Melted endcaps, culprit is TPA blueberry, blueberry candy or Fruit Express raspberry

Status
Not open for further replies.

buffaloguy

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 22, 2012
1,148
1,167
Buffalo NY
I guess the only way to find out if its the triacetin would be to have tpa put some of that chemical on some different plastics and see if theres a reaction. Thats my best guess. Id try it for kicks but I wouldnt know where to buy the stuff. Anyone know the owner of tpa enuff that she might test it and document any changes with pics?
 

Kurt

Quantum Vapyre
ECF Veteran
Sep 16, 2009
3,433
3,607
Philadelphia
Plasticizers do not melt plastic. They are added to polymer materials to achieve certain flexibility and texture. Melting a polymer material with a substance generally means a reaction has occurred. When plasticizers are leached from a plastic, it will become brittle and crack. It does not melt the plastic, it is added when the plastic is made and it simply inserts itself between polymer chains.

This observation of plastic melting is very concerning. A substance that can melt a plastic is probably very bad to inhale. I am leaning toward the culprit being citrus oil, which is commonly limonene. This will melt polystyrenes. Other oils, such as clove oil (eugenol) will etch certain polycarbonates. Try grinding al bunch of cloves in a coffee grinder with a shiny plastic lid...it won't be shiny after that. Citrus and orange oils are used to cut grease, as in orange cleaners. These are powerful surfactants, and will be rather disruptive to the delicate balance of surfaces in the lungs.

Not saying it is citrus oil, or that the caps are polystyrene, but clearly the cap is a canary in the coal mine, so to speak. Whatever is doing this, do not vape it!

I am a long term fan of TPA blueberry, but I've not noticed this before...then again, I have not been using caps on cartos in a very long time. The soft caps are most likely silicone, so not an issue. Not sure what the hard caps are, but they do not seem to be particularly resilient plastic, and I guess with most juices they don't need to be.
 

Kurt

Quantum Vapyre
ECF Veteran
Sep 16, 2009
3,433
3,607
Philadelphia
I could also see triacetin as a possible culprit. It is a small tri-ester, and as such could possibly dissolve some plastics, although I have no data on this at all. If triacetin is used as a plasitcizer, it probably does not react with that plastic, but simply intercolates. OTOH it is similar to three ethyl acetates bound together, and ethyl acetate is the currect nail polish remover, so I can certainly see it behaving similarly with some plastics.
 

favor1

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 2, 2011
218
60
traveling about
That's the assumption I had after reading this article from Argonne National Laboratory, in which they sort of hint that plasticizers or plastics containing plasticizers may dissolve other plastics, but I wouldn't know much about the chemical/physical properties to make any good decision from the material and apply them here, perhaps the rubber on the caps (if any) dissolved?:

Plastic and Rubber Interaction
 

favor1

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 2, 2011
218
60
traveling about
This is a quote I pulled from the article:

"That rubber has a huge plasticizer percentage. Plasticizer is a liquid that dissolves into a solid, helping it to be rubbery instead of brittle. Plasticizers for polystyrene tend to dissolve most plastics. There are polystyene gels and ABS gels these days."

Edit: So I'm guessing if we find something confirming that Triacetin is a plasticizer for polystyrene than that is the answer?

Btw, according to this next link, glycerin and PG are also plasticizers :confused:

http://drugtopics.modernmedicine.co...in-tabl/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/561047
 
Last edited:

Kurt

Quantum Vapyre
ECF Veteran
Sep 16, 2009
3,433
3,607
Philadelphia
Only if the caps are polystyrene, which I don't think they are...generally polystyrene is a foam material. Packing foam blocks and peanuts are polystyrene. Not heard of it being used for a hard plastic. Not saying they are not polystyrene, just don't know.

we are trying to deduce some fairly subtle chemistry with just a few pieces of info. Linda no doubt has some on hand, and could either sell some, or try some experiments on her own. I wouldn't be surprised if she was very interested in doing that, since she is a strong advocate for vaping safety in terms of chemicals, such as dicarbonyl custard notes.
 

my4jewels

Resting In Peace
ECF Veteran
May 12, 2011
3,297
8,401
Maine
Kurt, did you see the pics in post #3? That's just what my caps looked like. They stayed gummy like that and wouldn't get hard again. My experiment was to use a spare set of end caps. I put each one in a separte glass pyrex bowl and dripped on one with TPA blueberry and the other with TPA blueberry candy. In a few days, they were both having that same reaction.
 

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,658
1
84,864
So-Cal
Only if the caps are polystyrene, which I don't think they are...generally polystyrene is a foam material. Packing foam blocks and peanuts are polystyrene. Not heard of it being used for a hard plastic. Not saying they are not polystyrene, just don't know.

...

Polystyrene is actually used for Many types of "Hard Plastic" Applications.

I have been doing some CNC Programming to make Dies for a Injection Mold House. They Make All Kinds of Containers from the Size of a Contact Lens to about the Size of a Soup Can. About 30% of what they do is Polystyrene.

I don't know if these Caps were Polystyrene. But it would surprise me if they were.
 

favor1

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 2, 2011
218
60
traveling about
I know that there is a foam "pad" on the inside of the caps in my vials. I'm guessing that is polystyrene so I'll go pry em' all out now lol. Also, the TPA bottles have some kind of rubber on the inside of the caps. I've noticed that during shaking, all the TPA flavors I have that contain triacetin turn a cloudy color and then revert to a clear/faintly-translucent color when they sit for a while. Triacetin is most likely causing the liquid to cloud as no other TPA flavors I have cloud up like that. I'll see what happens when I remove the foam cap endings.
 

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,658
1
84,864
So-Cal
...

we are trying to deduce some fairly subtle chemistry with just a few pieces of info. ....

Hey a Question

I thought I read once that Esters could be formed in e-Liquids that contain Alcohols. And even in some e-Liquids where Alcohol was not added. Is this true?

My knowledge of Chemistry is Limited to two College Class I took about 25 years ago.
 

Kurt

Quantum Vapyre
ECF Veteran
Sep 16, 2009
3,433
3,607
Philadelphia
Kurt, did you see the pics in post #3? That's just what my caps looked like. They stayed gummy like that and wouldn't get hard again. My experiment was to use a spare set of end caps. I put each one in a separte glass pyrex bowl and dripped on one with TPA blueberry and the other with TPA blueberry candy. In a few days, they were both having that same reaction.

Sure did, and I'm not liking what I see. Its one thing to leach plasticizers, its quite another to dissolve a plastic. As I said, I've been using TPA blueberry off and on for at least 2 years, and never saw this. But then I don't use carto caps, as I said, so the situation probably never arose.

And I kid you not, I just read a story in Chemical and Engineering News that says that diacetyl seems to accelerate Alzheimers disease and other amyloid plague diseases of the brain.

Forget about flavors attracting kids! It's the adults I'm worried about!
 

Kurt

Quantum Vapyre
ECF Veteran
Sep 16, 2009
3,433
3,607
Philadelphia
Hey a Question

I thought I read once that Esters could be formed in e-Liquids that contain Alcohols. And even in some e-Liquids where Alcohol was not added. Is this true?

My knowledge of Chemistry is Limited to two College Class I took about 25 years ago.

In theory, maybe, but the kinetics would generally be slow unless there was some sort of H+ source to catalyze it. But this is basically soup chemistry, with so many flavor compounds it makes my head spin. A few years ago there seemed to be evidence of the reverse of what you speak of: fruit esters hydrolyzing with water present, leading to pukey organic acids, and wet dog alcohols. Those were sealed Johnson Creek juices, so its possible they were already bad before opening them, but these were sealed and in a fridge for 6 months. Naturally the conclusion most people came to here was to not store in the fridge, but that's a different problem I deal with here...good thing the phase of the moon was not mentioned, people would be looking outside at night every time they opened a new bottle.
 

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,658
1
84,864
So-Cal
...

And I kid you not, I just read a story in Chemical and Engineering News that says that diacetyl seems to accelerate Alzheimers disease and other amyloid plague diseases of the brain.

Forget about flavors attracting kids! It's the adults I'm worried about!

I have started to see that Many e-Liquid / Flavoring Retailer's are stateing that Bla Bla Bla Flavor Ccontains No Diacetyl.

Which is Good News.


In theory, maybe, but the kinetics would generally be slow unless there was some sort of H+ source to catalyze it. But this is basically soup chemistry, with so many flavor compounds it makes my head spin. ...

I can understand. With the 10,000,000 or so Possible Combinations of Flavorings, Sweeteners and Colorants out there, it is kinda hard to say What is What.

That's great info I did not know, zioDman! So they could well be polysty.

The reason that caught my eye is because I'm writting a lot of code right now to make Injection Mold Dies. The dies are to make Containers similar to the ones I linked to.

The owner of the Injection Molding company bought 54,000 lbs of Raw Plastic a couple of weeks ago because the price had dropped to about 1.25$/pound due to Oil Prices having taken a dip.

And about 1/3 of the 54,000 lbs was Raw Polystyrene pelets. It's hard to miss 16,000 lbs of Polystyrene. LOL.
 

my4jewels

Resting In Peace
ECF Veteran
May 12, 2011
3,297
8,401
Maine
If you want to avoid even trace amounts of diacetyl, read this: The Flavorist Workshop

Please read it all of the way through. Just because a vendor is telling us they don't use diacetyl, it doesn't mean they are not using acetoin and acetyl propionyl.

On another note, in some studies, nicotine is showing that it's a good catylyst to stave off Alzheimer's.
 

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,658
1
84,864
So-Cal
If you want to avoid even trace amounts of diacetyl, read this: The Flavorist Workshop

Please read it all of the way through. Just because a vendor is telling us they don't use diacetyl, it doesn't mean they are not using acetoin and acetyl propionyl.

On another note, in some studies, nicotine is showing that it's a good catylyst to stave off Alzheimer's.

Good Post.

Thank you for the Information.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread