It would be an awful lot of fun to make 30 ml batches for about a buck and change if that...
My Boba's clone
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I dont think Ave juice is magic by any means. Us diy folks are far and away making better juice than Bobas. I mean, I know I do and many of those are just super concentrates... lol. I think as far as mostly VG juice its decent. The guy at the one shop here in buffalo that says his juices are all vg makes some really good stuff, especially tobaccos. However he doesnt talk about what flavor lines he uses either.
I did hear back from seedmans. Originally seedmans concentrates were made with vg. However three or four years ago they switched to all PG. Around the time when scubatdan began the discission on them being used for vaping purposes. So if ave is all VG then... all seedmans flavorings are out. Everything they make has some pg in it.
TA is definitely in bobas, what are the other tobaccos that were available around the time bobas was created? There are other Absolutes out there besides TA from tpa. I know there are others in vg tho but Ill have to do more searching. In the meantime Im still working with what I have been to try and find a closer representation to bobas.
Anyone have an older list of pg free tobacco concentrates or flavorings circa 2009, or 2010?
I did hear back from seedmans. Originally seedmans concentrates were made with vg. However three or four years ago they switched to all PG. Around the time when scubatdan began the discission on them being used for vaping purposes. So if ave is all VG then... all seedmans flavorings are out. Everything they make has some pg in it.
TA is definitely in bobas, what are the other tobaccos that were available around the time bobas was created? There are other Absolutes out there besides TA from tpa. I know there are others in vg tho but Ill have to do more searching. In the meantime Im still working with what I have been to try and find a closer representation to bobas.
Anyone have an older list of pg free tobacco concentrates or flavorings circa 2009, or 2010?
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Check out DIY Flavor Shack. They have some weird things going on in there like a 'tobacco flavor not concentrate' for you to 'mix and vape', whatever that means. It comes in VG as well, and Ben was quoted in an interview saying he appreciated the owner of that place for helping him in his early DIY days. They also have various VG flavors like banana (Gorilla Juice). Check it out.
I have a few times. Unfortunately their site is incomprehensible and bad to navigate. Half the stuff has no ingredients listed at all. At some point in time they must have had a section for only VG flavorings, but I see very few things listed. Its like a crap shoot figuring out what is what on their site... lol.
Just checking in
Great stuff guys, keep it coming!
One thought I had regarding PG-free concentrates and what not...I would hesitate to to conclude that something is not present in Boba's simply because its only commercially available in PG/was only available in PG at the time BB was created. Let's say BB is all TPA flavors...I'm sure Linda wouldn't have a problem providing Ben with VG concentrates given the fact that he'd be a constant, and big, customer. In fact having spoken to Linda a few times I wouldn't be surprised if she'd whip up some VG graham cracker etc for one of us if we asked (she's so nice
)
(Case in point I got in touch with her after I had purchased some sweet cream to verify that it had no 'custard' notes. Within 24 hours she replied that she had tested it after getting my email and updated the product description on the website to say that the flavor had a small amount of acetoin. Seriously, what a vendor )
I can imagine a scenario where a would-be juicemaker found some flavors he loved, came up with a recipe he loved, and then decided he wanted to make an "all VG" rendition and started making requests of flavorists. I don't know if or when Ben discovered he had an issue with PG personally. If he has a personal issue did it come up before or after he had locked onto Bobas, or even something like it. Perhaps his PG sensitivity was such that he could still handle <20 % PG or something to that effect, allowing him to make VG heavy mixes using PG flavors, etc etc.
Just speculating, but like I said I don't think its necessarily going to be very fruitful hunting for PG free items that were commercially available back then.
So I made a base with 1:2 TA blend and Seedman's. Its pretty good, but the EM is way over the top for me (to be honest, BB is way over the top for me. When I had some I cut some in half and no BS noticed zero flavor loss. My conclusion at the time was this was a perfect example of a great recipe with way over the top flavoring)
I could see some proportion of these flavors in BB. I separated off ten mls of it and added 3% graham cracker. It's damn good, and in the right ballpark, but still too much EM for me. If these are the correct suspects, than either the next 2 or so flavors will/should smother that EM into the background or perhaps it requires a lesser proportion of EM.
I'm going to order some cinnamon danish and chocolate clear (need to reload on the graham cracker) and keep playing.
ttys
Great stuff guys, keep it coming!
One thought I had regarding PG-free concentrates and what not...I would hesitate to to conclude that something is not present in Boba's simply because its only commercially available in PG/was only available in PG at the time BB was created. Let's say BB is all TPA flavors...I'm sure Linda wouldn't have a problem providing Ben with VG concentrates given the fact that he'd be a constant, and big, customer. In fact having spoken to Linda a few times I wouldn't be surprised if she'd whip up some VG graham cracker etc for one of us if we asked (she's so nice
) (Case in point I got in touch with her after I had purchased some sweet cream to verify that it had no 'custard' notes. Within 24 hours she replied that she had tested it after getting my email and updated the product description on the website to say that the flavor had a small amount of acetoin. Seriously, what a vendor )
I can imagine a scenario where a would-be juicemaker found some flavors he loved, came up with a recipe he loved, and then decided he wanted to make an "all VG" rendition and started making requests of flavorists. I don't know if or when Ben discovered he had an issue with PG personally. If he has a personal issue did it come up before or after he had locked onto Bobas, or even something like it. Perhaps his PG sensitivity was such that he could still handle <20 % PG or something to that effect, allowing him to make VG heavy mixes using PG flavors, etc etc.
Just speculating, but like I said I don't think its necessarily going to be very fruitful hunting for PG free items that were commercially available back then.
So I made a base with 1:2 TA blend and Seedman's. Its pretty good, but the EM is way over the top for me (to be honest, BB is way over the top for me. When I had some I cut some in half and no BS noticed zero flavor loss. My conclusion at the time was this was a perfect example of a great recipe with way over the top flavoring)
I could see some proportion of these flavors in BB. I separated off ten mls of it and added 3% graham cracker. It's damn good, and in the right ballpark, but still too much EM for me. If these are the correct suspects, than either the next 2 or so flavors will/should smother that EM into the background or perhaps it requires a lesser proportion of EM.
I'm going to order some cinnamon danish and chocolate clear (need to reload on the graham cracker) and keep playing.
ttys
This is my long version that is in the ultrasonic.
10ml with 23% flavor
RTS nicotine 2.5ml from 50mg nic or 12.5mg nic
no additional PG
VG 5.0ml
Hangsen Pipe Tobacco 1.0ml
Cap Cinn Da Swirl 0.3
FA Maple 0.3
TFA Deli Bacon 0.2
Ecx Sign Graham Cracker 0.2
TFA Toasted Almond 0.1
Hangsen Coconut 0.1
Hangsen Cocoa 0.1
When the maple is mixed with the bacon it turns into the rasiny bread flavor. I recognized it right away when I first mixed it with waffle. The long version is 50/50 pg/vg. In order for me to get a higher VG count I need to eliminate some flavors. I want to get it down to four since someone said that's how many are in Bobas. I know I need the Pipe Tobacco with maple and bacon. With all the flavors floating around this thread what one other flavor would you add to this 4 flavor mix. TIA Also, if someone out there has some bacon please do a quick mix with some syrup and confirm it indeed creates the rasin flavor.
10ml with 23% flavor
RTS nicotine 2.5ml from 50mg nic or 12.5mg nic
no additional PG
VG 5.0ml
Hangsen Pipe Tobacco 1.0ml
Cap Cinn Da Swirl 0.3
FA Maple 0.3
TFA Deli Bacon 0.2
Ecx Sign Graham Cracker 0.2
TFA Toasted Almond 0.1
Hangsen Coconut 0.1
Hangsen Cocoa 0.1
When the maple is mixed with the bacon it turns into the rasiny bread flavor. I recognized it right away when I first mixed it with waffle. The long version is 50/50 pg/vg. In order for me to get a higher VG count I need to eliminate some flavors. I want to get it down to four since someone said that's how many are in Bobas. I know I need the Pipe Tobacco with maple and bacon. With all the flavors floating around this thread what one other flavor would you add to this 4 flavor mix. TIA Also, if someone out there has some bacon please do a quick mix with some syrup and confirm it indeed creates the rasin flavor.
That looks like a delicious breakfast. I'd add a bloody mary.
On a serious note...to my palate, a milk chocolate flavor is the most dominant. It's not a dry cocoa flavor, just a normal boring Hershey's chocolate.
Been giving it a whiff between US cycles. It sure smells good. Picking up a nutty chocolate note.
If you want a bloody mary, might as well go with Dekang Ketchup and TFA Worcestershire.
Didn't think I'd ever see bacon flavoring in a Boba's thread, but then again, I don't taste chocolate either, so who knows.
If you want a bloody mary, might as well go with Dekang Ketchup and TFA Worcestershire.
Didn't think I'd ever see bacon flavoring in a Boba's thread, but then again, I don't taste chocolate either, so who knows.
That's the THING. When you mix bacon with a syrup flavor you get a raisin flavor. If you go all the way back to the beginning of this forum one of the first flavors people are talking about is French Toast with Bacon. Most people, like now, were turned off to the idea but those who tried it liked it. I've been following this thread for some time and noticed often people were trying to capture that raisin flavor but could not bring it up to the front. Well here it is.
One other thing, I only had Bobas once (one bottle) and that's been at least a couple years ago. But, when I vaped my waffle/bacon I knew right away where I had tasted it before. It was exactly the same. I should probably order a bottle just to make a good comparison.
To me, specific ingredients are inconsequential. If we can recreate Boba's using ingredients that aren't exactly what Ben uses, I say go for it.
Im still working on it gang. No updates yet. Im sure Ben could have some flavorists that might be willing to try VG versions of flavors if he requested them being as he is buying in bulk. However I did verify with seedmans that they will do that for no one. Regardless of the order size. Also, some flavors just can be created in VG. It would have to be alc, or triacetin... and triacetin generally doesnt mix well in vg.
Where the seedmans may be useful for recreating a version of bobas, it is not an ingredient in bobas unless ben has fibbed about it being pg free. Not saying he is mind you, but Im still trying to find a list of vg flavorings circa 2009, if possible.
I am also going to look into using ecf member Nuck's TA recipe as a base for Bobas as well. Had some experience with it when I first worked with TA, but moved past it since. However that recipe was around back then. Bobas launched around Jan 2010. So the recipe was likely created 2009 sometime.
Where the seedmans may be useful for recreating a version of bobas, it is not an ingredient in bobas unless ben has fibbed about it being pg free. Not saying he is mind you, but Im still trying to find a list of vg flavorings circa 2009, if possible.
I am also going to look into using ecf member Nuck's TA recipe as a base for Bobas as well. Had some experience with it when I first worked with TA, but moved past it since. However that recipe was around back then. Bobas launched around Jan 2010. So the recipe was likely created 2009 sometime.
The Nuck's TA is not that different than what we have been using earlier in this thread except that Nuck used PGA or similar high alc. booze as the base instead of PG/VG. Then they would sometimes add a drop of vanilla to smooth it out a bit.
Nuck didnt use vanilla. He uses 1% EM and a tiny but of menthol for smoothing, and no seedmans. I tend to use a lil more TA than he did tho.
Reason Im going to try with it is because its a good TA base and since we know there are two additional tobaccos it will be easier to work with. I need to order some more TA pure tho as well.
Reason Im going to try with it is because its a good TA base and since we know there are two additional tobaccos it will be easier to work with. I need to order some more TA pure tho as well.
To use Nuck's own words quoted from his first post in that thread:
"I'm going to try adding small traces of vanilla or caramel and maybe even a hint of raspberry next to see how it goes."
This could also have been to flavor instead of smooth, so I may have used the wrong term. Let us know how it goes buffaloguy!
"I'm going to try adding small traces of vanilla or caramel and maybe even a hint of raspberry next to see how it goes."
This could also have been to flavor instead of smooth, so I may have used the wrong term. Let us know how it goes buffaloguy!
I've been following this thread as well as others here and elsewhere since the beginning taking notes and would like to share some info and make some observations. After more than a thousand posts let's analyze what was posted here to describe what people are tasting in Bobas and using to make a clone.
These are from the first 1050 post and are not in any specific order.
FLAVORS
Cotton Candy LA TPA
Coconut CAP VZSC LA Han
Cinnamon Danish TPA CAP
Graham Cracker TPA CAP ECX
Molasses TPA
Butter TPA
Hazelnut TPA FA
Raisin TFA
Toasted Almond TFA
Chocolate VZSC FA
Brown Sugar TFA
Honey TFA
Banana Nut Bread TFA FA
Vanilla Butternut LA
Vanillan TFA
Maple LA FA
Caramel
English Toffee LA
Cherry LA
Almond LA
Ginger
Cola
Chocolate Fudge Brownie CAP
Cinnamon Roll LA
Vanilla LA
Grape
Marshmallow
Butterscotch FA
Peanut Butter WL TFA
Cocoa Han
Deli Bacon TFA
Most people seem to describe it as a smooth sweet, buttery flavor with tones of chocolate, vanilla, honey, nuts, cookies or graham crackers with hints of ginger, cinnamon, raisin or cherry.
TOBACCOS
Black Cigar VZSC
Black and mile ECX
Seedmans Commercial Blend
Seedmans Captain Black
Old Captain VZSC
555 TFA
Black and Mile Plus ECX
Type M TFA
Tobacco Blend (alc) TPA
Black Honey Tobacco TFA
Captain Black SM
Tobacco Express Captain ECX
Vanilla Tobacco FW
Pipe Tobacco Han
The richness of the tobacco notes are obvious from looking at the above list. A combination of any three of these would result in that. The question then lies in whether all the flavors can be achieved from the "Flavors" list or will some have to be introduced in the form of tobacco additives. It is interesting to note that reportedly Seedmans originally used VG as a base to many of their tobacco additives and flavorings but has since changed to PG.
Extracts and Additives
MTS Vape Wizard FA
Smooth TFA
Vinegar
Everclear
Malt flavor extract NF
Date flavor extract NF
EM TFA
TA TFA
Vanilla Cream extract NF
Camel Snus Mellow extract
Acetyl Pyrazine TFA
Captain Black net
Torano Maduro Cigar net
Saffron extract
H&H Anniversary Cake net
Saline solution
A very interesting list of ingenuity. It seems that most anything can be used as a basis for an extraction using VG, alcohol, PG or distilled water as a method. The time it takes depends on the method and equipment used.
My Thoughts
Let's start on the premise that most of what has already been stated by Ben about the product is true, i.e. 3 tobacco and 2 other flavors. I think that anyone who has tried Bobas would agree that it is more than 2 simple single flavors added together. It is more likely a combination of two "multiplex" flavors. An example of a multiplex flavor would be something like "cola" flavor.
Sounds simple until you realize that the original cola flavors included lime juice, citric acid, coca extract, caffeine, vanilla, caramel, sugar, water and the secret 7X flavor which originally consisted of alcohol, orange oil, lemon oil, nutmeg oil, coriander, neroli, and cinnamon. This made up the syrup flavor packet (25%) which was then combined with carbonated water (75%) to complete the product.
The next premise is that the flavor packet approximates 40% in Boba's. If this is true then we need to be looking for at least one or more extracts to combine with concentrates. The big question here is whether AVE is buying what is commercially available or making their own. Possibly something like Smores or English Toffee extract from NF combined with something like Snick-Snack flavor concentrate from CAP would be a place to start.
My take on the "no alcohol" comment is that Ben was asked about this just after a customer had told him that the customers wife had said that she thought she smelled beer when she sniffed the Boba's bottle. Earlier than that even, someone had asked him about Boba's containing PGA or Vodka. In light of what that conversation was about it is possible that his comment of "no alcohol" was his way of saying that it didn't contain any booze and not meant to imply that no ethyl alc. could possibly be used in the case of extracts.
This thread has been a daily source of information, education and enjoyment for many of us DIYers. It has also provided recipes for some great tasting juices albeit none have been a match for the iconic Boba's. Still, many thanks to Manwithnoname, Levitas, Glassmanoak, Homebrew, taofishdude, Rlafontaine1971, Slohand, eitano, buffaloguy, Porksmuggler, NamVet68, Norman Clature, VIPOD and the many others who have contributed.
Now I just need to find a tobacco with cinnamon.
tldr: more work is needed.
These are from the first 1050 post and are not in any specific order.
FLAVORS
Cotton Candy LA TPA
Coconut CAP VZSC LA Han
Cinnamon Danish TPA CAP
Graham Cracker TPA CAP ECX
Molasses TPA
Butter TPA
Hazelnut TPA FA
Raisin TFA
Toasted Almond TFA
Chocolate VZSC FA
Brown Sugar TFA
Honey TFA
Banana Nut Bread TFA FA
Vanilla Butternut LA
Vanillan TFA
Maple LA FA
Caramel
English Toffee LA
Cherry LA
Almond LA
Ginger
Cola
Chocolate Fudge Brownie CAP
Cinnamon Roll LA
Vanilla LA
Grape
Marshmallow
Butterscotch FA
Peanut Butter WL TFA
Cocoa Han
Deli Bacon TFA
Most people seem to describe it as a smooth sweet, buttery flavor with tones of chocolate, vanilla, honey, nuts, cookies or graham crackers with hints of ginger, cinnamon, raisin or cherry.
TOBACCOS
Black Cigar VZSC
Black and mile ECX
Seedmans Commercial Blend
Seedmans Captain Black
Old Captain VZSC
555 TFA
Black and Mile Plus ECX
Type M TFA
Tobacco Blend (alc) TPA
Black Honey Tobacco TFA
Captain Black SM
Tobacco Express Captain ECX
Vanilla Tobacco FW
Pipe Tobacco Han
The richness of the tobacco notes are obvious from looking at the above list. A combination of any three of these would result in that. The question then lies in whether all the flavors can be achieved from the "Flavors" list or will some have to be introduced in the form of tobacco additives. It is interesting to note that reportedly Seedmans originally used VG as a base to many of their tobacco additives and flavorings but has since changed to PG.
Extracts and Additives
MTS Vape Wizard FA
Smooth TFA
Vinegar
Everclear
Malt flavor extract NF
Date flavor extract NF
EM TFA
TA TFA
Vanilla Cream extract NF
Camel Snus Mellow extract
Acetyl Pyrazine TFA
Captain Black net
Torano Maduro Cigar net
Saffron extract
H&H Anniversary Cake net
Saline solution
A very interesting list of ingenuity. It seems that most anything can be used as a basis for an extraction using VG, alcohol, PG or distilled water as a method. The time it takes depends on the method and equipment used.
My Thoughts
Let's start on the premise that most of what has already been stated by Ben about the product is true, i.e. 3 tobacco and 2 other flavors. I think that anyone who has tried Bobas would agree that it is more than 2 simple single flavors added together. It is more likely a combination of two "multiplex" flavors. An example of a multiplex flavor would be something like "cola" flavor.
Sounds simple until you realize that the original cola flavors included lime juice, citric acid, coca extract, caffeine, vanilla, caramel, sugar, water and the secret 7X flavor which originally consisted of alcohol, orange oil, lemon oil, nutmeg oil, coriander, neroli, and cinnamon. This made up the syrup flavor packet (25%) which was then combined with carbonated water (75%) to complete the product.
The next premise is that the flavor packet approximates 40% in Boba's. If this is true then we need to be looking for at least one or more extracts to combine with concentrates. The big question here is whether AVE is buying what is commercially available or making their own. Possibly something like Smores or English Toffee extract from NF combined with something like Snick-Snack flavor concentrate from CAP would be a place to start.
My take on the "no alcohol" comment is that Ben was asked about this just after a customer had told him that the customers wife had said that she thought she smelled beer when she sniffed the Boba's bottle. Earlier than that even, someone had asked him about Boba's containing PGA or Vodka. In light of what that conversation was about it is possible that his comment of "no alcohol" was his way of saying that it didn't contain any booze and not meant to imply that no ethyl alc. could possibly be used in the case of extracts.
This thread has been a daily source of information, education and enjoyment for many of us DIYers. It has also provided recipes for some great tasting juices albeit none have been a match for the iconic Boba's. Still, many thanks to Manwithnoname, Levitas, Glassmanoak, Homebrew, taofishdude, Rlafontaine1971, Slohand, eitano, buffaloguy, Porksmuggler, NamVet68, Norman Clature, VIPOD and the many others who have contributed.
Now I just need to find a tobacco with cinnamon.
tldr: more work is needed.
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I've been running 3ml samples since I started DIY, shortly after trying BB, and I've lost count of how many mixes. I haven't forgotten all the flavorings I've tried though, which are most of those on your list
A long time ago in a forum far far away, it was rumored BB started as flue cured and cola
All my trials for a while have included cola, but I'm still not close enough.
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