At the house a good dripper is so convenient, if you haven't tried one just do it. Tanks outside the home are a necessary evil imho. I do envy those who can build a solid dependable KFL but I just don't trust my builds. When I build one right I really enjoy it, and it reminds my of a magma they are similar in many ways. We all have different preferences and that's all the point of the post was a good starting point for a newbie to get into natural tobaccos without getting burned.
Natural Tobaccos - Part Deux
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At the house a good dripper is so convenient, if you haven't tried one just do it. Tanks outside the home are a necessary evil imho. I do envy those who can build a solid dependable KFL but I just don't trust my builds. When I build one right I really enjoy it, and it reminds my of a magma they are similar in many ways. We all have different preferences and that's all the point of the post was a good starting point for a newbie to get into natural tobaccos without getting burned.
Another great interview, Ray. I've been watching your YouTube channel a lot lately, so this is just a quick shout-out..and your intro music variety is really nice.
Goodejuice totally changed their website yesterday. Kudos on a great update with improved usability!
For all you ex-pipe smokers as well as DIYers I have a question. When you purchase flavored pipe tobacco, as an example say caramel creme cavendish, is the tobacco flavored with liquid extracts such as those used in baking/cooking or whatever?
Um, yeah. This guy doesn't know ANYTHING about tobacco. Good grief. Hey many of us didnt either, but out if curiosity if nothing else we put in some work to find out. For a vendor selling the stuff it is just irresponsible not to! Plus, how do you sell a product to the masses without having any idea what is was made of or how it was manufactured??? How can a guy expect me to buy a juice he frankenjuiced without any knowledge of the ingredients or manufacturing process?!?!
At least they started with flavors that are proven winners in e juice, let alone NET's...chocolate, citrus, darth nanner...was raccoon piss extract out of stock? ::criminy shudder::
Yeah, no thanks.
Below is a link to a short but illuminating article about flavorings for retail tobacco and how they are applied. It may not answer your question entirely, but it'll take you down the road in that direction:
Casings and Top Dressings
Seriously the more I think about this the more it chaps my heinie. This guy could be selling cyanide juice for all he knows.
Great branding, nice packaging, seems like a decent guy, POX ON THE INDUSTRY. One of these days one of these ignorant doosher is going to poison someone and all vapers will pay the price.
The level of irreverent irresponsibility in some of these young startups boggles the mind and enrages me.
Great branding, nice packaging, seems like a decent guy, POX ON THE INDUSTRY. One of these days one of these ignorant doosher is going to poison someone and all vapers will pay the price.
The level of irreverent irresponsibility in some of these young startups boggles the mind and enrages me.
Ok. I give in, here's my 2 cents.
Slippery Slopes
First, some general housekeeping of the side issues.
The right to self determination and responsibility does not come without heavy burden. Often, out of convenience (when the effort and time needed to educate ourselves in order for us to make informed choices on the multitude of issues that face us would leave no time for much else) or too often, laziness, we delegate those responsibilities. We elect representatives who, for the same reasons we delegated our burden to them, create agencies. I am adamantly opposed to promoting AEMSA as either a reasonable guardian of my health and safety, nor as a better alternative to government bureaucracy. If my choice is between a private exclusive member association or an agency that is held responsible to my elected representative, I'll take the later.
I'll skip commenting on the effort to force membership to AEMSA.
Secondly, the conundrum.
I can refuse to take the easy, knee jerk, route, which is to throw the Carrie Nation Crowd (CNC) what certainly appears to be an obvious bone (2,3-BUTANEDIONE/DIACETYL, etc,), BUT my refusal to make an offering would likely only result in giving CNC a stone upon which to hone their hatchets.
OR
I can try to placate the CNC and throw the bone. If I do, I do it knowing that without careful prior deliberation, I may have severely crippled myself in all future debates. That the standards by which I judged that bone to be a bone will set the precedent by which all further bones will be determined.
Next, the current issue of 2,3-BUTANEDIONE
Other than the setting of precedent issue, a ban (per AEMSA, if I read their rules correctly) of diacetyl isn't an Issue for me. I don't like custard, caramel, or buttery taste or feel in my juices. That's the reason for my intense dislike for Vita Bella. Even if I did like them, I think the current evidence concerning Diacetyl is sufficient that it would cause me to avoid them until further studies are available. But it should be my choice. As banning (or required disclosure) is the issue, I have some questions:
What standard is to be employed before we ban a substance? Is there no safe level at which it could be responsibly used? (Are there no studies, no studies of its affect on what must be thousands of short order and fry cooks who have essentially been vaping diacetyl for hours each day for years?) Is diacetyl, based on these unknown standards, so hazardous that a notification and warning that it is an ingredient insufficient?
Finally, relating all of this to NETs ( an aside: I think NTEs is more accurate, but I can't pronounce it, so NETs it is).
Whatever standards are used to determine the actions that are eventually taken in regards to diacetyl, will most certainly be employed when determining future actions regarding all other juice components. Health issues concerning diacetyl have only arisen in the last 15 years and studies are, at best, sparse. On the other hand, 60+ years of studies of the harmful affects of tobacco are voluminous and comprehensive. The one study that I am aware of that tested tobacco vaping juices is damning. No one with two synapses to rub together should conclude that NETs are not hazardous, leave alone, safe. I can rationalize, but I'm not stupid. If NETs are subjected to the same standards that appear to be employed regarding diacetyl, then it's going to be a closed and shut case for NETs.
Conclusion
Take the time to think before you act. Make rational, well reasoned decisions. Create sound, valid, useful standards that balance your/our concerns for safety with our pursuit of our vice. Otherwise, prepare to Play a game of Thermal nuclear War.
Slippery Slopes
First, some general housekeeping of the side issues.
The right to self determination and responsibility does not come without heavy burden. Often, out of convenience (when the effort and time needed to educate ourselves in order for us to make informed choices on the multitude of issues that face us would leave no time for much else) or too often, laziness, we delegate those responsibilities. We elect representatives who, for the same reasons we delegated our burden to them, create agencies. I am adamantly opposed to promoting AEMSA as either a reasonable guardian of my health and safety, nor as a better alternative to government bureaucracy. If my choice is between a private exclusive member association or an agency that is held responsible to my elected representative, I'll take the later.
I'll skip commenting on the effort to force membership to AEMSA.
Secondly, the conundrum.
I can refuse to take the easy, knee jerk, route, which is to throw the Carrie Nation Crowd (CNC) what certainly appears to be an obvious bone (2,3-BUTANEDIONE/DIACETYL, etc,), BUT my refusal to make an offering would likely only result in giving CNC a stone upon which to hone their hatchets.
OR
I can try to placate the CNC and throw the bone. If I do, I do it knowing that without careful prior deliberation, I may have severely crippled myself in all future debates. That the standards by which I judged that bone to be a bone will set the precedent by which all further bones will be determined.
Next, the current issue of 2,3-BUTANEDIONE
Other than the setting of precedent issue, a ban (per AEMSA, if I read their rules correctly) of diacetyl isn't an Issue for me. I don't like custard, caramel, or buttery taste or feel in my juices. That's the reason for my intense dislike for Vita Bella. Even if I did like them, I think the current evidence concerning Diacetyl is sufficient that it would cause me to avoid them until further studies are available. But it should be my choice. As banning (or required disclosure) is the issue, I have some questions:
What standard is to be employed before we ban a substance? Is there no safe level at which it could be responsibly used? (Are there no studies, no studies of its affect on what must be thousands of short order and fry cooks who have essentially been vaping diacetyl for hours each day for years?) Is diacetyl, based on these unknown standards, so hazardous that a notification and warning that it is an ingredient insufficient?
Finally, relating all of this to NETs ( an aside: I think NTEs is more accurate, but I can't pronounce it, so NETs it is).
Whatever standards are used to determine the actions that are eventually taken in regards to diacetyl, will most certainly be employed when determining future actions regarding all other juice components. Health issues concerning diacetyl have only arisen in the last 15 years and studies are, at best, sparse. On the other hand, 60+ years of studies of the harmful affects of tobacco are voluminous and comprehensive. The one study that I am aware of that tested tobacco vaping juices is damning. No one with two synapses to rub together should conclude that NETs are not hazardous, leave alone, safe. I can rationalize, but I'm not stupid. If NETs are subjected to the same standards that appear to be employed regarding diacetyl, then it's going to be a closed and shut case for NETs.
Conclusion
Take the time to think before you act. Make rational, well reasoned decisions. Create sound, valid, useful standards that balance your/our concerns for safety with our pursuit of our vice. Otherwise, prepare to Play a game of Thermal nuclear War.
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I know that CravinVapes isn't a popular vendor here... I've tried them and found them meh ... sort of weak in the flavor department but the taste was still ok, they just weren't my own cup of tea ( or NET as it were )... still I got the following in an email and thought I'd share it.
As mentioned I do use my dripper although not as often as my tanks. In fact I currently am dripping Black Cavendish
Furthermore, If their source for extracts is Tobacco-Extract, that company has no footprint that I can find. No YP listing, No corporate or LLC registration with the State and nothing in the BBB. That's a "no buy" for me every time.
I believe you are referring to me. I am not a scholar by any means, and i don't think i am a propagandist for any group or organization either ( least of all AEMSA, which i had very little familiarity with prior to this discussion ). At least not intentionally.
It was the first dictionary definition of bureaucracy that came up, when i googled the term. I wanted to be sure that my understanding of the term ( loosely, policy making groups comprised of unelected government officials ) is correct before i responded to the post. Someone, asked if by "we" the author of the letter meant "gubermint", and i responded that i don't believe he does. Then to a post commenting that we don't need more bureaucracy, i responded that i don't think voluntary regulatory groups are considered a bureaucracy. I didn't intend to be a blatant propagandist for any group or agency, and i'm sorry if you feel the credibility of my argument is undermined, by referencing a dictionary definition of the term 'bureaucracy'. I really don't have any agenda, besides trying to get more transparency and honesty from the vendors we purchase e-liquid from.
I am sorry that you feel so aggrieved, it was never my intention. I honestly didn't know that AEMSA generates such controversy, and that there is a political aspect to this argument. To me it was about safety and transparency. If the standards set by AEMSA ( or any other standards that give me a little more peace of mind than i currently have ) are adhered to, i don't care who the regulatory agency is, governmental or other.
Confused, by the tone of your post.
I found that if you inhale the vapor directly across your tongue the Virginias come through more. There is a zesty-sweet virginia taste. I have never tasted Lemon Grass, but that is the word combination that comes to mind. There is definitely a bright Virginia in the blend. It plays far enough back that with the proper inhale technique you never have to directly taste it. You can experience the effect it has on taming the Latakia and brightening the Orientals however. The Virginia isn't the brightly sweet kind you can find in something like Dunhill Early Morning or fresh Orlik Gold Slice.
Sincerrly, there was no tone meant to be struck. It was meant to be a simple expression of my thoughts, nothing more. My issue regarding the definition of "bureaucracy" was and is with the source's author. That definition is more accurately an opinion than factual and it has become common technique to propagandize by surreptitiously interjecting opinion to a recitation of fact. Fine I guess, unless it's presented as a scholarly work. I googled it, and my ire is with the Oxford English dictionary. At least they didn't add "distinguished by impersonal relationships" as another dictionary does. I apologize to you. I read too much into it. I will delete that.
You have every right to freely promote your positions and opinions. I do disagree with you and others on this issue and hope I have effectively explained why. There is no reason for you to apologize to me. I am not aggrieved. I am irritated that this ended up being played out here.
If some people would do a search before they posted an essay, they might find that the diacetyl issue has been quite substantially vetted months ago.
Edit: Even my apologies stink.
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Now I think I understand... If we were to be regulated, you would rather have the government instead of a third-party? So Washington should take over UL too? FDA over self-regulation?
I'm going to be sixty-four years old this coming Tuesday. I smoked for fifty years until two years ago when I bought my first PV. I don't miss smoking and I feel 10x better for it. As far as safety goes, it's a quality of life issue for me. As far as I know I haven't poisoned myself vaping and I enjoy it because of the variety of tastes and nicotine delivery. If someone comes along with an in depth, peer reviewed study telling us such and such is bad for us, then maybe I would take steps to reduce my intake of whatever substance was being studied.
That said, it is still a quality of life issue for me. I know that flavored tobaccos are meant to be smoked, not extracted and vaped. There may be an health issue there, but until someone does a study on them telling us they are unsafe, I'm going to keep vaping them. Quality of life, meaning that I enjoy extracting as a hobby and vaping as an enjoyable behavior modification. If it kills me ten years from now, well smoking might have killed me eight years from now.
That's just my philosophy. You younger folks may see it differently and that is perfectly understandable.
That said, it is still a quality of life issue for me. I know that flavored tobaccos are meant to be smoked, not extracted and vaped. There may be an health issue there, but until someone does a study on them telling us they are unsafe, I'm going to keep vaping them. Quality of life, meaning that I enjoy extracting as a hobby and vaping as an enjoyable behavior modification. If it kills me ten years from now, well smoking might have killed me eight years from now.
That's just my philosophy. You younger folks may see it differently and that is perfectly understandable.
I mixed up a 4ml batch of my Room 101San Andres. It is 100% PG and nic free. It shows serious potential. The big earthy San Andres wrapper is the star of the show. Notes of hay and sweetness pop out with no real spice to speak of. There is also a healthy dose of what I consider "classic" Honduran cigar tobacco in the back ground. With two months it will either be awesome or a jumbled mess.
All good Papa,
Prior to your explanatory post, I couldn't understand why you thought this topic is or has the potential to be controversial. To me it was simply a matter of vendor accountability/transparency. The real issue wasn't ( at least to me ) the dangers of diketones, and at what doses, or whether they should be banned, and what else this could lead to etc ... I need to educate myself a great deal more on these topics.
What had concerned me was that from the 74 % of sample liquids tested positive for diketones, a majority had been specifically declared diketone ( or at least diacetyl) free by vendors. AEMSA was just a vehicle in my mind, to ensure this doesn't happen when i purchase a liquid, so that at the very least i can make an informed decision, whatever it may be. I would feel better if the rest of the standards ( nicotine accuracy, clean rooms, labeling etc.. ) were being adhered to as well.
I understand now ( kinda ! ) where you are coming from. As to the accuracy of the dictionary description of "bureaucracy", no longer relevant imo, now that you know i had no hidden motive in it's reference.
This is my last post on this topic on this thread, or any other for that matter until i do a lot more research
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