Low volume of vapor

[stols001]

Could you please cite a study on that? That's the kind of statement I'd really want a reference to, not a personal opinion. I also don't see how that could be studied if "people don't know it." Or how *you* could even identify it, if "people don't know it." We have some kind of silent OD on nicotine going on with e-cigs? Please explain. When I started vaping it was DL at 12 m.g. that was too high, and I definitely knew something was wrong.

I already explained the rationale of tapering with E-juice. So, to reiterate: You can do a step-down to nicotine only by eliminating combustion (tar) while still getting alkaloids, then taper off the WTA more slowly and precisely using WTA, which is what some folks still seem to prefer. You don't HAVE to taper with WTA, but it does seem to help some people succeed to switching to e-cigs more easily, it certainly did me. There are also people who use it routinely.

Anna

 

[Blinkyrocket]

I edit my comments a lot, mostly to add more to them

Some people didn't know it, that part is anecdotal. Also, it's possible for one person to not know something, while another person does know it. This is simply because being another person affords you an advantageous vantage point to observe the person who doesn't know it.

Aha, new generation devices provide double the nicotine older ones do, maybe this is why I can stand 12 mg without batting an eye. It's also why it makes me vape until I'm sick, I don't feel anything until after like a few hours, I'm overdosing. Studies show that, at least for regular smoking, low nicotine cigarette smoking is compensated for by deeper inhalation and higher cigarette count, plasma levels of all relevant chemicals being the same in smokers of high and low nic.

BTW, when I say overdose I just mean the point where you feel ill, nauseated, and have a splitting headache. Yawning is a symptom as well.

Also, you are right about substantially lower nicotine absorption. I guess that means that the symptoms those people had weren't nicotine toxicity but had something to do with the lack of Harmala alkaloids.

 

[Blinkyrocket]

I saw your edited comments. If people don't know it, how is it anecdotal? How are people coming up to you and saying, "By the way, I didn't notice this, but apparently I'm O'ding on nicotine, but I can't tell?" C'mon. That's a ridiculous statement. If YOU have OD'd yourself on nicotine without knowing it, that would be anecdotal. It's also a logical fallacy, as if you'd od'd yourself on nicotine and weren't aware of it, how could you anecdotally report it?

I am aware of the benefits of both nicotine in the brain as well as some of the alkaloids. There are some benefits, the main ones being increased focus, particularly if you have ADHD, and reduced depression, due to MAOIs, typically weaker than MAOI antidepressants, or at least slightly different. The thing is, the brain achieves homeostasis so while some smokers may experience depression or low energy transitioning to vaping, unless they have an underlying disorder, the brain will re-regulate itself and return to homeostasis. If you have multiple family members with Alzheimer's or Parkinson's, maybe WTA might help SLIGHTLY more than just nicotine, though it's debatable, as just nicotine itself also has a somewhat robust benefit that's proven, as well.

I'm also really shocked that you know *this* much "about nicotine vs WTA" if you can't even identify your own vape device? I mean use WTA if you want, but please don't claim to know all facts about WTA and nicotine because you don't. No one actually does. REASONABLE studies of vaping are still fairly new, and researchers often make user error due to unfamiliarity with the device. There are things known about JUST nic, there are things known about JUST tobacco, but WTA is almost completely unstudied, as far as I can see. So making grandiose claims for it is relying on the fact that it performs "identically" in the brain without combustion, which is not a claim you can really make.

Anna

They're not coming up to me, I'm watching them.... Reread my edited comment, maybe you'll understand if you give it a couple more goes. I hope you take that as self-deprecation, I'm not very understandable.

Also, I claimed to not know very much about vaping. You're making quite a lot of stuff up.
My whole point was "why switch from WTA to nicotine" if WTA has more alkaloids and nicotine, it's essentially nicotine plus a few extra gifts. Money could be a reason why not, could've said that.

It's very interesting to watch people paint you as the villian when there's no evidence that you actually did or said any of the things that the people accused you of... They just go on a gut feeling that whatever I say is a personal attack on them and their knowledge, as if having a certain amount of knowledge actually makes you smart and "better". It's not an insult to someone's intelligence to not know something, in fact, not knowing something is what paves the way to finding it out.... Idk if that makes a ton of sense or no sense.

When I mentioned the difference between nicotine and WTA, there is one error, the fact that vaping does not produce abundant plasma levels of nicotine and possibly the other alkaloids as well. However, the main point I was making was about rapidly spiking brain levels of those alkaloids, if people who use WTA can be proven to statistically vape less then my assumption might be correct, that brain levels spike more often in people who use nicotine only, thereby having more of an effect on c-FOS induction. This is just based on my knowledge of addictive drugs causing c-FOS induction and that speed of drug delivery is what most potently drives addictiveness to that drug.

Smoking obviously is the most dependence forming out of the three options then, for sure.


http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2000-15775-054
Relation between nicotine intake and Alzheimer's disease. | The BMJ
Smoking, nicotine and Parkinson's disease - ScienceDirect

 

[Blinkyrocket]

Blinkyrocket, I don't want this to get out of hand, so I'm going to cede the discussion. I will re-read an edited post for clarity, but I'm not going to pore over one repeatedly in order to prove or disprove an argument. If you feel that anecdotally, you've "noticed" nic overload in others, great. Glad you were able to help. Again, I was merely providing the (multiple) reasons why people may want to transition off WTA.

I don't believe that nic overload or poisoning is at all widespread or dangerous, given the former political climate and scientific research on e-cigs, I'm quite certain we would have heard about it more. Most people who get nic overload even once are able to identify that something is wrong and seek out more information on their own. I'm also unclear how one can "observe" a headache, nausea or even yawning as a culprit, if the person happens to be tired. As I am... now.... of this discussion. If you were able to help out a nic overloaded person while they were vaping, great. Good for you, good for them. Enjoy your WTA as well, if you feel it gives you better added value. That's why vaping's fantastic, and customizable to the person.

Best of luck!

Anna

I was lying somewhat about the nicotine overdose, I don't actually remember exactly where I heard it, some article I think. [Also, you don't observe those symptoms, you see that the person is shaking or sweating and then ask them about it. After a little bit of mental gymnastics and detective work you find out it might be the nicotine.]

Why is that the central focus of what I said though?

 

[DaveP]

Blinkyrocket wrote:
I don't know if this has been gone over before but I have an Apollo vape pen (would have to dig to find out which model, but probably the cheapest) and I just get dismally small volumes of smoke when I use it, just pitiful. Do I need a new vape pen if I want to get those gloriously voluptuous, billowy smoke clouds?
I'm pretty sure the liquid I'm using is 50/50.

FWIW, MTL devices are for people who want to recreate the act of smoking a cigarette, but without the tars and dangers of smoking. DTL devices are designed for people who want clouds of vapor.

MTL may require higher nic levels in the juice just because there's less juice vaporized in a single hit. DTL generally dictates lower nic levels just because you are consuming more juice in a hit.

That said, most of us drop nic levels over time as we wean ourselves from the nic levels we got when we smoked. I started at 24mg/ml strength. After a couple of years I started to titrate downward and finally ended up at 3mg/ml strength. At no time did I experience nic withdrawal.

If you want bigger clouds you need an atomizer that features high airflow and a low resistance coil that's large enough to vaporize more juice at higher wattage. Lots of people like the Kanger Subtank. There's lots of choice in tanks and mods for subohm vaping.

You'll find that with cloud vaping you'll want to lower your nic. The bigger the clouds, the more juice you vaporize with each hit and the more nic you inhale. 3mg/ml seems to be a common nic level for sub-ohmers.

 

[Blinkyrocket]

Actually I neither dislike or like you. I'm noting from your pic that you are fairly young, if that's you, so I'm going to point out something that you may not have learned as yet. You can dislike a behavior in a person (reediting comments out of a need to feel "okay" about something and/or to bolster an argument, claiming others haven't read your posts, while not reading the other person's (I mentioned WTA COST as a reason in my FIRST POST, I did start out "just by saying that.") Posting erroneous or unverifiable information that invites scare tactics concerning nicotine overload being a "hidden" epidemic in vaping, etc, etc, ad hominem attacks) you can dislike those BEHAVIORS and not dislike the PERSON. I merely repeatedly requested that you cite information backing up your claims. I don't dislike OR like you, I feel fairly neutral in fact.

I'm a trained social worker and therapist, though, so swear to GOD, if you cite snowflake human psychology at me, I'm going to have a meltdown. That is NOT how all human behavior works, some of it is motivated by entirely other factors, such as a desire to NOT have MORE erroneous fallacies floating around about the risks and dangers of vaping that are either untrue, or at least cannot be backed up by verifiable facts or research. THAT is my current and ONLY motivation, at this point.

Anna

It's called choice-supportive bias, sort of works the same way with people. I wasn't using scare tactics, or bolstering an argument by re-editing arguments. I re-edit them for the first reason. You requested information for the claims that didn't matter. What actually mattered was the nicotine brain levels and the rapid spike etc. If I was right about people vaping more nicotine when switching from tobacco, it would provide even more proof for my theory. Being wrong about that part doesn't completely detract from the theory I was actually making. Only if people consumed less WTA than nicotine would my theory have a leg to support itself.

 

[Marc411]

Well this thread took an interesting turn. It looks like you have a bit more knowledge on vaping than a person that recently started. It also appears that you are looking for more information outside of a mod that doesn't produce enough vapor.

So what is the real reason you came to the site because your first post morphed into a debate on nicotine usage and the discussion on how to improve your vaping experience kind of fell apart.

Interesting first post.

 

[OlderNDirt]

How did this go from "low volume of smoke" to WTA's, "choice-supportive bias", "nicotine brain levels", "rapid spikes", and "proof for my theory?"

 

[Marc411]

Hidden motives and agenda to engage folks using vaping as a source of harm reduction.

It went from a thread for help to someone saying he was inexperienced and by his later posts seems to be pretty knowledgeable.

Interesting turn of events for a first time poster.

 

[DaveP]

We all eventually end up with a device we like and enjoy. Probing for info and taking the advice of more experienced users usually results in less money spent to find the right hardware.

That said, everyone has their own favorite hardware and juice. One person's favorite may not suit everyone.

 

[Blinkyrocket]

Well this thread took an interesting turn. It looks like you have a bit more knowledge on vaping than a person that recently started. It also appears that you are looking for more information outside of a mod that doesn't produce enough vapor.

So what is the real reason you came to the site because your first post morphed into a debate on nicotine usage and the discussion on how to improve your vaping experience kind of fell apart.

Interesting first post.

One of the reasons I joined was to comment on a thread about nicotine and yawning, but the thread was closed. So, I made a new thread detailing what I thought the yawning might be caused by: Cholinergic excitation. Nicotine "hits" Nicotinic Acetylcholinergic receptors and also raises endorphins, and, upon withdrawal, decreases opioid receptor activity, of course. Both of these things cause cholinergic excitation and, hence, yawning. After that, I decided I wanted to figure out why my vape pen was crappy, lol, and the best new vape things (what would a good universal vape "utensil" be called nowadays?) to look at and consider buying.

 

[Letitia]

And your doing an extraordinary job at it.

Welcome to the site

 

[Blinkyrocket]

In plain words, what exactly is your intent?

My intent was to get the model number of the vape pen, and info on what controls vapor production. Probably could've googled it but because I had already signed up, and wanted the human interaction -And since I've had agoraphobia for maybe 4 or 5 years, stuck in the house and all that, terrifying panic attacks and whatnot- I decided to make a thread about it. This is also the reason why I was willing to go off topic, I just wanted to freakin' talk to people.

 

[Blinkyrocket]

All this was after I said that I was, in fact, wrong about people "OD'ing" on nicotine. I didn't even mean that as a serious point, it was just to bolster a point I was making that I was actually serious about which was the possible difference in induction of dependence between pure nicotine and WTA, even if it was small. Even then, it was just a theory, if I knew some idiots would interpret what I say as what I believe to be true wholeheartedly, I would've reworded my post for clarification. And, the rest isn't that bad but funny, she thought I believed that pure nicotine was "unclean" or "forbidden" or something, insinuating from the way she "said" it. She also thought I was saying people should only vape WTA, I was wondering why someone would switch from WTA to nicotine as if it wasn't the superior option. I answered my own question before posting that. But, money never was a problem for me because I very rarely spend it on eLiquids or anything containing nicotine really, it's just a treat I like to get myself at random times.

 

[Letitia]

#1 Having agoraphobia is no excuse for rudeness.
#2 We like conversation here, not confrontation.

So let's start over... Hello Blinkyrocket, welcome to ECF.

 

[Blinkyrocket]

#1 Having agoraphobia is no excuse for rudeness.
#2 We like conversation here, not confrontation.

So let's start over... Hello Blinkyrocket, welcome to ECF.

I don't trust you.... And, while I don't view rudeness as good, I don't view it as bad either. Experiencing true misery does that to you. And yes, I'm slightly aggrandizing my own tragedy
But only slightly.

Thanks for the welcome though. I don't want to delete this thread but most likely shouldn't keep talking in it.

Also, I love confrontation, I think I have an addiction to confronting people and arguing with them. I do it with my family and friends and it really strains my relationships. I have a desperate need to have someone know my thought process, what I have to deal with in my own mind every day.

Also, the distrust is preliminary and not meant as an offense, I sometimes recognize that the way I behave and act is a little more.... honest than most people are used to.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

Welcome to the forum, it is full of helpful friendly folks.

If cloudz are you're goal, a pen style power device & old school clearomizer isn't going to provide that.
You've been given some good suggestions on upgrading your vaping equipment.
I Stick Pico & the Melo 3 it comes with in kit form will do, if you prefer more of a MTL vape nautilus full size or mini or nautilus 2 or x may work.

As far as the nicotine talk goes, everyone's body has differing absorption rates, nicotine effects everyone slightly differently, different delivery devices are more or less efficient at converting liquid into vapor.
More vapor produced more liquid consumed, more liquid inhaled = more of whatever is in your liquid being introduced into you body.

Just like some folks have at least sensitivities to, up to allergic reactions from one or more of the liquid ingredients there are no hard fast rules, no way for anyone to say what or how you will react to anything.
Especially for someone with anxiety / panic attack disorder.
Probably best to ask the doctor(s) treating your conditions their advice on the nicotine / wta questions.

I have a sensitivity to high % VG liquids, so I keep it near 50/50, I've tried WTA many times, it doesn't agree with my system at all so I don't use or recommend it.

If you don't already have a dependance on nicotine (from years of tobacco use) and have no medical reason to use nicotine, I think it beyond silly to start one.
As is moving goal posts in a conversation morphing it into more silliness on topics that are body chemistry unique to each individual I suppose trying to find some kind of gotcha.

Bottom line, your conversation style/tactics makes folks question your sincerity & motives.
No reason for folks to throw names around or get their undergarments all bunched up.

Seems you're failing to grasp how your words & style of conversation fall on others ears / are interpreted.

Walking around with the ' I'm confrontational' chip on your shoulder has clouded your sensibility detector.

 

[Blinkyrocket]

Welcome to the forum, it is full of helpful friendly folks.

If cloudz are you're goal, a pen style power device & old school clearomizer isn't going to provide that.
You've been given some good suggestions on upgrading your vaping equipment.
I Stick Pico & the Melo 3 it comes with in kit form will do, if you prefer more of a MTL vape nautilus full size or mini or nautilus 2 or x may work.

As far as the nicotine talk goes, everyone's body has differing absorption rates, nicotine effects everyone slightly differently, different delivery devices are more or less efficient at converting liquid into vapor.
More vapor produced more liquid consumed, more liquid inhaled = more of whatever is in your liquid being introduced into you body.

Just like some folks have at least sensitivities to, up to allergic reactions from one or more of the liquid ingredients there are no hard fast rules, no way for anyone to say what or how you will react to anything.
Especially for someone with anxiety / panic attack disorder.
Probably best to ask the doctor(s) treating your conditions their advice on the nicotine / wta questions.

I have a sensitivity to high % VG liquids, so I keep it near 50/50, I've tried WTA many times, it doesn't agree with my system at all so I don't use or recommend it.

If you don't already have a dependance on nicotine (from years of tobacco use) and have no medical reason to use nicotine, I think it beyond silly to start one.
As is moving goal posts in a conversation morphing it into more silliness on topics that are body chemistry unique to each individual I suppose trying to find some kind of gotcha.

Bottom line, your conversation style/tactics makes folks question your sincerity & motives.
No reason for folks to throw names around or get their undergarments all bunched up.

Seems you're failing to grasp how your words & style of conversation fall on others ears / are interpreted.

Walking around with the ' I'm confrontational' chip on your shoulder has clouded your sensibility detector.

Sensibility detector? Yes, I don't understand (I do understand, just distance myself from) most social conventions, including ways of talking. My way of talking is that when I say something that seems like an insult, it's not, because, ultimately, I don't believe that most people's usual insults are actually bad, like "......". I used that word earlier but it's rare for me to just use an insult like that because I normally consider the fact that almost no one can truly be called an "......" due to too many factors about that persons life. I guess with everything else, just assume I have high functioning autism, or Aspergers, cuz apparently I do have Asperger's, although I'd say that my isolation from humanity is what causes my autism like social symptoms.

What I mean by not thinking some insults are bad is just that they can't be proven to be true. Like the whole bit I was doing with the "a-holes" And "butthole sphincters" it's absolutely ridiculous because it can't be proven, in fact, it's demonstrably untrue.
So, the reason I was rude like that is that I guess no one's perfect and it really, REALLY hits my buttons when I feel like I've been falsely accused of something. Especially because so many people always misunderstand my style of communication.
For some reason my text wont change back from bolded and italicized...

 

[Coastal Cowboy]

Three recommendations for you. First, a true MTL (mouth to lung) kit aimed at people who want to vape just like they smoked. Charge it, fill it, vape it:

$32.24 Authentic Innokin Endura T22 Starter Kit - 4.5ml / 1.5ohm / stainless steel + glass + aluminum alloy at FastTech - Worldwide Free Shipping

Second, a more advanced system that will require you to buy batteries and a charger to go with it. This is a versatile system that will let you try either MTL or DL (direct lung) vaping:

$38.96 Authentic Eleaf iStick Pico Kit w/ MELO III Clearomizer (Brushed Silver) - 4ml / 0.3/0.5ohm / 1-75W / 100-315'C(200-600'F) / 1*18650 at FastTech - Worldwide Free Shipping

Third is a kit that many here like for MTL but also with the ability to do DL (not perfectly, but not bad either; can always swap tanks).

$43.85 Authentic Aspire Zelos 50W 2500mAh VV VW TC APV Mod Kit - 2ml / 0.7ohm / 1-50W / 0.5V-8.0V / 100-315'C(200-600'F) / aluminum at FastTech - Worldwide Free Shipping

The Endura and Zelos are internal battery mods charged only with USB. The Pico takes a separately sold 18650 battery. It can be charged via USB, but a standalone charger is best.

So, @Blinkyrocket ... which one of these suits your fancy?

If you need some recommendations on tasty liquids, hit me up, bro.

 

[Blinkyrocket]

So, @Blinkyrocket ... which one of these suits your fancy?

If you need some recommendations on tasty liquids, hit me up, bro.

I was going to look at the one in the middle. The eLeaf. Is that the box mod one? I guess i should try pure nicotine liquids at some point since the whole start of this crap was about the difference between nicotine and WTA.
I actually don't even know how large the difference in price is.