Mod with Safety issues???

[Rocketman]

especially useless since we know very clearly now that the batteries can swell and block the tube, causing gas pressure to rise at the top of the tube and blow the top end off.

Roly, can you point me to any evidence that steel cased Li-ion cells swell? To swell a cylinder it seems you would have to build up enough internal pressure that the hoop stress exceeded the yield of the material. If the cell vented inside a sealed PV the cell internal pressure would be about the same as the internal pressure of the PV with zero differential.


An eGo style battery can swell, but it's a mylar pouch.

Rifle cartridges swell and can be 'fire formed', but that is brass, and 20000 to 50000 PSI.
(even some of my hot 357 handloads are a little difficult to extract )

 

[rolygate]

@mark
Yes, it had an inaugural meeting to discuss concepts two weeks ago, and has its first full board meeting and project discussion tonight.

@Salky
It's little more than a concept right now, and the membership certainly isn't decided. In theory it is a group of vendors, community reps and technicians, with equal representation, who want to do something about product safety issues before governments do it for us.

Once the board has a full membership and something concrete has been decided, then full details will be published on the website. Right now it's just a bunch of ideas, so very little can be said about it other than it seems an excellent idea. Exactly who is going to be involved, and what they will do, is fluid right now.

There is also a very important issue that the board members of a testing & approvals organization need to be fully legally protected, and, realistically, nothing will be done until that is in place.

There are a bunch of us kicking ideas around presently, and in order that you know who holds the current assets, I hold the domain name and Kevin Burke at ECA (E-Cig Advanced - the guy who does the interviews with medics, tobacco CEOs etc that you might have seen) holds the website. Those assets will be transferred to the board once it is set up properly. Several vendors are involved, and several technicians in the electronics, materials safety and hazmat areas. The prospects for such an organization look extremely bright because there is a weight of feeling in the community and trade that an independent group takes on this job before government does (and also removes ECF from the equation as well).

However the technical, legal and financial challenges are considerable. If you think of the issues that face such a board, you can see that it won't be an easy ride. It's a question of if you agree that something needs to be done, and if it should be done by us rather than government - if you agree with that, then in practice there is only one way to do it: set up our own product safety board. If it can be equally balanced between the various groups, and if it clearly does the right things, then it will work.

The feeling presently is that the board should just go out and test products without being asked by manufacturers and vendors, although they will also be able to submit products for rating. That way, the community will get a clear idea of how products rate for safety, which is the main issue right now both for buyers and also all our critics. There will be some pain, without doubt, but if you look at every other consumer product you can see that they have to comply with basic standards. At present nobody in the US is testing products and that leaves us open to attack, since there are obvious issues here.

In the UK, being a small place that is easily administered, they have local product testing authorities that take away, inspect and analyse products, called the Trading Standards departments. For that reason, it is not possible to say, in the UK, that e-cigarette products are unregulated or untested - because there are local government authorities who do that for all consumer products sold, and they are paying special attention to ecig products at the moment. In the US we are extremely vulnerable to accusations that ecig products are untested and unregulated (and therefore possibly dangerous or toxic), and something needs to be done about this before others do it for us. It's also better that experts look at these product issues instead of government appointees who know nothing about the real issues.

 

[Rocketman]

Serious post:
I hope all this pressure (no pun intended) on the manufacturers and resellers will drive them to publish technical details in their advertisements such as a list of everything they consider to be a safety feature that the model offered includes.
Including, in print, which cell combinations are valid, and which would be considered 'not recommended'.
And, why not some I.D. and wall thickness dimensions?

 

[rolygate]

@Rocketman
I think the best evidence for swollen batteries is the several examples of rocket-mode failures fully documented on ECF (although several have been removed since they were on vendor forums). To be specific:

- In these events, the batteries went thermal and the device might well have exploded, except they had bottom end caps that blew off.

- Unprotected Li-ion cells were probably being used, whatever it said on the battery label.

- The reports say that flames issued from the bottom end of the device for 20 to 30 seconds.

- The devices shot off round the room due to the gas pressure exiting the bottom end, very much like a rocket. Fires were started where the device contacted flammable materials for several seconds, such as sofas and carpets.

- In one report, the device set fire to one room, and while shooting around, went through a door and set fire to the next room.

I feel it is very likely that the batteries swelled up enough to jam in the tube - since there must have been sufficient gas pressure to eject them, if that were not the case. There are also other incidents where the batteries were ejected in an explosive event. Photos and accounts can be found where the batteries were subsequently examined and had clearly swollen up.

I think that, with examination, at least one incident could be found where the device exploded, blowing the top end off, even though there was a bottom vent hole or endcap.

There is an interesting feature of these events where some seem to be instant, and some seem to be protracted. Nobody currently knows the answers to any of the questions raised by these incidents, it would require thousands of dollars to test the various theories by destroying dozens of batteries and APVs in a lab.

It seems that the most likely way to achieve a dangerous incident is to take two RC123-size small batteries that are primary cells (non-rechargeable 'camera batteries' - basic unprotected Li-ion regular batteries), charge them by mistake (and maybe in a faulty charger), then when they are charged (whatever that might mean for primary cells), and while they are still 'hot' immediately put them in series in a metal tubemod that takes one 18650 or two small cells, with no electronics, and hit the button. There are two or three examples of that, that we know of: instant big bang. In that particular set of circumstances the cells might not even have time to swell - it seems they actually explode instantly.

So there are probably different failure scenarios, and no one 'rule' that can be applied.

 

[markfm]

Roly, thanks for the info. Perhaps the "More" tab could link to a blog/news page on the site, where at least informal information is captured.

 

[hmlessalky]

Thanks for the info as well Roly. I just found it odd that there was not anything but pictures and ideas on the page; usually if it is a page under construction there is a link to some sort of info, or that info is placed on the main page, no matter how brief. Plus, whois shielding is used in many situations; unfortunately, a large number of them are due to some sort of shady operation. It wouldn't be hard for me to get a site like PVSSA.org (Personal Vaporizer Standards and Safety Association, I like that!) and use it for less than honorable actions.

Once again, thanks for clearing that up, I hope we can come up with a self-regulatory board that is fair and strong enough to be able to spread the word and keep big brother at bay for as long as possible.

Salky

 

[rolygate]

Yes. I don't want to be listed in Whois as the owner, because I'm just holding it for the Treasurer or Trustee who will hold the assets. And, once the board membership is finalized, that will be published anyway.

 

[zoiDman]

As Roly and Others have mentioned, in a Catastrophic Battery Failure, there can be Swelling of the Batteries. And the Internal Materials which make up a Battery May Restrict Gas Movement to either a Vent Hole or a Slot.

These pictures are in No Way indicative of the way All Batteries can Fail, only how these Batteries Failed in this Mod.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/gg/64570-gg-safety-tested-proved.html


Of course a Mod should be Vented. But it would seem that Venting should be considered as the Last Line of Defense.

I read that gotvapes has been contacted by the Telscope OEM about types of Fuses that are being considered. I would like to hear more Opinions on what types ways to Minimize Catastrophic Battery Failure via such Electrical Circuitry/Fuses.

Because I am Not Convinced that a Mod can be Manufactures with Venting that will be 100% “Safe” under all types of Battery Failures.

 

[zoiDman]

BTW – I have a MAG Flashlight that uses 3 Stacked Batteries.

It works Underwater and Clearly Fails the SenseField “Balloon Test”. Yet I haven’t heard an Uproar over it being Unsafe.

Is a Staked Battery Flashlight which has No Vent Holes considered “Safe” because it uses a Different type of Batteries? Or is there something else inside of it that I don’t Know About?

 

[markfm]

I use sealed flashlights diving, but they don't draw that much current. A big D8 incandescent unit only has a 14 watt Xenon bulb, while a C8 runs 10.6W. (nominal 9.6V, 8 x 1.2V in series, though you can also use 1.5V cells)

I've never heard of a MAGlite being used underwater, though they're pretty water resistant. I use Princeton Tec.

 

[Rocketman]

Zoid,
is that the GG that vented flames out the bottom holes?
Flew off the table and ended up over by the couch, and even burnt the carpet?
I find it hard to believe that a swelled cell, blocking off gas release will still be able to pass gas out the bottom cap and rocket around the room. It's blocked or it ain't.

If it's eGo types rocketing around the room, that's different. They have a folded Mylar wrapper around the cell.
It will swell.

How much energy does it take to toss a 4 to 6oz PV 20 to 30 feet?
A rubber band gun will do it.
Rocketing around the room?
I'm used to hobby rockets that get up to 200mph.


What type of thrust would be required to send a PV off a 30" high table and send it like a rocket across a room (unless it was an auditorium). Oh, and then stop.
A model rocket is considered underpowered and thus unsafe it it isn't traveling 45mph by the time it leaves the 3 foot launch guide.


Took off like a rocket, sounded like a bomb, blew the top off. Well that last one IS something to worry about.

 

[Rocketman]

BTW – I have a MAG Flashlight that uses 3 Stacked Batteries.

It works Underwater and Clearly Fails the SenseField “Balloon Test”. Yet I haven’t heard an Uproar over it being Unsafe.

Is a Staked Battery Flashlight which has No Vent Holes considered “Safe” because it uses a Different type of Batteries? Or is there something else inside of it that I don’t Know About?

Does it use 3 stacked Li-ion cells. There are some lights available that do.

 

[zoiDman]

Zoid,
is that the GG that vented flames out the bottom holes?

...

I put the link below the Pictures if you want to read the Entire Thread.

There are also Many More Picture.

 

[Rocketman]

Already did, long time ago.

 

[zoiDman]

Does it use 3 stacked Li-ion cells. There are some lights available that do.

I can't remember if it came with Ni-Mh Batteries or No Batteries at all.

It is currently running Rechargeable Ni-Mh “C” size Batteries.

The reason I asked was I can’t Remember Hearing of a Flashlight Blowing Up. And Every Flashlight I own, 7 total, can’t pass the SenseField Balloon Test.

Just wondering why No One seems to be concerned about Stacked Battery Flashlights but there are over 500 post in 3 days regarding that Telescope Mod?

I thought there was a mention about Amps but I can’t find it.

 

[zoiDman]

Already did, long time ago.

Then why did you ask?

 

[markfm]

D8 dive light is under 1.5a draw off the 8 stacked batteries. They use standard rechargeables (not lithium).

 

[Rocketman]

Zoid,
Just pointing out the the gas passage did not seem to get all blocked up. Even with all the crud and tight fitting cells (not a lot of room inside with 16mm cells). The three little holes vented like crazy and sent the PV probably about 20 feet. The cells still seem to have a nice cylindrical shape, although one does seem to have a different style crimp.

The energy necessary to rocket a top cap and atty down someones throat is a lot less that that required to rocket the whole mod. Try the rubber band and PV trick. See how far you can make one go.

 

[Rocketman]

Alkaline, NiMH, Nicad devices are not related to the issues being discussed.



(yes I know, even a rock can explode)

 

[zoiDman]

D8 dive light is under 1.5a draw off the 8 stacked batteries. They use standard rechargeables (not lithium).

Thanks markfm

So is it that Standard Rechargable Batteries don't Vent if they Fail? So they don't cause a Flashlight to Explode when they fail?

Or is it that the Flashlight is Drawing Less Amps than a Stacked Battery PV?

Or Perhaps Both.