Totally agree. I think I should have mentioned I'm referring to the guys who walk into the 5 star restaurant and start ripping on their SLR genesis because "It's their right" rather than the people who ask first and do so respectfully.
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Totally agree. I think I should have mentioned I'm referring to the guys who walk into the 5 star restaurant and start ripping on their SLR genesis because "It's their right" rather than the people who ask first and do so respectfully.
The whole commercial aspect would be such a great idea! how come the CASAA hasn't done something like that already? (or they have and I missed it since I don't watch much tv)
I would pitch in 20$ or something towards a commercial showing the benefits and testimonies of people anyday!!
I think starting a kickstarter to get a commerical up and going would be an awesome way to gain more support
Ah but the public outcry was started by the ANTZ taking it to public television and news print. When they saw that they couldn't win in 2009, they came up with an alternative attack, like good little soldiers.
A commercial with studies is a great idea. Now we just need to get these studies done. As someone pointed out in another thread I was following, vaping is in its baby stage. There are no long term studies out there. The studies that are out are just preliminary ones with wording at the end saying more study is needed.
I know it's better but in order to convince the general public you need concrete evidence because the ANTZ have already planted the seeds of doubt.
Yeah I'm totally down to donate to that cause. It needs to be professional and focus solely on the facts backed by scientific studies. I know there are lots out there and we have a few well known Doctors who support our cause that I think would be great speakers for it. It could direct them to a website like CASAA with links to all the studies so they can read for themselves and get educated.
+1 for the kickstarter!
As far as the studies done being short termed, some of them are still quite shocking. I think ANY good info is better than people being fed ANTZ information 24/7. You need time to conduct long term studies, right now we just need to create that time.
Hello again Ed.
It's largely because it has been decided by every democratic country on Earth, and a sizeable chunk of the others too, that employers have a legal duty to protect their employees from easily avoidable health and safety risks.
But you knew that, right?
Conflating the "smokers' rights" argument with the vaping one is a mistake, in my opinion. Smoking is banned, taxed heavily and discouraged because it's extremely harmful to you and significantly harmful to those around you.
Vaping is probably not very harmful at all, and banning it is not helpful or logically consistent.
I'm of the opinion that bans aren't going to prevent people from vaping. There's too much knowledge available to enable people to make their own juice and devices. And unless someone "advertises" that they're vaping, there's nothing to enforce. Bans, to me, are nothing more than a minor annoyance.
I live in Toronto Ontario and here we have whats called The Smoke-Free Ontario Act (SFOA) this regulates cigarette use throughout the Provence. I did contact the provincial government and city officials to find out if these laws/restrictions were applied to e-cigs. This was the response I got.
"The Smoke-Free Ontario Act (SFOA) and the City of Toronto Municipal Code does not regulate the use of electronic cigarettes, as these products do not contain tobacco. As such, restrictions respecting sale, promotion and use do not apply."
I have vaped in public a lot. On our transit system, stadiums, and with permission in restaurant and bars. I just recently got permission to vape at work in areas outside designated as non-smoking areas. I usually get looks and questions rather than discontent. If someone really objects I put my e-cig away. I think it's going to be give and take for a long time until e-cigs are accepted as a clean alternative to analogs.
"The Smoke-Free Ontario Act (SFOA) and the City of Toronto Municipal Code does not regulate the use of electronic cigarettes, as these products do not contain tobacco. As such, restrictions respecting sale, promotion and use do not apply."
I have vaped in public a lot. On our transit system, stadiums, and with permission in restaurant and bars. I just recently got permission to vape at work in areas outside designated as non-smoking areas. I usually get looks and questions rather than discontent. If someone really objects I put my e-cig away. I think it's going to be give and take for a long time until e-cigs are accepted as a clean alternative to analogs.
So you think CASAA should do a commercial? Really?? When CASAA can only get a small percentate of vapers on ECF to join for FREE, not to mention actually donate even a $1 or $2, where will the money come for this commercial??? The board of directors of CASAA are just ECF members who donate their time and efforts.
Heck when you can't get ECF members who join CASAA to even put the CASAA banner on their posts, I'm not sure how you will get people to join and financially support CASAA.
Your idea is a good one, but the apathy of many who vape make it seemingly impractical.
Note: there is a documentary film crew trying to make a documentary about vapers. They were at our last vape meet and many of us donated to their project. They need more funds. I would check them out:
We Are Vapers | An Exploration into the World of Harm Reduction | We Are Vapers
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This is naive, I'm afraid. All they have to do is strictly control who can obtain nicotine legally and vaping is dead as we know it. And many of us do not want to become criminals in order to vape. Or learn the messy, time consuming, possiblely dangerours and costly means to extract nicotine from tobacco leaves.
Hello again Ed.
It's largely because it has been decided by every democratic country on Earth, and a sizeable chunk of the others too, that employers have a legal duty to protect their employees from easily avoidable health and safety risks.
But you knew that, right?
Conflating the "smokers' rights" argument with the vaping one is a mistake, in my opinion. Smoking is banned, taxed heavily and discouraged because it's extremely harmful to you and significantly harmful to those around you.
Vaping is probably not very harmful at all, and banning it is not helpful or logically consistent.
It is Edd.
Hello back, generic Statist.
You are too good for the smokers? Well, I was one not too long ago. I will stand with them and defend their rights as well as I defend my own. I did not ask you to join me in defending their liberty, I already knew your answer. I made sure I used exact quotes this time.
Many things have been "decided by every democratic country on Earth" by those that love control of the State. I suppose you feel the time for debate on this matter is closed. Well my Statist friend, you should avoid me if that is your opinion. The premise that "employers have a legal duty to protect their employees from easily avoidable health and safety risks" is so poorly defined and ill-bounded that it could be interpreted to mean virtually anything. If you feel that such a broad mandate entitles the state to dictate anything it pleases, that is your right. I believe that the private property rights trump any of that hogwash you are spouting about legal (you left out "moral" this time, good decision) duties.
Where is that law written? It cannot be a legal duty without a law, if you believe in the Rule of Law. I do know how you love research. Please find me the applicable codes in U.S. Law. In any case, the individual state codes are what are the issues here in the United States. Why should a state have the right to dictate private property use to its citizens with regards to legal activities?
I'm up for educating my friends on vaping, some were quite amazed and even tried my PV. All, even the most anti smoking of them, seamed to be cool with it. But trying to tell everyone you vape near the benefits of vaping ect is a bit tiresome. It's not all we talk about. To be honest, the amount of pretty ladies in London was keeping us entertained! Lets all be a bit light hearted about vaping. Which is basically just healthier than smoking for me and poeple around. If I've got to go out side, so be it. It's nice to go out side and speak with others not from your group. I just got used to vaping inside then found 3 places that has banned the vape in a couple of days which prompted this thread. Peace people!
Sorry Edd
I am still a smoker, and believe in the right to smoke.
It is an indisputable fact however that all democratic states have legal systems in place to protect the rights of their employees, and these include the right to not be exposed needlessly to toxic chemicals. You may disagree with these systems, believing that property rights trump them, but they do exist - and have for the most part in recent history been arrived at democratically.
In view of that, I think it's a mistake for those trying to defend the right to vape to conflate that with the right to smoke: the opponents of vaping are already trying hard to paint them as identical. Early research indicates that they aren't, differing significantly in health effects.
I am still a smoker, and believe in the right to smoke.
It is an indisputable fact however that all democratic states have legal systems in place to protect the rights of their employees, and these include the right to not be exposed needlessly to toxic chemicals. You may disagree with these systems, believing that property rights trump them, but they do exist - and have for the most part in recent history been arrived at democratically.
In view of that, I think it's a mistake for those trying to defend the right to vape to conflate that with the right to smoke: the opponents of vaping are already trying hard to paint them as identical. Early research indicates that they aren't, differing significantly in health effects.
It is illegal for them to do so, which is why they advertise "smoke anywhere," which in turn got all the ANTZ even more upset than they had been. And formerly-neutral people seeing the ads are siding with the ANTZ because the ads were not on smell-o-vision.
I found that HALF-stealth vaping in public gets an interesting reaction. If I pass smokers, I blow a huge cloud, but indoors I go about half-stealth and I DO NOT ASK. Why? Because un-initiated people say no but stealth- and half-stealth- vaping initiates them.
What I thought was really funny was, the sister of a famous pro-vaping advocate was sitting with a bunch of us vapers at lunch, saying she doesn't want her brother having to vape with smokers because she is VERY allergic to cigarette smoke. She guessed that vaping might not even bother her, but she hadn't tried sitting near active vaping yet so she wasn't sure.
Then we told her that 7 of us had been vaping indoors at the same table with her for the last 45 minutes.
She was absolutely astonished, and plans to start telling that story.
A-anti
N-nicotine and
T-tobacco
Z-zealot
The people that are bound and determined to get rid of any nicotine/tobacco product in the country, any way they can.
Personally if an establishment told me I couldn't vape inside, I'd find somewhere alse to spend my money. I wouldn't vape inside just for the sake of vaping, but so far I haven't had any bad reactions when I do.
I honestly can't see how places in the UK can ban vaping, as far as I know it's not covered by the smoking ban. So you're not actually breaking any laws, vaping inside. I guess it's just a knee-jerk reaction, based on lack of knowledge. In my experience people always seem to be scared of things they don't fully understand
I honestly can't see how places in the UK can ban vaping, as far as I know it's not covered by the smoking ban. So you're not actually breaking any laws, vaping inside. I guess it's just a knee-jerk reaction, based on lack of knowledge. In my experience people always seem to be scared of things they don't fully understand
Hey man just trying to think of ideas!
Don't forget - big things come from big ideas. Something needs to be done regardless of what it is.
And making a commercial is not as expensive as you think.. especially when you can market it with YouTube for free instead of paying for the time slots on tv.
Sorry Edd
I am still a smoker, and believe in the right to smoke.
It is an indisputable fact however that all democratic states have legal systems in place to protect the rights of their employees, and these include the right to not be exposed needlessly to toxic chemicals. You may disagree with these systems, believing that property rights trump them, but they do exist - and have for the most part in recent history been arrived at democratically.
In view of that, I think it's a mistake for those trying to defend the right to vape to conflate that with the right to smoke: the opponents of vaping are already trying hard to paint them as identical. Early research indicates that they aren't, differing significantly in health effects.
Thank you.
It is not an indisputable fact. Your words are not meant to be, but are quite chilling. The statement "all democratic states have legal systems in place to protect the rights of their employees" implies I am an employee of the state. I am not! I am a client of the state. I pay for its many functions with my taxes. The state does not, nor has it ever paid me. For me to be an employee would require that direct compensation. I am forced to "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" and I do, but not one inch more.
The problem is, many people believe (like you do) that we are subordinates to the state. We are subordinate to the laws of the land. The state itself derives all of its power from the people, not the other way around. This is a very important point that is lost on so many. The main issue is that the government has forgotten this, too. It is high time we remind them all who is paying the bills, and that they better mind their business and get their butts in gear. My liberties are not open for negotiation.
"When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty."
-Thomas Jefferson
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