Name change

[Bobby Martin]

While still young, I feel ECF could/should think about removing the word cigarette from its title. Not only does this term stir negative feelings for those battling to overcome their addiction to actual cigarettes, it also unfairly groups vaping with smoking. By definition a PV is not an electronic cigarette:

"A cigarette (from the French for "small cigar". Cigar comes, through the Spanish andPortuguese cigarro, from the Mayan siyar; "to smoke rolled tobacco leaves")" - Wikipedia

Thoughts?

 

[rolygate]

True. But then nobody would find us on the web, so we would disappear. This is probably not the preferred outcome

The trouble is that 'ecig' in one form or another is it - no one has heard of PV, outside of our community. So if we changed to something else, it means from this day on hardly anyone else will be able to find us. Just the way it is


[edit]

While still young, I feel ECF could/should think about .........

ECF is ancient now

Started in 2007, the first ecig forum, still the biggest, and it's probably bigger than people realise: 4,000 posts a day, 120,000 posts a month, 6 million posts, 250,000 pages, 1,500 people online at the same time in the evenings, etc etc. Small changes we can do; big changes - hmm...

 

[the_vape_nerd]

True. But then nobody would find us on the web, so we would disappear. This is probably not the preferred outcome

The trouble is that 'ecig' in one form or another is it - no one has heard of PV, outside of our community. So if we changed to something else, it means from this day on hardly anyone else will be able to find us. Just the way it is

Very much agree. Who cares about the semantics? Get them here is what it's all about.

 

[rolygate]

There are also benefits to keeping the term 'e-cigarette', since it makes it very clear that this is an alternative to smoking, and obviously a consumer product. See:

http://www.eccauk.org/index.php/news-and-blog/why-dont-we-get-rid-of-the-name-ecigarette.html

 

[bigpman]

http://www.eccauk.org/index.php/news-and-blog/why-dont-we-get-rid-of-the-name-ecigarette.html

Excellent post!

 

[rolygate]

Excellent post!

Hey BigP,

I shifted it all over to ECCA as they will get more publicity for that post

It started as a couple of sentences - but the finished result is more use if it isn't buried in a thread here (been wanting to do something on that subject for a while).

Sorry to have to edit the quote/link in your post after that change, hope you don't mind.

 

[the_vape_nerd]

That is very on point and well written. I posted a few days ago regarding my own personal hoarding of nic based e-liquid and a lot of people called my line of thinking "conspiracy theory".

I don't know how things are going in the UK, but just recently in the U.S., every little gas station and convenience store is now selling very cheap disposable e-cigs. With wider exposure and gaining popularity, the pressure is going to mount here, and fast.

 

[ohai]

I found this forum while researching "e-cigarettes" because I needed more info, and that was the only search term I knew to go by, so I'm really glad this place wasn't called the PV-forum.com. I'll agree that I like the term PV better now, but it isn't one I knew when I needed to find this forum most.

 

[rolygate]

@jbankston
There isn't really any need to hoard - well, any more than the average vaper does, with 50 backups...

It's true that the FDA will start down the road of trying to put ecigs out of business, as soon as they can get their ducks in a row, because that is their job. Even before the court cases start up we know they'll have to leave 2-piece carto tobacco flavor models sold in B&M alone because that section of the industry has too much financial muscle now, and can't be quietly buried. The question is what else has the financial clout to survive.

However many things have to happen first: they have to give notice of regulations; the trade complain; the FDA bring in the disputed regulation regardless; the trade take them to court; one side wins; the other side gives notice of an appeal; the original decision is either upheld or overturned; the losing party takes it to a higher court; and so on.

It doesn't happen overnight.

What this means is that if, for example, e-liquid is banned (as the FDA will try to do at some stage), then there will be months of wrangling before that either comes into effect or is overturned. If the regulation stands, then US firms will go offshore in order to stay in business, and supplies will be mailed in - much as you can buy meds from India with no problem even though they are 'banned' here. Web hosts and warehousing in Mexico etc will start to do a nice trade. Laws are no use unless they can be enforced, and laws preventing people from buying things they want are the least successful of all. A law preventing access to things that people have an absolute right to, by any possible moral or ethical judgement, would not be likely to be a tremendous success. There is a finite limit to corruption and eventually it goes too far to succeed, as it needs to stay out of sight.

So don't worry be happy.

 

[the_vape_nerd]

@jbankston
There isn't really any need to hoard - well, any more than the average vaper does, with 50 backups...

It's true that the FDA will start down the road of trying to put ecigs out of business, as soon as they can get their ducks in a row, because that is their job. Even before the court cases start up we know they'll have to leave 2-piece carto tobacco flavor models sold in B&M alone because that section of the industry has too much financial muscle now, and can't be quietly buried. The question is what else has the financial clout to survive.

However many things have to happen first: they have to give notice of regulations; the trade complain; the FDA bring in the disputed regulation regardless; the trade take them to court; one side wins; the other side gives notice of an appeal; the original decision is either upheld or overturned; the losing party takes it to a higher court; and so on.

It doesn't happen overnight.

What this means is that if, for example, e-liquid is banned (as the FDA will try to do at some stage), then there will be months of wrangling before that either comes into effect or is overturned. If the regulation stands, then US firms will go offshore in order to stay in business, and supplies will be mailed in - much as you can buy meds from India with no problem even though they are 'banned' here. Web hosts and warehousing in Mexico etc will start to do a nice trade. Laws are no use unless they can be enforced, and laws preventing people from buying things they want are the least successful of all. A law preventing access to things that people have an absolute right to, by any possible moral or ethical judgement, would not be likely to be a tremendous success. There is a finite limit to corruption and eventually it goes too far to succeed, as it needs to stay out of sight.

So don't worry be happy.

Well, I'm not so sure about that. I don't see people buying ......... through the mail from off shore vendors. I know that in 2009, the FDA and customs were holding up shipments though. The state of New York is considering a ban on all sales, even through the mail, into the state.

 

[the_vape_nerd]

I guess you can't post the real word for MJ here but thats what I meant. No one is buying a few ounces of MJ from offshore and having it fed exed to them.

 

[rolygate]

Yes, understood.

But there is a difference between blocking imports of materials in different legal classes. If border controls wanted to shut down all imports of anything possibly subject to some form of regulation, that would create a massive extra workload. In effect the FDA would be transferring their workload to border control / US mail. There would be internal disputes about this, as to who is going to pay. This is why you can have meds posted in: who is going to pay Border and Mail to search everything, when there are no specific laws banning such things, only a departmental regulation?

The US ecig market is $250m now, possibly more. Basically every single packet from anywhere would have to be opened. What about when the market reaches $1bn? And $2bn? The mail and border would be need to be shut down in order to cope. Realistically, that is not going to happen. Bad laws don't work. They might stay in play for a while but sooner or later they have to be reversed or ignored. Prohibition doesn't work if millions of people ignore it and most of the rest of the population also think it's wrong. And a form of prohibition that is directly related to corruption cannot last for ever.

There was some sort of moral argument to support an alcohol ban; there would be nothing available to call on when the row begins over banning products that save people's lives, just to protect pharma's income from drugs used to treat sick smokers, and to maintain cigarette sales that shore up bankrupt cities like New York. It will be exposed as legalised mass murder and would, eventually, be a step too far.

In the long term the future of ecigs is assured. In the medium term there will be a lot of pain. Right now there is no need to hoard, you'll have notice of supply issues before they become critical.

 

[mmrock]

oh i dont think they will ban nic liquid, they will just tax it to death. ( maybe ban imports of it. package sniffing dogs at customs, trained to sniff out that evil nicotine! .. lol who knows..). imagine paying $50 for a 10ml. thats the equivalent of a carton of smokes ( according to all the vendors saying 1ml = 1 pack of cigs....), and in michigan, thats how much a carton costs. they might even charge more, because they want us to go back to smoking, ( that will make big pharma, big tobacco, big government and the FDA very happy campers.. )

@jbankston
There isn't really any need to hoard - well, any more than the average vaper does, with 50 backups...

It's true that the FDA will start down the road of trying to put ecigs out of business, as soon as they can get their ducks in a row, because that is their job. Even before the court cases start up we know they'll have to leave 2-piece carto tobacco flavor models sold in B&M alone because that section of the industry has too much financial muscle now, and can't be quietly buried. The question is what else has the financial clout to survive.

However many things have to happen first: they have to give notice of regulations; the trade complain; the FDA bring in the disputed regulation regardless; the trade take them to court; one side wins; the other side gives notice of an appeal; the original decision is either upheld or overturned; the losing party takes it to a higher court; and so on.

It doesn't happen overnight.

What this means is that if, for example, e-liquid is banned (as the FDA will try to do at some stage), then there will be months of wrangling before that either comes into effect or is overturned. If the regulation stands, then US firms will go offshore in order to stay in business, and supplies will be mailed in - much as you can buy meds from India with no problem even though they are 'banned' here. Web hosts and warehousing in Mexico etc will start to do a nice trade. Laws are no use unless they can be enforced, and laws preventing people from buying things they want are the least successful of all. A law preventing access to things that people have an absolute right to, by any possible moral or ethical judgement, would not be likely to be a tremendous success. There is a finite limit to corruption and eventually it goes too far to succeed, as it needs to stay out of sight.

So don't worry be happy.

 

[mmrock]

when that time comes, even before the 'critical' point, i bet every vendor of nic juice will be constantly .. OUT OF STOCK...

Right now there is no need to hoard, you'll have notice of supply issues before they become critical.

 

[bigpman]

oh i dont think they will ban nic liquid, they will just tax it to death. ( maybe ban imports of it. package sniffing dogs at customs, trained to sniff out that evil nicotine! .. lol who knows..). imagine paying $50 for a 10ml. thats the equivalent of a carton of smokes ( according to all the vendors saying 1ml = 1 pack of cigs....), and in michigan, thats how much a carton costs. they might even charge more, because they want us to go back to smoking, ( that will make big pharma, big tobacco, big government and the FDA very happy campers.. )

Scary thought!! Might need to start stocking up on DYI afterall...never thought of it like that....

 

[bigpman]

when that time comes, even before the 'critical' point, i bet every vendor of nic juice will be constantly .. OUT OF STOCK...

I hope so!! you might be right, however, the government tends to work REAL slow....LOL

 

[mmrock]

yeah.. maybe i'm exaggerating a bit. lol ..but we never know what might happen.