My reasons against sub-ohming

Status
Not open for further replies.

Big Me

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Aug 24, 2014
1,283
3,090
England
Right before summer of 2014, I started to see adverts for the pre-sale of the Aspire Atlantis, their sub-ohm batteries, and a string of cheap Genesis-like rebuildable atomisers. Many forum posts saying how sub-ohm was about to become mainstream in year 2015.
I am usually very keen to technological advancement and very willing to try new gear. At the same time, I am a former pipe smoker which has been "rescued" from smoking tobacco thanks to vaping.
In the following months, I have been talking to web shop dealers and B&M vape shop owners about the upcoming "novelty", and everybody seemed very excited by having new toys for a over-saturated vape market, which can count on switchers and many aficionados.
Well, this revolution of mainstream sub-ohming never come in reality. Many web and B&M dealers (at least, here in the UK) removed the Atlantis and other RBAs from the offer because it brought gigantic liabilities under two fronts: one, the battery side of the setup. A genuine IMR 18650 battery able to deliver 20+ Amps steadily and reliably is harder to find than previously tought; in the majority of cases, the setup just stop working after few uses.
The second front is the atomiser itself: there are no indication of sorts on what liquid has to be used. So customers were placing 18-24 mg/ml, 100% PG e-liquid in it, their "normal" e-liquid, ending up instantly ill. With current legislation, if a manufacturer doesn't provide correct info on a piece of equipment, the responsability falls with the seller; as the standard business insurance doesn't cover such cases of misuse, many reputable sellers just removed sub-ohming stuff from sale.
Back to my reasoning. If I want to make a gigantic cloud, I need to pump from 60 to 100 micrograms per second of e-liquid to the coil, which is from three to five times the amount flowing in a CE4 or Vivi or Nautilus. Subsequently, in order to keep the amount of nicotine intake within normality, I must use a liquid which is from three to five time weaker, around 6 mg/ml. Also the amount of aggressive PG is from three to five time more, so I must use the less "aggressive" VG -which is dehydrating tissues at lesser rate.
Therefore, those big clouds costs me in terms of e-liquid quantities, which I need to use from three to five times more $$$. And I will get the additional damage of more VG intake. One last thing: my BDC coils, properly cleaned every couple of days, lasts for a month; sub-ohm coils lifetime can be counted in hours.
All considered, the sub-ohming is a pure show-off activity, in the usual terms of "mine is bigger than yours". More technically riskier, more expensive, much less healthy. A big cloud can only be beneficial to the inner ego, not else.
Of course, this is the point of view of one... myself. I vape because I need the nic, and over the time I learned to appreciate the associated flavours. Your mileage may vary!

A few things.
1. What online retailers have withdrawn sub-ohm merchandise? The sites I buy from sell both the Subtank and the Atlantis with no problems whatsoever.

2. Are the B&M owners unable to talk to the people who are buying these items to make sure the customer is aware of the importance of using the correct battery or give them the heads up regarding nic strength? It doesn't take much to add a small warning to a webpage... How about getting a leaflet printed to give/send with every new purchase? Would that not be considered good customer service or is such a thing too much effort for the poor lambs?

3. Serious cloud chasers will use unflavoured VG - which is cheaper than any flavoured nic juice. I believe it costs £1.29 for 200ml from a nationwide chemist shop. That's not expensive by any means.

4. Fine, you don't wish to sub-ohm or chase clouds. Good for you! But there are others who do and fair play to them, if that's what they want to do.

Now, excuse me while I go blow my version of clouds (1Ω dual coil at 18W, using DIY 0.16% 50/50 flavoured juice) and enjoy every single second of it.
 

Krashman Von Stinkputin

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 31, 2013
447
871
Missouri
You're all WRONG!

And I'm right.

Now.....what are we talking about?

JM.jpg
 

Paul Williams

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Aug 28, 2013
120
94
38
Birmingham uk
Im no cloud chaser, i build .5 mostly. I used to smoke rolling tobacco with no filters. A protank cannot mimic that. A nautilus cannot mimic that. A plume veil however satisfys my needs perfectly. Some think it looks silly. Some think it looks cool. I just love the performance. to hell with what others think!
 

Verb

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 26, 2014
1,563
2,114
Eastern, PA, USA
Dude you gotz to slap some 20's on that!!!! And then get the spinner necklace that matches them!!! Or maybe a big clock...like flava flav, but it will count down the time to your next IV dose...

I can't wait for an eliquid maker to use Flava Flav as a spokes person, just because of his name.
 

mcclintock

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
  • Oct 28, 2014
    1,547
    1,787
    I don't see high-power vaping a "problem" but it does seem that high power vapers are more visible, louder, in the scene. The divide between the low end and high end is increasing rather than being bridged. And, just because someone vapes with big gear doesn't make them an "expert" ... this isn't the first subject I've seen where those who leapfrog straight into the high end don't know much about anything else.

    I think it would be good to bring the cigalike users into better low-end gear and try-before-you-buy juices.

    I don't usually bother to argue with those who say you can't get a satisfying vape on a small battery and clearo, they're so out of touch what's the use? I'm not saying thier stuff isn't nicer ...
     
    Last edited:

    Asbestos4004

    Vaping Master
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Sep 11, 2013
    6,802
    28,169
    Sugar Hill, Georgia
    As a former Marlboro smoker...I can't remember a time when I kicked sand in the face of someone smoking GPC's or maybe Mavericks. I was just glad I had a fellow smoker around.

    It blows my mind that people actually judge others based on the resistance of their coils. Its hilarious. Its right up there with the folks that think they're "better at vaping" because their stuff is more expensive or harder to obtain. "Better at vaping"? Really??? What a funny little community we have here. I, for one, am glad we all found a substitute for cigarette smoking.....whatever that substitute may be.
     

    tj99959

    ECF Guru
    ECF Veteran
  • Aug 13, 2011
    15,116
    39,600
    utah
    I don't know, I could be wrong but I cant imagine those setups kicking out the massive thick vape that I like. The thickness and volume of the vape contribute to the flavor so personally I cant see something at 8Ws ever being able to match something at 50W. That's me, I like high wattage setups at around .2-5 ohms.

    Nope, they don't. As long as I can see some vapor, that's enough. The flavor is the same however with or without a massive cloud.
    I would much rather get 3 hits/drop than use up 3 drops/hit, and have a 1600mAh battery last 16 hours.

    My point being that people are free to make their vaping as expensive as they want to. I choose efficiency instead of huge clouds. Clouds cost money!
     
    Last edited:

    TorontoOntario

    Ultra Member
    ECF Veteran
    Aug 13, 2014
    1,008
    589
    Canada
    Nope, they don't. As long as I can see some vapor, that's enough. The flavor is the same however with or without a massive cloud.
    I would much rather get 3 hits/drop than use up 3 drops/hit, and have a 1600mAh battery last 16 hours.

    My point being that people are free to make their vaping as expensive as they want to. I choose efficiency instead of huge clouds. Clouds cost money!

    Yes but the clouds contribute to the flavour. I like the thickness and large volume and feel they contribute to the flavour.
    Invisible, I love this Rdna40 with a Sub Mini to. My DeltaIIs on my Sig cause it needs more power lol. But ye the VS is niiice.
     

    tj99959

    ECF Guru
    ECF Veteran
  • Aug 13, 2011
    15,116
    39,600
    utah
    Yes but the clouds contribute to the flavour. I like the thickness and large volume and feel they contribute to the flavour.
    Invisible, I love this Rdna40 with a Sub Mini to. My DeltaIIs on my Sig cause it needs more power lol. But ye the VS is niiice.

    We will have to agree to disagree on that.
    A small bite of chocolate tastes exactly the same as the whole chocolate bar.
    So while a cloud may enhance the vaping experience for some, it has no effect on flavor.

    Again; flavor is controlled by AFR (air fuel ratio) and coil temperature, not by the volume of liquid vaporized.

    So it's kinda like asking do you sip your tea or gulp your tea. The tea tastes the same either way, but for me, the tea tastes better if I sip it. :)
     
    Last edited:

    beckdg

    ECF Guru
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Oct 1, 2013
    11,018
    35,706
    TN
    I don't see high-power vaping a "problem" but it does seem that high power vapers are more visible, louder, in the scene. The divide between the low end and high end is increasing rather than being bridged. And, just because someone vapes with big gear doesn't make them an "expert" ... this isn't the first subject I've seen where those who leapfrog straight into the high end don't know much about anything else.

    I think it would be good to bring the cigalike users into better low-end gear and try-before-you-buy juices.

    I don't usually bother to argue with those who say you can't get a satisfying vape on a small battery and clearo, they're so out of touch what's the use? I'm not saying thier stuff isn't nicer ...
    You're making a lot of sense.

    I will never say YOU can't get a satisfying vape out of x-product unless YOU say you can't get satisfaction out of something that performs more in the direction you're looking for. I think there's times we all need to be more perceptive on that level. (Myself included)

    But i sure as **** ain't getting no satisfaction out of a cigalike.

    Doesn't stop me from buying billet boxes (that work on cartos) for the family for christmas.

    If it works for them, I'm happy... and it isn't going to break. :D

    Sent from my device.
     

    TorontoOntario

    Ultra Member
    ECF Veteran
    Aug 13, 2014
    1,008
    589
    Canada
    We will have to agree to disagree on that.
    A small bite of chocolate tastes exactly the same as the whole chocolate bar.
    So while a cloud may enhance the vaping experience for some, it has no effect on flavor.
    Again; flavor is controlled by AFR (air fuel ratio) and coil temperature, not by the volume of liquid vaporized.

    So it's kinda like asking do you sip your tea or gulp your tea. The tea tastes the same either way, but for me, the tea tastes better if I sip it. :)
    I dont agree with that analogy sorry. The volume and THICKNESS of the vape do change the taste FOR ME. We shall agree to disagree I dont take anything away from you I hope you dont take anything away from me.
     

    beckdg

    ECF Guru
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Oct 1, 2013
    11,018
    35,706
    TN
    Nope, they don't. As long as I can see some vapor, that's enough. The flavor is the same however with or without a massive cloud.
    I would much rather get 3 hits/drop than use up 3 drops/hit, and have a 1600mAh battery last 16 hours.

    My point being that people are free to make their vaping as expensive as they want to. I choose efficiency instead of huge clouds. Clouds cost money!
    The other side of the coin...

    Well... for one... different setups taste different... and you can build a cloud producer to put out enough flavor that you have to cut your flavor by more than half. It's been a topic of discussion on many sub forums here. For example... same flavor... in my wife's setup... 10% to 20% flavoring... in mine... 2% to 8%.

    And on the money part... okay... Cloud junkies may go through more pre made juice at a lower nic.

    But...
    If you diy...
    And you go through a set amount of nic as most do without realizing it...
    And you're likely to drop your flavor percent...
    Even if you go through more juice, the price difference is extremely negligible as it's only pg and vg... The least of your juice expenses

    But in my case...
    I UPPED my nic level
    Started with the same nic consumption
    Dropped my flavor percent immediately
    And have gradually cut my juice consumption by 80%

    At .2 ohms my juice costs me at least 85% less than it did in a clearo or Carto tank.

    Not to mention the difference In cost from buying juice to diy...

    So if the person's goal is actually to stay off cigs and not just "blow dem cloudz boyee!!"... Then the outcome can be much different price wise.

    Sent from my device.
     

    tj99959

    ECF Guru
    ECF Veteran
  • Aug 13, 2011
    15,116
    39,600
    utah
    The other side of the coin...

    Well... for one... different setups taste different... and you can build a cloud producer to put out enough flavor that you have to cut your flavor by more than half. It's been a topic of discussion on many sub forums here. For example... same flavor... in my wife's setup... 10% to 20% flavoring... in mine... 2% to 8%.

    And on the money part... okay... Cloud junkies may go through more pre made juice at a lower nic.

    But...
    If you diy...
    And you go through a set amount of nic as most do without realizing it...
    And you're likely to drop your flavor percent...
    Even if you go through more juice, the price difference is extremely negligible as it's only pg and vg... The least of your juice expenses

    But in my case...
    I UPPED my nic level
    Started with the same nic consumption
    Dropped my flavor percent immediately
    And have gradually cut my juice consumption by 80%

    At .2 ohms my juice costs me at least 85% less than it did in a clearo or Carto tank.

    Not to mention the difference In cost from buying juice to diy...

    So if the person's goal is actually to stay off cigs and not just "blow dem cloudz boyee!!"... Then the outcome can be much different price wise.

    Sent from my device.

    Absolutely!
    That's why I use the toppers that I do for low wattage vaping.
    There is no way that the 2 ohm coil that I use in a 11mm diameter A7 would produce the same flavor in a 22mm diameter RDA at the same wattage.
    The larger chamber contains more air thus it requires more fuel & wattage to get the same flavor.
     
    Last edited:

    beckdg

    ECF Guru
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Oct 1, 2013
    11,018
    35,706
    TN
    2.5 yr wait on the nuppins and sumtns....I checked. Heehee
    Nuh uhh...

    Sumpins, yeah... but check out pdibs other thread and click on the gauging interest link to input what you want as far as nuppins. The more the merrier. He's considering doing another run last time I checked.

    And the dublin... dunno where that's at, but I think that's gonna be a slow and low production in favor of his bread and butter Sumpins.

    Sent from my device.
     

    Croak

    Ultra Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Nov 13, 2012
    2,582
    4,449
    60
    Right behind you...
    As a lifelong gamer who has seen the PS vs Xbox thing beat to death over and over again this is very true. I never did understand that either in the end we all were gamers.

    That's because both camps are misguided. PC gaming is clearly the superior choice. :)

    (As a veteran game designer, the whole console vs PC thing just cracks me up because, well, I've always used a PC to develop on, even console and mobile games).
     
    Status
    Not open for further replies.

    Users who are viewing this thread