Natural Tobaccos - Part Deux

[billherbst]

Custards. Well until someone comes out with NECs that is.

Wow. Naturally-extracted custard. Sounds delicious. And evil. LOL. No diacetyl, just sugar and fat.

 

[EleanorR]

Today was a great day for me as it's been one year since I had my last smoke. Truth be told, only had it because I paid over $10 for the last pack I bought. Really didn't need it as the last one I had before it was on Christmas 2013. But being cheap, couldn't see wasting the 20 cents

A [belated] Happy First Vapeversary to you, Vic!!

 

[67Tele]

Happy Anniversary Vicman! First year is a big deal!

Congrats and Keep On Keeping On

 

[Dusty_D]

Custards. Well until someone comes out with NECs that is.

Wow. Naturally-extracted custard. Sounds delicious. And evil. LOL. No diacetyl, just sugar and fat.

I added a bit of a Blueberry Custard that I had on hand to a KFL filled with MVJ's Blue Danube..

I could get used to this..

 

[AnthonyB]

maltol (used sparingly)

That's what I like about this thread. Gods drop in occasionally like it ain't no thing.


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[AnthonyB]

Glad to see you're not giving up on vaping. I say that as your reviews have been an education to the finer points of cigars for me and help me to know what flavor profiles to look for in certain types of leafs, wrappers, filler tobaccos, ect... Don't know about anyone else but, as someone who has recently became a fan of cigar nets, that information is priceless.

As for falling off the wagon, don't beat yourself up over it. It's not about the couple that you smoked, it's more about the hundreds you didn't cause you were vaping them instead. Guess what I'm trying to say is don't give up Mike, the wagon has more than enough room for ya.

Hope there is room for 2.


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[AnthonyB]

Anyone who spends much time on ECF sees this bit of "traditional" wisdom repeated over and over, almost always accompanied by the statement that VG produces more vapor than PG (as Anthony wrote).

With no disrespect intended toward Anthony, I no longer accept the assertion that PG conveys flavor better than VG. Numerous posters I respect on the DIY forums have challenged that assumption as well.

I agree that VG produces more/thicker vapor, but I don't find VG an "inferior" carrier for flavor. Flavorings do take longer to distribute or dissolve into VG than PG. The overall vaping experience of VG versus PG may be slightly different, but that's due, I think, to other characteristics of each base liquid, such as viscosity, rather than ability to convey flavor, per se.

YMMV, of course.

Could be right Bill, but in my personal experience, VG dominant juice is harder to work with because of its thickness and the sweetness of it isn't conducive to a faithful reproduction of the flavours inherent in the extract of juice.

My comment to Loulou was a quick nippy statement made right before jumping off a train as a simple explanation as to why I mix PG in my Walkers extracts.

I think an assertion that VG does not diminish flavour or an accurate representation of flavour needs to come with some caveats. For a newcomer to vaping I tend to stick to basic maxims when educating them to give them a formative basis to help them reach their personal sweet spot as they navigate through the world of vaping.

Holding constant other factors like steeping time, quality of VG and PG and setup, I believe PG is a better translator of flavour than VG based on my personal experience only.

However, I respect your experience in this regard given your extensive experience with extraction and the sheer multitude of juices you have samples in many different formats.


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[billherbst]

Could be right Bill, but in my personal experience, VG dominant juice is harder to work with because of its thickness and the sweetness of it isn't conducive to a faithful reproduction of the flavours inherent in the extract of juice.

My comment to Loulou was a quick nippy statement made right before jumping off a train as a simple explanation as to why I mix PG in my Walkers extracts.

I think an assertion that VG does not diminish flavour or an accurate representation of flavour needs to come with some caveats. For a newcomer to vaping I tend to stick to basic maxims when educating them to give them a formative basis to help them reach their personal sweet spot as they navigate through the world of vaping.

Holding constant other factors like steeping time, quality of VG and PG and setup, I believe PG is a better translator of flavour than VG based on my personal experience only.

However, I respect your experience in this regard given your extensive experience with extraction and the sheer multitude of juices you have samples in many different formats.

Anthony,

I understand very well that my post represents a minority opinion.

I agree that the inherent sweetness of VG is a relevant issue. PG is definitely more neutral. I can easily see that, with some specific flavorings or types of flavorings, that difference might be meaningful in providing an accurate vehicle for flavor.

In my own DIY, I'm all over the map with PG/VG base blend ratios---50/50, 70/30, the "German" formula of 60/40/10 (with the 10 being distilled water), 40/60, 20/80, to 100% VG with some VG-based flavorings. The one thing I don't ever do with my DIY flavored juices is use 100% PG. Somehow that just doesn't work for me.

With natural tobacco extracts specifically, I have no doubt that VG alters the flavor profile of the extracts.

 

[MikeNice81]

Welcome, you're going to love NETS, even better if you have an RDA, and can build coils...easy peasy.



Also just got some Cult; Blood Red Moon pipe tobacco in the mail and have it steeping....smells wonderful.

I've been hearing good things about the Cult cigars and their quality. If you like cherry aromatics it should probably turn out pretty darn good.

 

[MikeNice81]

100% VG just doesn't work for me. I get this weird burnt sugar taste no matter which juice delivery system I choose. The VG also seems to mute the brightest and darkest flavors. It is kind of like listening to a 96kbs MP3 in my opinion. Yeah, you get enough to recognize it but it ain't nearly as full of vibrancy. For me 60pg-40vg or 70pg-30vg is the sweet spot.

100% pg has no body and feels very flat. It might have more flavor, but it isn't really any better than 100% vg just really different.

 

[fouroulou]

Could be right Bill, but in my personal experience, VG dominant juice is harder to work with because of its thickness and the sweetness of it isn't conducive to a faithful reproduction of the flavours inherent in the extract of juice.

My comment to Loulou was a quick nippy statement made right before jumping off a train as a simple explanation as to why I mix PG in my Walkers extracts.

I think an assertion that VG does not diminish flavour or an accurate representation of flavour needs to come with some caveats. For a newcomer to vaping I tend to stick to basic maxims when educating them to give them a formative basis to help them reach their personal sweet spot as they navigate through the world of vaping.

Holding constant other factors like steeping time, quality of VG and PG and setup, I believe PG is a better translator of flavour than VG based on my personal experience only.

However, I respect your experience in this regard given your extensive experience with extraction and the sheer multitude of juices you have samples in many different formats.


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This is why I would have been interested to hear more about how you experience the difference between Walker's as is, and Walker's + pg.

For the record I am not exactly a newcomer to vaping, thankfully got off the stinkies in May 2013 (so compared to many not exactly a veteran either). I know the general maxim, but since Ken extracts in pure VG I don't think the rule of thumb is necessarily relevant. The added PG is in this case a diluent, but might well bring out other notes in the liquids. I like their subtle and nuanced quality as they come, and personally I prefer heavy VG for general vaping experience, but I do feel that some of Walker's liquids come out a bit sweeter than I would like due to the heavy VG. Just curious as to whether the PG makes them "brighter," which is not something I would seek, but which others might.

 

[UnclePsyko]

100% VG just doesn't work for me. I get this weird burnt sugar taste no matter which juice delivery system I choose. The VG also seems to mute the brightest and darkest flavors. It is kind of like listening to a 96kbs MP3 in my opinion. Yeah, you get enough to recognize it but it ain't nearly as full of vibrancy. For me 60pg-40vg or 70pg-30vg is the sweet spot.

100% pg has no body and feels very flat. It might have more flavor, but it isn't really any better than 100% vg just really different.

Heh... I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought that! I ordered a few small bottles of high VG NETs and it was almost like a tobacco brulee. I ended up finishing them diluted to about 50/50.
I didn't notice that back when the ProTank Mini was all the rave, but since RDA/RTA systems came along, it seems to be a bit more pronounced.
Juices that are designed to be on the sweet side work well in VG... but something with layers and earthy nuances seem to be better experienced with a higher PG ratio (Just in my opinion guys...) with my sweet spot right around a 70%PG.
I haven't given up on VG for a flavor base though, I'm gonna need to experiment a bit.
Anyone know off the top of your heads any NET vendors that use a VG flavor base in their mix?

 

[AnthonyB]

Thank you to those who have given me some feedback about Ethervapes.

So far, there appears to be a unanimous support for Bright Burley other than Confederate. I was going to order a 10ml bottle am going to increase that to 30 mls. I love a good burley. Confederate, Top Leaf and Gold Leaf in 30 ml bottles as well are going into the cart.

Midnight Lite, Vanilla, Virginia, Nomad, Vanilla Skye and Dark Skye in 10 ml sizes.

For all those international NET vapers who might be interested in Ethervapes NETs, I have been advised by Vash that an international shipping option is being explored and should they go ahead with it, I believe it won't be that long before it is up and running.

Regards

The Bright Burley is excellent. Vanilla Skye is one of my faves. I have had both Gold Leaf anf Top Leaf and both would be in the permanent stash if I didn't have all these wonderful home extractions. Dark Skys is one I just tried recently and had to order a bigger bottle. Also just received Confederate but at only 1 week old I have not cracked it open yet. I need to try the Pure Virginia...

 

[AnthonyB]

I had a feeling about that, Clnire! I didn't want to disrespect William by assuming he was Vash, and not William. I figured someone would let me know sooner or later

Anthony, you do realize William IS Vash? No disrespect intended, just not sure you know that.

 

[AnthonyB]

Yes also got London, The Blond, and Alcazar - was tempted to try more but on first orders I limit myself in quantity until I know firsthand that I like the vendor (now I know). Paris was really the standout for me, but I do enjoy the London. Alcazar is a nice vape but so far nothing more, I'll let it sit for a while and see what happens. When I tried the Blond it didn't agree with me, but will try it again after some more steep time. Sorry, I know that's not very informative, but my memory is crap. If I don't describe a liquid as I'm vaping it all is lost...

Does VulcanVape ever carry these in lower than 11mg? Just a bit overwhelming for me on a dripper.

Loulou,

It appears from the site that 11mg is the lowest nic level you can order at.

Here is the Want2Vape section on the site for your convenience:

Want2Vape : Vulcan Vape

Regards

 

[fouroulou]

For all those international NET vapers who might be interested in Ethervapes NETs, I have been advised by William that an international shipping option is being explored and should they go ahead with it, I believe it won't be that long before it is up and running.

Regards

hurrah! good news for us int'l folk indeed

 

[AnthonyB]

Oh well, would have liked to have seen the longer version of the post A lot of people here responded saying that this rule of thumb is not always true - I agree it's not necessarily true, but if in your experience adding PG to Walkers gives you better flavor I certainly believe you. (Can we already shorten "taste is subjective" to TIS?)

Unfortunately this is a moot point for the near future, Ken is on a kind of hiatus due to a new job in the non-vape world. All those lakes of extract just sitting there waiting to be mixed bottled and sent...

Loulou,

I will try and give you the longer version, on Tapatalk even.

Walkers Tobaccos ("WT") based on what Ken told me, are extracted in a VG or VG/PG base. Once the maceration is ready he filters the extracted tobacco liquid to create an extract.

Now here is where Kens methods differ from other vendors - other NET vendors, actually, all of them sell their final NET liquid after diluting the extract with flavorless PG/VG or both.

Ken, on the other hand used an unorthodox and unusual method of bottling the extract for final consumption. Apparently Kens extracts don't get diluted at all and based on this I surmise it is possible he is macerating his tobacco in a solvent (PG or VG) which already has nicotine in it.

The reason why all or most NET vendors dilute their extract is to reduce the gunk and lighten the flavour saturation (presumably)

This brings me to the main reason why I dilute Kens liquids with PG. Quite simply, it's an extract and extracts that are not diluted are over powering, pungent causing the flavours to be muddled.

Complexity, nuance and definition or separation of flavours is optimised by diluting the extract to a certain degree, usually between 15-25%.

The reason I use PG to dilute WT juices is because I am a proponent that PG carries flavour better but I would suggest that diluting WT in PG or VG would be beneficial to the flavor profile in the juice but I prefer PG to create a mix of PG and VG, given the VG is 100% in the cigar extracts. If nothing else, it will reduce gunking to more acceptable levels in line with other marketable NETs.




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[fouroulou]

Loulou,

I will try and give you the longer version, on Tapatalk even.

Walkers Tobaccos ("WT") based on what Ken told me, are extracted in a VG or VG/PG base. Once the maceration is ready he filters the extracted tobacco liquid to create an extract.

Now here is where Kens methods differ from other vendors - other NET vendors, actually, all of them sell their final NET liquid after diluting the extract with flavorless PG/VG or both.

Ken, on the other hand used an unorthodox and unusual method of bottling the extract for final consumption. Apparently Kens extracts don't get diluted at all and based on this I surmise it is possible he is macerating his tobacco in a solvent (PG or VG) which already has nicotine in it.

The reason why all or most NET vendors dilute their extract is to reduce the gunk and lighten the flavour saturation (presumably)

This brings me to the main reason why I dilute Kens liquids with PG. Quite simply, it's an extract and extracts that are not diluted are over powering, pungent causing the flavours to be muddled.

Complexity, nuance and definition or separation of flavours is optimised by diluting the extract to a certain degree, usually between 15-25%.

The reason I use PG to dilute WT juices is because I am a proponent that PG carries flavour better but I would suggest that diluting WT in PG or VG would be beneficial to the flavor profile in the juice but I prefer PG to create a mix of PG and VG, given the VG is 100% in the cigar extracts. If nothing else, it will reduce gunking to more acceptable levels in line with other marketable NETs.




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Thanks Anthony, good to hear your thoughts. Maybe I will try a comparison test myself if and when Ken gets back in the game.

 

[MikeNice81]

I aged the MVJ Perdomo Lot 23 a little longer. All of the green and immature flavors are gone. It is now rolling along with flavors of coffee, leather, cedar (occasionally), nuts, and something sweet. I think the sweetness may be a part of the nutty taste. It isn't cashews or peanuts though. So, I'm not one hundred percent sure.

 

[AnthonyB]

100% VG just doesn't work for me. I get this weird burnt sugar taste no matter which juice delivery system I choose. The VG also seems to mute the brightest and darkest flavors. It is kind of like listening to a 96kbs MP3 in my opinion. Yeah, you get enough to recognize it but it ain't nearly as full of vibrancy. For me 60pg-40vg or 70pg-30vg is the sweet spot.

100% pg has no body and feels very flat. It might have more flavor, but it isn't really any better than 100% vg just really different.

I tend to go 70/30 or 60/40 as well but if I am feeling insanely zany or enter some kind of reality schism, I might venture into 50/50 territory in a moment of sheer bravado.

It's how I compensate for not having the courage to go sky diving.

Tapa has no emoticons! Hope that came across with all due sarcasm.


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