of the experience they've accrued. I think we can be too quick sometimes to forget what it was like when we were still smokers trying to quit, and what our priorities actually were at that time. If you'd handed me an eGo or a Provari when the inclination to quit smoking first struck me, I probably wouldn't have had much interest in it. I wouldn't have cared if it performed better or was more cost-effective than the alternative. I wanted something that looked and felt like a reasonable approximation of a cigarette.

 

[twgbonehead]

I think there's a very important factor you might be overlooking: people who are first making the transition generally want their e-cig experience to mimic their smoking experience as closely as possible, down to each little visual and tactile detail. As superior as second- and third-generation devices are, they can be ineffective for some people as a direct replacement for cigarettes, because the experience of smoking a cigarette is not being replicated to a sufficient degree.

Experienced vapers should take care not to view things solely through the prism of the experience they've accrued. I think we can be too quick sometimes to forget what it was like when we were still smokers trying to quit, and what our priorities actually were at that time. If you'd handed me an eGo or a Provari when the inclination to quit smoking first struck me, I probably wouldn't have had much interest in it. I wouldn't have cared if it performed better or was more cost-effective than the alternative. I wanted something that looked and felt like a reasonable approximation of a cigarette.

I went through the cigalikes a bit before I joined ECF. Automatic batteries, which died if you even slightly "overfilled" a cartridge. Gave up on it in disgust, but not after a LOT of trying to make it work. When my Wizard-stick finally stopped producing vapor, I gave up.

Several years later I met a co-worker who had a VV V3 and (somewhat reluctantly) let me try it. What a difference!!!!! Got me right back into the scene.

I remember back when I was a smoker trying to quit, believe me. I HATED the cigalikes, and jumped through a whole bunch of hoops to get something better, even back then. Handmade mods, Wizard-stick, I tried everything I could find at the time.

I have no disrespect for those who can quit with Blu, Vuse, or whatever. But I know for a fact that's not ME. (And to date, I've never had a vape as satisfying as a Wizard-stick when it was running well, no matter what the hardware was!)
I'm losing my point here. There's nothing wrong with cigalikes or people who use them and like them

There's an ENORMOUS amount wrong with decisions that "Well, since it works for some people we're going to eliminate the alternatives".

 

[Nate760]

I went through the cigalikes a bit before I joined ECF. Automatic batteries, which died if you even slightly "overfilled" a cartridge. Gave up on it in disgust, but not after a LOT of trying to make it work. When my Wizard-stick finally stopped producing vapor, I gave up.

Several years later I met a co-worker who had a VV V3 and (somewhat reluctantly) let me try it. What a difference!!!!! Got me right back into the scene.

I remember back when I was a smoker trying to quit, believe me. I HATED the cigalikes, and jumped through a whole bunch of hoops to get something better, even back then. Handmade mods, Wizard-stick, I tried everything I could find at the time.

I have no disrespect for those who can quit with Blu, Vuse, or whatever. But I know for a fact that's not ME. (And to date, I've never had a vape as satisfying as a Wizard-stick when it was running well, no matter what the hardware was!)
I'm losing my point here. There's nothing wrong with cigalikes or people who use them and like them

There's an ENORMOUS amount wrong with decisions that "Well, since it works for some people we're going to eliminate the alternatives".

For me, like I said before, it was around 2-3 weeks before I'd sufficiently broken the emotional attachment to cigarettes that I went from "smoking replacement" mode to "I want my vaping experience to be as enjoyable as possible" mode. But even now, though I'm far beyond the point of wanting to inhale cigarette smoke ever again, I still enjoy the tactile experience of handling something that resembles a cigarette, particularly when I'm driving.

I've actually had other vapers tell me, in complete seriousness, that because I still use cigalikes part of the time (and worse yet, because I enjoy the dreaded TOBACCO FLAVORS), that it's only a matter of time before I inevitably fall off the wagon and start smoking again. These people almost remind me of religious fundamentalists sometimes, so certain are they in the belief that your vaping experience must not ever resemble your former smoking experience in even the slightest detail, lest it's a foregone conclusion that you'll be dragged back into the fiery pit of the tobacco demons. I know their intentions are honorable, but they should really get a life.

 

[DaveP]

The ecig market is a free market at the moment. It's established and working quite well.

Big Tobacco wants people to stop at the store and buy packs of cartridges like they bought packs of cigarettes. That's not the way the ecig market works. We buy juice in bottles and fill our own tanks. That's what BT wants to outlaw. Coca-Cola wants to continue selling Coke in bottles and cans, not Kool-Aid and CO2 style mixes that allow people to make their own. Soda Stream wants to break into the drink monopoly and reverse the soda by the can model and allow people to make their own sodas at home. Seems to me that tilting the playing field can't work without upsetting other industries.

Our fate depends on whether BT can convince government that there's danger in sales of loosely packaged juices and some sort of problem with people refilling their own carts. If the market is fair, let the best method win. BT is too expensive and they know it. Personally, I think shrink wrapped bottle caps have stood the test of time for safety. I don't know how the child attraction will play into it. Kids still start smoking cigarettes without the fruit flavors that were banned.

If BT is worried about kids, maybe they should push for a 21 or Gone mandatory ID program at their participating retail outlets. The FDA is already cracking down.

Tobacco Retailers and the FDA

 

[frosting]

I think there's a very important factor you might be overlooking: people who are first making the transition generally want their e-cig experience to mimic their smoking experience as closely as possible, down to each little visual and tactile detail. As superior as second- and third-generation devices are, they can be ineffective for some people as a direct replacement for cigarettes, because the experience of smoking a cigarette is not being replicated to a sufficient degree.

Experienced vapers should take care not to view things solely through the prism of the experience they've accrued. I think we can be too quick sometimes to forget what it was like when we were still smokers trying to quit, and what our priorities actually were at that time. If you'd handed me an eGo or a Provari when the inclination to quit smoking first struck me, I probably wouldn't have had much interest in it. I wouldn't have cared if it performed better or was more cost-effective than the alternative. I wanted something that looked and felt like a reasonable approximation of a cigarette.

I think you're starting to make a lot of assumptions and underestimating experienced vapers and their knowledge in general. I'm not saying take cig-alikes off the market. I'm not saying the product is evil or serves no purpose. As we both agree, there are simply other items on the market which are higher powered and many people enjoy that are potentially in jeopardy of being taken off the market. ALL vaporizers should stay on the market(aside from the scams, but that's another topic) and all people should have the plethora of options we do today.


I am not here to argue, and as I already tried to put it kindly, my intention was not to "put down" anything. When I found the article itself I was rather angry about the information, which I would hope many here can understand. Vapers have to fight enough in general for their rights, the last place I want to have to deal with an argument is on ECF.

Can we all get along now?

 

[Nate760]

I think you're starting to make a lot of assumptions and underestimating experienced vapers and their knowledge in general. I'm not saying take cig-alikes off the market. I'm not saying the product is evil or serves no purpose. As we both agree, there are simply other items on the market which are higher powered and many people enjoy that are potentially in jeopardy of being taken off the market. ALL vaporizers should stay on the market(aside from the scams, but that's another topic) and all people should have the plethora of options we do today.

I wasn't taking issue with anything you said, I was just lamenting the fact that some hardcore vaping aficionados have become, in my opinion, too dogmatic and too arbitrary in their thinking, and they've become rather insufferable people in the process. I apologize if I failed to make that clear.

This thread's gotten me to thinking about my grandma. She smoked around two packs a day for 45 years, and decided to up and quit the day she turned 65 (she died just a few years ago at age 93, in more or less perfect health right up to the end). For the rest of her life, she was still rarely without a cigarette in her mouth or in her hand, she just never lit them. She'd go through all the same little rituals; taking a drag, pretending to tap the ash, setting it in the ashtray, the whole nine yards all day long. Once a year on her birthday, she'd light one up and smoke it for real, but aside from that she never smoked again. She always maintained that the chemical dependency wasn't that difficult to kick, but she couldn't imagine abandoning the physical machinations of the habit itself.

When she was 87 and it became no longer a good idea for her to live by herself, we moved her into an assisted-living place not far from where I live. The second or third day she was there, she calls me at work, practically in hysterics because they took her cigarettes away. I drive over there, and the head nurse explains to me that under the terms of the facility's smoke-free policy, no resident is permitted to have any tobacco product for any reason. After first explaining that there's a rather huge difference between a "smoke-free" policy and a blanket prohibition on any and all tobacco, I tried to explain that she never actually lights one, she just likes to hold it. Eventually I wind up in the office of the executive director, who was unwilling to allow any exception to the policy until I remarked that it would be a real shame if I had to call some of my former colleagues in the local media and tell them how this prominent nursing home was making little old ladies cry for no good reason.

In the end, I had to sign a waiver indemnifying the facility of responsibility should grandma manage to kill herself with an unlit Kent Ultra. But she got her cigarettes back.

 

[5cardstud]

I think a boycott of all vuze and Rj Reynolds products need to be called for their part in misleading and outright lying.

 

[DaveP]

BT is out to capture a market that's grown to a reported $4B in the last 5 or 6 years. Sure, they want to capture it and regulate small vendors out of the business. If all that the little guy can sell is a cig-a-like with a sealed cartridge, then none of us will want them.

I stood next to a Vuze glass front display yesterday at a Flash Foods checkout. They get $27.95 for a cig-alike with a couple of prefilled carts. A pack of spare carts was something like $17.95. We all know from the reports of new ECF members that those things don't last like a 30ml bottle of juice and a 5 pack of cartos.

So, how can BT compete? Well, they can compete by influencing legislators to condemn the product that works in flavor of the inferior one from BT. All we have to worry about is the future of bottled nic mixes for DIY. Batteries, mods, PG, VG, and atomizers don't fall under the regulation process from what I hear.

 

[TyPie]

It's become almost a matter of orthodoxy among vapers that people are inherently less likely to quit smoking if they use a certain type of vapor product (specifically, the cartomizer-style and disposable e-cigs commonly sold by the tobacco companies). Sometimes, as is now being done in this thread, it is asserted that the tobacco companies intentionally make inferior e-cig products so that users will be more likely to return to cigarettes. It should be noted, however, that no one has yet produced any evidence supporting either of these claims.

Moreover, my own experience, which I freely admit is anecdotal and in no way authoritative, gives me no reason to ascribe credibility to such assertions. I quit a 25-year cigarette habit, in a matter of 48 hours, armed with nothing but a Blu starter kit. It was a spur-of-the-moment impulse purchase, made solely out of curiosity, at my regular smoke shop. Until that moment, I had never had the slightest inclination to quit smoking. I enjoyed smoking, from the first day I did it right up until the last day. For reasons I can't explain, I walked in the smoke shop that afternoon to get a pack of Winstons, saw the Blu display on the counter, and decided maybe I'd give quitting a try. After a couple weeks, as most people do, I started broadening my horizons and using better products. But the fact remains that the little Blu starter kit performed well enough to get me off cigarettes, almost overnight, with hardly any suffering. If that display hadn't been there, there's a pretty strong likelihood I'd be sitting here with a smoldering cigarette in my hand today.

My sentiments exactly, and my experiences with Blu-cigs exactly (except I bought my starter kit on a whim at a Walgreens.)
I have moved on to other equipment, but may God bless Blu-cigs and pre-loaded Vivid Vanilla cartos. They very likely saved and extended my life.

Next, I feel I owe a debt of tremendous gratitude to Drew and Nhaler.com here in New Jersey, where I bought my first pieces of advanced equipment and supplies, and where I was exposed to his series of how-to videos for the first time on all the new toys and how to use them. After this, I was totally and completely hooked on my new hobby. (Sadly, we just lost Drew. He passed away just a week or so ago.)

In fact, I have come to acknowledge that I have to actually give CREDIT to the Blu cig-a-like form factor for driving me to other, more advanced equipment, which in turn, has KEPT me off the stinkies.

I'm all for whatever helps you QUIT, and whatever helps you stay OFF of the stinkies............

 

[Jman8]

Reynolds wants the playing field leveled. They see regulations as inevitable after having fought similar ones for decades and eventually losing (free market reign) and realizing that a good portion of the public demands 'science' be at the helm of whatever regulations are put forth. And after seeing that the public will seemingly ignore the political bias of that 'science.'

What Reynolds says it wants and what market Reynolds will end up in participating in seems vastly different, IMO. At same time, the doomsayers get the feedback they so desperately hold onto which appears to show BT is pulling the strings for Final Rule. As if Final Rule will dictate the totality of the market say 5 years from now. That would be the place where I and doomsayers part, while today we share the same bias and agree on about 80% of what's currently going on politically.