My Boba's clone
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You may want to edit that while you still can so nobody gets confused.
Great post tigdag. Its a good roundup and thoughts. Also keep in mind that Ben had said 5 basic ingredients, not 5 flavors. Three of which we know from his statements to be tobaccos. The other two ingredients could be flavors... OR additives like EM, water, menthol... or whatever else he wants to sneak in there.
Would the base liquid be considered one of the ingredients?
Depending on the type of cinnamon you're looking for, redhot vs. spice, I have a simple tobacco recipe:
VZ Dunhill (SC) - 1 drop per 5mls
TFA Cinnamon Danish - 3%
VZ Coconut - 1%
Ave Boba's Bounty - 5% (This one could be omitted, and replaced if needed)
I'm not an advocate of steeping, as many already know. However, after a day of settling, it's pretty decent to my palate. Adjust as needed.
I would say no. As I think of how most of us mix we really see ingredients as what we add to our base. Is it technically an ingredient, yep. However, I think we logically omit it because it is the base ingredient.
So to me its, base + five ingredients. Sure, I could be wrong in my assumption here though.
So to me its, base + five ingredients. Sure, I could be wrong in my assumption here though.
buffaloguy, what are your thoughts on homemade tobacco extracts as an ingredient?
Quick note...
There is some validity to the so called "beer or alcohol smell". Did an experiment with my spouse (non-smoker or vaper). Vaped the original BB's and my other 6 clone's that are darn close. She mentioned that the original BB had a alcohol like smell to it, almost like beer that's been "sitting in the sun"..her quote.
I followed that up with the 6 clone's, and the only one she said compared was the "Desert Ship-DS (FA)" tobacco base. She did mention that my DS base clone was much stronger than the original BB.
Now, I seem to remember in my very early days of vaping, the Desert Ship liquid from Dekang was what I gravitated to....smelled like a "fresh pack of camels", one of my analog brands. There was also that "pungent" smell, almost like..well, stale beer.
I'm also a big fan of BWB Casablanca, that uses a high concentrate of Turkish tobacco, really never noticed that until now.
Maybe it's all in my head...either way, back in the lab tonight to mix a new batch using a much lower % of DS with my other tobacco extracts , along with flavours from #7.
There is some validity to the so called "beer or alcohol smell". Did an experiment with my spouse (non-smoker or vaper). Vaped the original BB's and my other 6 clone's that are darn close. She mentioned that the original BB had a alcohol like smell to it, almost like beer that's been "sitting in the sun"..her quote.
I followed that up with the 6 clone's, and the only one she said compared was the "Desert Ship-DS (FA)" tobacco base. She did mention that my DS base clone was much stronger than the original BB.
Now, I seem to remember in my very early days of vaping, the Desert Ship liquid from Dekang was what I gravitated to....smelled like a "fresh pack of camels", one of my analog brands. There was also that "pungent" smell, almost like..well, stale beer.
I'm also a big fan of BWB Casablanca, that uses a high concentrate of Turkish tobacco, really never noticed that until now.
Maybe it's all in my head...either way, back in the lab tonight to mix a new batch using a much lower % of DS with my other tobacco extracts , along with flavours from #7.
I had a great long answer to this question and my browser went wonky and I lost it... lol.
Short and sweet... no absolutely not. No way in tarnation... h e double hockey sticks no. The size and scale required for him to meet demand would be immense and back in 2009 extracting useable tobacco for vaping into vg was unheard of. Absolutes were very much in vogue tho.
Bobas was released Jan 2010. Ben didnt even start diy till mid to late 2009. Whatever he used to create bobas had to be commercially available for anyone to purchase in 2009.
Short and sweet... no absolutely not. No way in tarnation... h e double hockey sticks no. The size and scale required for him to meet demand would be immense and back in 2009 extracting useable tobacco for vaping into vg was unheard of. Absolutes were very much in vogue tho.
Bobas was released Jan 2010. Ben didnt even start diy till mid to late 2009. Whatever he used to create bobas had to be commercially available for anyone to purchase in 2009.
I totally agree. My recipe has some beer flavoring in it. Whiskey as well. The whiskey flavoring smells like raisins until it chills out.
My latest mix was a combo of Desert Ship, Gold & Silver and Black Cigar along with the other stuff in my recipe. I also think that the guy who listed all the ingredients in this thread (except not mine) may have been onto something with the cola. So I mixed that up today with the whiskey and tobacco. Wouldn't that be funny if it's Jack & Coke with a smoke? lol
Funny you should mention that, because I remembered PBusardo's review on Boba's from long time ago on Youtube.
He mentions Dekang, and I quote "I've heard that he (Ben?) uses dekang..."
A PBusardo review : Boba's Bounty Juice from AVE - YouTube
Sure, that was more than 2 years ago but maybe it could be of some help
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but, I will raise some questions.
Are you saying that he's not using an tobacco extract at all, or just home made? Not a tobacco flavoring, mind you, as an extract is really the only reason, save his preference, that he couldn't offer his tobacco line nic-free, no?
Not a homemade extract. I just dont see that as a possability. Its never been his claim, and he couldnt handle the volume needed for his products. He has to be buying his ingredients from the same sources everyone else does. Whether that is a US or overseas provider. It must be commercially available tobacco extracts (absolutes are also extracts), and/or flavorings.
Of course its all conjecture and only he knows for sure. However the availability patterns of the supplies he needs, his past statements, and just the economics of business say he's using the same stuff as everyone else. He just happend on a decent recipe... one he likely sourced from another recipe early on someplace... and changed or tweaked it his way.... as many of us do all the time.
As far as not offering it "nic free" ive never read anyplace he ever gave a reason for that. Absolutes can contain trace amounts of nic. TA according to the info on the TPA site says it it nic free, yet its likely there are still trace amounts.
However he might claim not to be able to do a zero nic juice because he frankly doesnt want to. The bobas clones Ive made have been zero nic juices thus far and they lack that punch from the nic, even in high vg. Maybe he simply doesnt trust his recipe in zero nic juice? I have no idea on this issue.
Did he say at some point, or give reasoning as to why he doesnt do zero nic juice? Cause there could be alot of reasons for it. Not just extracts.
Of course its all conjecture and only he knows for sure. However the availability patterns of the supplies he needs, his past statements, and just the economics of business say he's using the same stuff as everyone else. He just happend on a decent recipe... one he likely sourced from another recipe early on someplace... and changed or tweaked it his way.... as many of us do all the time.
As far as not offering it "nic free" ive never read anyplace he ever gave a reason for that. Absolutes can contain trace amounts of nic. TA according to the info on the TPA site says it it nic free, yet its likely there are still trace amounts.
However he might claim not to be able to do a zero nic juice because he frankly doesnt want to. The bobas clones Ive made have been zero nic juices thus far and they lack that punch from the nic, even in high vg. Maybe he simply doesnt trust his recipe in zero nic juice? I have no idea on this issue.
Did he say at some point, or give reasoning as to why he doesnt do zero nic juice? Cause there could be alot of reasons for it. Not just extracts.
Without remembering his exact words, I believe it was something along the lines of, "We cannot offer our tobacco blends without nicotine due to _____." I want to say an ingredient used in the blends, but I can't remember for sure.
Either way, it all goes on trust. Every single piece of information given to us from Ben could be false. Personally, I don't think that to be the case, but it surely is a possibility.
This just might be a personal thing of mine, but, it seems that when I vape on Boba's, as opposed to my own, I seem to get a somewhat more satisfying release of the neurotransmitters in the dome. Is that boost of pleasure due to the nature of the nicotine? Or could it be due to the pleasure of a satisfying flavor? I cannot say for sure. But it's there.
Your logic is sound. I don't know if he's making his own extracts, but it certainly does seem unlikely. I have had the hunch that he gets said extracts from DIY flavorshack, seeing as they do offer tobacco flavorings (extracts?) in all VG (no directly, but I emailed them requesting this, and they said they would do it).
I guess all of that being said: I'm getting the impression that you don't believe that there are any extracts in the blend at all? I know that TA could have trace levels, the same with any natural tobacco flavoring. But would that merit Ben's decision not to offer nic-free tobacco flavorings? Trace amounts?
Anyways, I suppose I'm just rambling now. Too bad we can't sit around as a group around a bonfire, crack open some beers, and discuss it in person.
Edit: I wanted to ask, what other reasons would he not be able to offer his tobacco flavorings nic-free aside of use of extracts, and preference?
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Trace amounts could mean a lot considering the flavor levels believed to be used. Perhaps not significant at typical ratios, but aren't we taking around 40% flavoring in BB? Just a thought.
Well thats what Im thinking ckone. IF (big if) his reasoning is trace amounts.
Levitas, I dont believe hes using extracts. In 2009 people were extracting and making NET's. But to do it VG would have been very difficult. Heck... it still is. And with NET's you usually always have WTA's... if my knowledge is serving me correctly.
However to my knowledge TA has no nicotine. Because of how it is made and processed. Forum member Mr. Mann (i believe if my memory serves right) sometime back did a lot of digging on tobacco absolutes in a thread called "Natural Tobaccos". The extraction process for absolutes is far different than a NET. Although there are very similar results in many cases. So as far as absolutes go (like TA pure) there's additional processing for the tobacco plant that results in that thick black oily TA goodness many of us love. Its also this processing that results in the eliminaton of the nicotine.
Id really need the post or info to see ben's reason as to why he couldnt do zero nic. Till then I just have to assume it because he just doesnt feel like it. I know that sounds like it shouldnt be a valid reason but Ive seen business owners do much weirder things... lol.
Levitas, I dont believe hes using extracts. In 2009 people were extracting and making NET's. But to do it VG would have been very difficult. Heck... it still is. And with NET's you usually always have WTA's... if my knowledge is serving me correctly.
However to my knowledge TA has no nicotine. Because of how it is made and processed. Forum member Mr. Mann (i believe if my memory serves right) sometime back did a lot of digging on tobacco absolutes in a thread called "Natural Tobaccos". The extraction process for absolutes is far different than a NET. Although there are very similar results in many cases. So as far as absolutes go (like TA pure) there's additional processing for the tobacco plant that results in that thick black oily TA goodness many of us love. Its also this processing that results in the eliminaton of the nicotine.
Id really need the post or info to see ben's reason as to why he couldnt do zero nic. Till then I just have to assume it because he just doesnt feel like it. I know that sounds like it shouldnt be a valid reason but Ive seen business owners do much weirder things... lol.
This is Ben's words from 4-15-2011
We are glad you are enjoying the Boba's Bounty and Gorilla Juice. However, all of our tobaccos come with a flavoring that contains nicotine. This addition prevents us from producing our tobacco line in 0mg. Only our sweet flavors are available in 0mg.
From http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/alien-visions-e-juice/179588-0mg-nicotine-juice.html
Thanks for that ckone. However, Im kinda stumped on what the heck he means by that. Flavorings dont contain nicotine... so... it kinda makes no sense.
Has anyone ever seen a flavoring that contains nicotine? (excluding all naturally extracted tobaccos) cause I havent.
Net's would have nic.... but they would be so weak flavoring wise in vg even if they were extracted into water first then added to vg. Im no expert on NET's. I know some, but maybe Im missing something.
Has anyone ever seen a flavoring that contains nicotine? (excluding all naturally extracted tobaccos) cause I havent.
Net's would have nic.... but they would be so weak flavoring wise in vg even if they were extracted into water first then added to vg. Im no expert on NET's. I know some, but maybe Im missing something.
I do a lot of cigar extracts. I use PG almost exclusively, but I've done a few with VG also - the results are very different. Using the same cigar, I've cut some into equal amounts of PG & VG in baby food jars, heated them up for a few seconds in the microwave every day for a week (just enough to get them warm - not hot) , and then filtered them through a cotton ball in a large syringe.
The results are interesting - the flavors are very different, and probably due in-part to the flavor of the PG/VG itself, but the VG extracts are always significantly more subtle than those in the PG.
When the two extracts are seperatly diluted to 10% in VG & Distilled Water (my preferred base mix), they are like two entirely different juices, and change more as they steep. It's hard to believe they came from the same cigar. The PG extract based juice is more "in your face", more bitter, and stronger, where the VG extract based juice is much sweeter & more subtle... I like them both, but The VG extract-based juices take FAR longer to steep before they are at their best (at least a month or more - and the larger a batch you make , the longer it takes to mature). I use the PG based extractions far more often now because they are usually pretty good after a few weeks....even in larger batches (over 100ml).
Just a few of my personal observations.....
EDIT: Just an addendum - you DO get some nicotine from the cigar extractions. Depending on the cigar, it can be significant. I prefer low nic juices now (6mg or less), and while I don't have any way to measure the nicotine level of my final extract-juices, I know that they add some nic to the concoction. I've made a couple of juices that turned into real head-spinners when I sampled them.....
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That's a good point, but the tobacco in Boba's is weak, or at least was for me. Compared to the tobaccos I've liked, Boba's isn't even a tobacco vape, its a dessert
I remember noticing just the same thing! Unfortunately I gave up extracting because the constant gunking of my coils was irking me
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