Mod with Safety issues???

[rolygate]

One of the guys at CPF calculated they have a serious battery failure event for 1 in 1,600 flashlights with lithium cells.

I don't think any other type of cells are involved.

 

[zoiDman]

One of the guys at CPF calculated they have a serious battery failure event for 1 in 1,600 flashlights with lithium cells.

I don't think any other type of cells are involved.

Yes... I’ve been doing some research on Flashlights using Li-ion. And there are some examples of them Experiencing Catastrophic Failures. Whereas I can't find much about Ni-Mh powered Flashlight Problem

I'm starting to understand more about Ni-Mh batteries and their Chemistry.

I also didn’t consider that each Individual “C” Ni-Mh Battery in my Flashlight is a Much Lower Voltage than an Individual Battery in a Stacked Battery mod.

 

[zoiDman]

It’s funny in a Way.

I joined the ECF way back when to Learn about e-Cigarettes. Now, about 2 years later, I feel I have gained enough knowledge to go back and pass all those 1st year Electrical Engineering Classes.

LOL

 

[Rocketman]

Forums are a great place to learn.
Even from the crazy folks over on CPF

Your Nimh cells in your light (or in your PV) are much more tolerant of abuse, and the chemistry is more forgiving when they do fail. Just not as compact a power sourch as Li-ion.

(Btw stacking 10 10,000mah, D size Nimh cells works pretty well )

http://i965.photobucket.com/albums/ae132/rocketman_photos/Home Made Flashlights/BiggerLight.jpg

But Li-ion makes for a more compact device.
(3S2P, double triples, 26650)
http://i965.photobucket.com/albums/ae132/rocketman_photos/Home Made Flashlights/anotherlight-1.jpg

 

[markfm]

Totally different chemistry in a rechargeable nimh, plus that is a small current compared to the battery capacity. The nimh d cells run 2500 - 10000 mAh, typical rating 5C, so running them at 1.5A is no biggie.

 

[zoiDman]

Forums are a great place to learn.
Even from the crazy folks over on CPF

...

I've go there from time to time to read things.

The difference with the ECF and the CPF is on the ECF, everyone is a Vaper and only Few are Battery Experts. Where on the CPF, Every one seems to be a Battery Expert and on a Few Vape.

Much of what is discused on the CPF goes over my head. And I can't ask silly Newbie type questions.

Totally different chemistry in a rechargeable nimh, plus that is a small current compared to the battery capacity. The nimh d cells run 2500 - 10000 mAh, typical rating 5C, so running them at 1.5A is no biggie.

Yes. I'm starting to Understand what the differences are of Battery Chemistries and the Relationship of "C" Rating to Amps.

 

[markfm]

That is how we all learn, bit of reading, ask questions. I'm an engineer, but the ins and outs of little batteries were of no concern to me until I started vaping.

 

[Uma]

I put the link below the Pictures if you want to read the Entire Thread.

There are also Many More Picture.

Thanks for bringing this thread up. This thread appeared when I was offline for several months and totally missed it. Fascinating read.

 

[zoiDman]

Thanks for bringing this thread up. This thread appeared when I was offline for several months and totally missed it. Fascinating read.

No Problem Uma.

I thought it was interesting also. And the saying of a Picture is worth a 1,000 words rings true when it came to this mod Melting down.

 

[Uma]

(clip)
Once again, thanks for clearing that up, I hope we can come up with a self-regulatory board that is fair and strong enough to be able to spread the word and keep big brother at bay for as long as possible.

Salky

I second this!

Sidenote: Don't let the buggers get ya down Roly, you've done a fantastic job of bringing vapers and modders together under one roof. It's bound to get "impossible" at times. Thanks for all your hard work and dedication. We'd be totally lost without you and ecf. (((((( Roly )))))

 

[Racehorse]

With one battery, and if you know it's a genuine IMR, then there isn't that much need to worry. All explosions have been in metal tubemods with two cells in series and no electronics. If it's not a tube, or has one battery inserted, or has some electronics, then statistically there is no need for concern as there is no history of explosive events.

If it's a boxmod or something then statistically there is no issue.

I'm only a little ways thru battery university.......I'm afraid having zero electronics background, I'm not sure I have the comprehension to understand some of it, so bear with me and explain like "Batteries for Dummies" book.

Why are the single batt and/or in box mod not "statistically" at issue?

 

[rolygate]

No problem

It's because the reports of explosions and similar events are all for metal tube APVs, with two cells in, and no electronics. So 'statistically' this is where the danger is. You might notice that I am implying that although this is where the significant events have occurred, perhaps one day some other type of device will also experience an incident - we don't know.

Realistically, there isn't enough history to be sure. Since single battery meltdowns have occurred in many types of devices, even those with the most expensive pricetags, theoretically if a device is perfectly gastight then there is also a risk. At present we think that a single battery is unlikely to produce enough gas, fast enough, to rupture a metal casing - but that's only a guess based on eight documented incidents and several more heard third-hand over four years. That isn't really sufficient information to go on.

So although we know that twin-cell metal tubes with no electronic controls are the danger area, one day some other set of circumstances might result in an incident. To be safe, it is a good idea to buy the most expensive batteries you can get; have substantial gas vents in your device and certainly at the top end; and have any other safety features you can get your hands on. If using a two-cell device then these conditions are quite important. If using a boxmod or a single-cell device, perhaps not - you must decide.

 

[Racehorse]

and have any other safety features you can get your hands on.

I guess as little as I know, it makes no sense to me why, for less than the price of a small bottle of juice, anyone wouldn't use a fuse if using two cells. It also makes no sense to me that any mod would be manufactured that didn't have enough space inside to lay a fuse in.

The topics on fuses available get very little play on the forum, I've noticed, but an uber-expensive new mod, that costs 15 times more than the price of a simple fuse, does.

I worked in corporate settings where they were too cheap to even have a back-up server in their rack....or any kind of redundancy. (ie. huge bank processing center). As a matter of fact, there is an assisted living facility where I live who is in that position, though they are dealing with quite a lot of medical critical communications. It just makes me shake my head. Yet, they would always call in a tech when everything stopped......which in the long-run, probably costs a lot more,not to mentioned frayed nerves, middle of the night calls, etc.

 

[Racehorse]

Laptop batteries have quite a lot of protections, yet they are not things I hold up close to my face, mouth, eyes, nose, and i.e., critical sensory body parts.

 

[rolygate]

It's just human nature.

When you buy a new car you probably spend a lot of time choosing one for its looks. Hardly any time (or none) is spent looking up its crash survival rating.

It's why someone else needs to sort that out for you otherwise you'd still be driving something that incinerates the passengers in a shunt. Car manufacturers fought for years to avoid building in safety features, it's just standard behavior.

 

[markfm]

Though a different domain, part of new user education is understanding that even single battery proprietary PV (e.g., fat battery 510 such as the eGo/Riva series) can have interesting problems, though the ones I've read about are related to incidents during charging. Whether it's a problem in the PV side circuitry, the charger, or a random spike occurring on the 120 volt power input to the charger, fat battery units have done bad things, PV launching off of the charger. (bad overcharge condition of some kind, battery vents, the press-fit 510 connector stays on the charger while the rest of the PV goes in the opposite direction)

("proprietary" as used here just means non-user-changeable battery)

Whether using a charging bag (which still needs to sit on a fire proof surface), timer, personally being there during the charging sequence, whatever, people also need to pay attention to the single battery proprietary jobs.

The laptop analogy is a toughie. Rip open a laptop battery and you will likely see a stack of 18650 batteries in a mixed series/parallel circuit. The thing is, laptops don't take anything like the day-in, day-out physical abuse of a PV, many proprietary PV use pretty cheap, simplistic, chargers, and even laptop batteries had several well-known problems. (occurrences are rare now, vendors are careful, but a half dozen years back there were major laptop battery recalls due to fire problems).

Apologies for the diversion, just want to make sure that newer people know that other things do need to be used properly, charging is a biggie.

 

[Rocketman]

Hopefully not too far off topic here, but a laptop has one really good safety feature that a removable cell, user configurable (single or stacked cells) PV doesn't have:
LIMITED HUMAN ACCESS TO THE CELLS.

Most laptops packs with triple chained series/parallel Li-ion cells that I have taken apart have about the same protection circuitry as a plain old Chinese protected Li-ion cell (except applied to each series point in the chain). All the super duper life and capacity calculations are done in software outside the battery pack. Some controls are in place just to keep a life history of each serialized pack and try and prevent the user from buying 'clones' or rebuilding packs.

Imagine the problems if a laptop user could tilt it over, dump cells and replace them.

 

[Uma]

You know what might be fun? A thread challenging mod creators to the "Balloon Test".
I've asked in a few threads how their new mods vent, but get .... well,.... let's not go there.
It' might be interesting to see which modders would happily submit a balloon test video.
Anybody up to the challenge?

P.S
Listening to Russ's taped show, he says the SB is now vented righteously so, unlike the first round of SB's that hit the scene years ago. Even those had a button vent if I remember right.
So many modders have updated with vents in mind, while others seem to ignore the vents altogether. What's up with that?
Maybe a rule is in order... for modders to show balloon test video on their mod, in their opening sellers page, so that then the consumer can make a more informed choice as to whether or not to consider their mod for purchase or modifying with vents.
I'm going to get so much flack for this, but seriously? It's worth it.

 

[VapingTurtle]

You know what might be fun? A thread challenging mod creators to the "Balloon Test".

Uma, a balloon test is so ridiculously bogus that I'd rather see a balloon animals challenge between the mod makers.

 

[Rocketman]

A vendor would be laughed out of business for showing a balloon test. How about making a statement about just how safe their Mod, PV, APV is. Sort of
"Hi, my name is Joe, and my Bla Bla Bla APV is safe because it has this and that".
Then people could respond to something other than Oooooo, this hits so hard, or I just love the color, or I get 36 days off just one charge.

Balloons? What if the balloon gets clogged, just like a carto?