Natural Tobaccos - Part Deux

[AnthonyB]

I am referring to the National Socialism miracle economy which is well known to most historians which commenced in approximately 1933 and continued until the demise of the Third Reich. Like them or loathe them, their economy was turned around in a way that was entirely unprecedented in modern day history.

The Germans had their problems with the Jews no doubt which led to heavy handed ness such as ostracism, incarceration and persecution, but the actual economic model they used turned their economy around in a way which was nothing short of miraculous. 6 million people were put back into work during the late 30s and the economy boomed despite the rest of the modern world languishing in the depths of the depression.

Things got ugly in Germany but the social issues should not be confused with the ideological model of socialism as it was used in Germany. Many people confuse it with Russian communism and collectivism.

There is propaganda that the German miracle economy was due to the rearmament of Germany but this is propaganda which fits neatly into the black and white perspective and propaganda of the Third Reich.

I have studied the historic period between WW1 and WW2 extensively over the last few years, both from the classic perspective and the revisionist perspective but what I have learnt is entirely outside the scope of this forum.

One thing I've noticed is that Europeans have been receptive to the revisionist perspective of WW1 and WW2 history but Americans are highly resistant to the revisionist perspective which is understandable. There is a lot of high emotion and sentiment in connection with what happened in Europe during WW2.

I have spent 100s of hours of my time on this subject and the one thing I've learnt is that not all is what we think it is in regards to history.

Wait, are you mistaking the German economic miracle post war ( Marshall Plan etc ... ) with National Socialism ( Nazism ) or are you being sarcastic in some profound way ? confused !

 

[MFToms59]

I am referring to the National Socialism miracle economy which is well known to most historians which commenced in approximately 1933 and continued until the demise of the Third Reich...



The Germans had their problems with the Jews no doubt which led to heavy handed ness such as ostracism, incarceration and persecution, but the actual economic model they used turned their economy around in a way which was nothing short of miraculous. 6 million people were put back into work during the late 30s and the economy boomed despite the rest of the modern world languishing in the depths of the depression.

Things got ugly in Germany but the social issues should not be confused with the ideological model of socialism as it was used in Germany. Many people confuse it with Russian communism and collectivism.

There is propaganda that the German miracle economy was due to the rearmament of Germany but this is propaganda which fits neatly into the black and white perspective and propaganda of the Third Reich.

I have studied the historic period between WW1 and WW2 extensively over the last few years, both from the classic perspective and the revisionist perspective but what I have learnt is entirely outside the scope of this forum.

One thing I've noticed is that Europeans have been receptive to the revisionist perspective of WW1 and WW2 history but Americans are highly resistant to the revisionist perspective which is understandable. There is a lot of high emotion and sentiment in connection with what happened in Europe during WW2.

I have spent 100s of hours of my time on this subject and the one thing I've learnt is that not all is what we think it is in regards to history.

I've tried to stay out of this but... any form of Socialism, puts the State's needs ahead of the individual, and is unsustainable. Our right to protest or boycott is the right of Free Men, and not granted by any worldly power.

That being said, the rise of Germany after WWI was due to the National Socialism/ Naziism, promoted by Hitler and his associates. They excelled at Industry, Art, Science and Music, and became prosperous... many reasons why Hitler was on the cover of Time as Man of the Year January 1939.

Two core beliefs in National Socialism practiced by the Germans were; Scientific Racism- a belief in racial superiority and Anti-Semitisim- self-explanatory, and these beliefs are being revived in Europe right now.

This was a secondary reason The British & French needed to go to war, the real reasons were due to the superior performance and importance of Germany in the previously mentioned Industry, Art & Science.

This is a complex issue, too deep for discussion on a Natural tobacco Thread, just don't assume the participants here have little or no knowledge of Historical World Events... History Does repeat itself because we are too blind or afraid to speak up and be labeled.

 

[Mazinny]

I am referring to the National Socialism miracle economy which is well known to most historians which commenced in approximately 1933 and continued until the demise of the Third Reich. Like them or loathe them, their economy was turned around in a way that was entirely unprecedented in modern day history.

The Germans had their problems with the Jews no doubt which led to heavy handed ness such as ostracism, incarceration and persecution, but the actual economic model they used turned their economy around in a way which was nothing short of miraculous. 6 million people were put back into work during the late 30s and the economy boomed despite the rest of the modern world languishing in the depths of the depression.

Things got ugly in Germany but the social issues should not be confused with the ideological model of socialism as it was used in Germany. Many people confuse it with Russian communism and collectivism.

There is propaganda that the German miracle economy was due to the rearmament of Germany but this is propaganda which fits neatly into the black and white perspective and propaganda of the Third Reich.

I have studied the historic period between WW1 and WW2 extensively over the last few years, both from the classic perspective and the revisionist perspective but what I have learnt is entirely outside the scope of this forum.

One thing I've noticed is that Europeans have been receptive to the revisionist perspective of WW1 and WW2 history but Americans are highly resistant to the revisionist perspective which is understandable. There is a lot of high emotion and sentiment in connection with what happened in Europe during WW2.

I have spent 100s of hours of my time on this subject and the one thing I've learnt is that not all is what we think it is in regards to history.

Admittedly, i am not familiar with the economic situation in Germany in the late thirties, but the " loved it's own people " part i can take exception to. Jews were also German citizens so they were part of " it's own people " and sending millions of young Germans to die for an ideological and expansionist cause also doesn't mesh with the idea of " loving it's own people " either, to me, and i'm not sure if we can separate " the social issues " with the " ideological model ", but that's beyond the scope of my expertise and as you stated beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[CanOfBeans]

Man, I haven't posted here in a year (I've read it all of course, and to keep it on topic, uh, EV is pretty good and I'm looking forward to the new Ahl stuff).

I think our esteemed AnthonyB (I say that with the highest regard, sir, and not just for your taste in juice) was referring to economic theory, and nothing else. And Socialism is economic theory, whereas, e.g. Communism is political theory. And Nazism was an entirely different and unique machine. No? Some are attacking Mr. B on points outside the scope of his argument.

Europe today is generally Socialistic, and a solid model, and they're doing pretty well. At first I thought Tony (do you mind?) was referring to modern Germany... which is doing pretty well. The farther north one travels, the more "Socialistic." The funny thing is, and this is an aside, I suppose, but by any barometer (or poll, or study) the citizens of those countries are rated the happiest, wealthiest, and most healthy (also the least religious, just sayin'). So many people were racing to Norway (where they'd pay most of their income to the gov't) that Norway finally had to limit immigration.

And MFToms, Socialism is demonstrably sustainable, and no one throws a riot (or protest or boycott) like citizens of a Socialist country.

Jeez, how did I arrive at a defense of Socialism? I just wanted to buttress and direct focus to AnthonyB's original point.

Ether Vapes, folks. Good lovin'.

 

[Jerms]

just don't assume the participants here have little or no knowledge of Historical World Events

Speak for yourself [emoji23]

I have little to no knowledge on an impressive amount of things. If you knew half the things I don't know, you'd be a genius.

 

[Jerms]

I try to practice socialism. The thing is, I'm intovertionist by nature, so introversionism holds me back. I find it good to fight that though, and practice being a socialist as I really do enjoy being social with people. Socialism is good for me, but it does drain my energy, so I'll never be a true socialist. I have to balance being a socialist and an introversionist to be content. I do love my alone time.

 

[AnthonyB]

Toms, I don't necessarily disagree with you. In fact, I agree with much of what you said. I am actually really impressed by your understanding of the dynamics which served to destroy Germany during the first half of the last century.

It's great to see that vaping is not the only thing we know!

Few people would agree or have an understanding with this following statement I have quoted from you, but I agree wholeheartedly.

"This was a secondary reason The British & French needed to go to war, the real reasons were due to the superior performance and importance of Germany in the previously mentioned Industry, Art & Science."

No one arrives to that conclusion overnight. It takes a great deal of study and review to come to this understanding. For years I bought into the standard 'victors' propaganda but the truth is a lot more complex and sobering. The idea that the allies fought the good war and destroyed those all evil Germans is a fairy tale that has been sold to generations through the controlled media.

I think most people take an either/or paradigm with political ideology. Either democracy/capitalism or socialism, but don't consider the merits of both within certain economic climates and unique combination of environmental factors.

Both capitalism and socialism, and various permutations of both, have an infinite amount of possible variations within each broader framework that could work for a nation.

I think political systems serve to meet the needs of a populace within their environment and the unique circumstances which shape the geopolitical climate at a given period of time. The mindset and the various needs of the people at a given point in time will often sculpture the kind of political system which will prevail. Socialism is a viable political regime, say, during periods of depression or poverty, or when a nation is down on its knees or facing turmoil within the international community. Socialism served to ignite the hearts and souls of the people in Germany at a time when the threat of communism was on its doorstep from the east, and the treaty of Versailles was milking the Weimar republic and squeezing it dry from the west. The only way to reverse a nations fortunes rapidly is through revolution and revolution doesn't take place in a voting booth.

Socialism might not be the appropriate political system in say, a typical modern western world country during the last 30 or 40 years where economic growth has taken place and the Middle class is thriving. When the middle class is thriving people don't want to rock the boat and the middle class usually is the pivot by which votes flow. Socialism prospers in conditions where people's needs are not met, their tables are bare and their spirits are low. It serves as a tonic to bond and unite people, which is probably why socialism and nationalism tend to go hand in hand.

Capitalism, may function as an effective political ideology during times of prosperity and in peace time and particularly when the economic wealth of a nation is divided in a way that is acceptable to the majority. When the wealth of a nation starts to cluster at the top of the wealth pyramid and the Middle class begins to slip below the poverty line, revolt and revolution can ignite.

Both capitalism and socialism have life cycles and within that life cycle of each political ideology is a 'honeymoon' period but neither can be sustain forever in the same way that no civilisation can be sustained as an empire or a superpower forever. Nations fall, empires fall, political systems fall in all their permutations.

You are quite right, Toms. This entire discussion is very complex and the debate between capitalism and socialism will probably endure for all of time. It certainly doesn't belong in this forum. It's a heavy, complex and topical discussion that belongs elsewhere, however stimulating it is.

I've tried to stay out of this but... any form of Socialism, puts the State's needs ahead of the individual, and is unsustainable. Our right to protest or boycott is the right of Free Men, and not granted by any worldly power.

That being said, the rise of Germany after WWI was due to the National Socialism/ Naziism, promoted by Hitler and his associates. They excelled at Industry, Art, Science and Music, and became prosperous... many reasons why Hitler was on the cover of Time as Man of the Year January 1939.

Two core beliefs in National Socialism practiced by the Germans were; Scientific Racism- a belief in racial superiority and Anti-Semitisim- self-explanatory, and these beliefs are being revived in Europe right now.

This was a secondary reason The British & French needed to go to war, the real reasons were due to the superior performance and importance of Germany in the previously mentioned Industry, Art & Science.

This is a complex issue, too deep for discussion on a Natural Tobacco Thread, just don't assume the participants here have little or no knowledge of Historical World Events... History Does repeat itself because we are too blind or afraid to speak up and be labeled.

 

[CanOfBeans]

Speak for yourself [emoji23]

I have little to no knowledge on an impressive amount of things. If you knew half the things I don't know, you'd be a genius.

"What you don't know could fill a warehouse." -- Bart Simpson to Helen Lovejoy.

 

[SharonMM]

I try to practice socialism. The thing is, I'm intovertionist by nature, so introversionism holds me back. I find it good to fight that though, and practice being a socialist as I really do enjoy being social with people. Socialism is good for me, but it does drain my energy, so I'll never be a true socialist. I have to balance being a socialist and an introversionist to be content. I do love my alone time.

um, nevermind. Lmao.

 

[Jerms]

You got that from Vickers. Yeah I read that too. Next thing you know you'll be in here regurgitating Gordon Wood.

Who, me? I have no idea who Vickers is. Nor Gordon Wood.

 

[SharonMM]

Who, me? I have no idea who Vickers is. Nor Gordon Wood.

Yeah sorry about that. Just a crazy half baked reference to Good Will Hunting due to the pissing contest in here tonight. I literally lol'd at your take on socialism tho.

Sorry for the interruption. I will let the adults talk now.

 

[Jerms]

Yeah sorry about that. Just a crazy half baked reference to Good Will Hunting due to the pissing contest in here tonight. I literally lol'd at your take on socialism tho.

Sorry for the interruption. I will let the adults talk now.

Ha! Yeah I totally missed that reference. That line did seem oddly familiar though. Been quite a while since I'd seen that movie.

 

[AnthonyB]

Admittedly, i am not familiar with the economic situation in Germany in the late thirties, but the " loved it's own people " part i can take exception to. Jews were also German citizens so they were part of " it's own people " and sending millions of young Germans to die for an ideological and expansionist cause also doesn't mesh with the idea of " loving it's own people " either, to me, and i'm not sure if we can separate " the social issues " with the " ideological model ", but that's beyond the scope of my expertise and as you stated beyond the scope of this thread.

I am going to respectfully disagree with this post, Mazinny, and it's nothing personal.

Germany's vision was not an expansionist one, except to reclaim it's lost territories resulting from the treaty of Versailles. Nationalism is not an ideology of expansionism, it is one of containment and self protection.

Communism on the other hand is an expansionist regime. Communism is inherently an expansionist ideology because it is a class revolution. Lenin and Stalins many conquests of surrounding nations is testimony to this.

Britain also operated under an expansionist ideology as can be witnessed by its many colonial conquests during the last 500 years. These conquests did not end in the last century. The US also operates under an expansionist mode but rather than invade nations, which is impossible in a shrinking globe filled with nuclear weapons, it does so through political coup and imposed hegemony.

To discuss why Germany attacked Poland would require a lengthy discussion but if you google the Danzig Territories you might get an inkling of what really triggered WW2.

Germany's reunification with the Sudetanland and Austria was the desire of the people as they were inherently German and belonged to Germany prior to the Treaty of Versailles.

Prior to Germany attacking France, which had already declared war on Germany along with Britain, Hitler attempted peace negotiations on numerous occasions with England to avoid war with her. This is why Hitler waited over 10 months to attack France and the neighbouring neutral countries who despite their neutrality had offensive positions facing the German direction. This dormant period was known as the phony war.

The fact is, Hitler never wanted war with England. He admired the English way of life, civilised nature and inner strength. This is well documented. In his negotiations for peace Hitler even offered the Wermacht to England to assist in her campaigns of war and defence.

Germany's enemy and threat was communist Bolshevik Russia which by 1939 had already killed over 50 million of its own people and of the people of nations it invaded and brought into the Soviet Union fold. Communism and the mass murders and genocides that took place threatened to encapsulate all of Europe. Evidence has now come to light following the collapse of communist USSR that Russia was planning to sweep all of Western Europe. Hitler knew this and arranged the massive operation Barbarossa campaign.

So why is this particular aspect of history not covered liberally in movies, documentaries and books?

My best guess is that it doesn't fit into the 'victors' narrative and brings to light the fact that Britain and The US supported and funded the most murderous regime in a thousand of years while claiming they 'liberated' the Germans.

It was actually the British and US who sent millions of their young men to death and then had to justify it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dusty_D]

Folks, leave the politics past and present for the OUTSIDE, please.

Anthony, I know you're very passionate about that timeline based on your FB posts. May I recommend a thread in the OUTSIDE section to further discuss this topic?

 

[AnthonyB]

No problems Dusty. I didn't plan on continuing with this line of discussion as I know it is disruptive to the theme of the thread.

It's been a while since there has been any off-topic banter and things have been just a touch quiet lately so I figured a 'fling' with an off topic discussion might keep things humming a long a bit

If people do wish to discuss this further perhaps I can create a thread in a miscellaneous section somewhere on ECF.

Post Script.

Actually, I have set up a thread for this discussion as I know some people may have some views they may want to vent or discuss or perhaps have questions or points of contentions. So guys and gals, if you are interested in furthering this discussion please go to the following thread I've created and lets leave Natural Tobacco for its intended purpose

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...scussion-debate-revisionism.html#post15387360

Folks, leave the politics past and present for the OUTSIDE, please.

Anthony, I know you're very passionate about that timeline based on your FB posts. May I recommend a thread in the OUTSIDE section to further discuss this topic?

 

[Dusty_D]

Thanks Anthony!

 

[Avi8tor]

I've had an opportunity to try a few of the Mountain Oak Vapor.

The first is Southern Gentleman. I like this. I like it a lot. Rich tobacco flavor that has a little bite to it. Smokiness on the exhale. I'm hoping this mellows out a little but definitely vapeable out of the mailbox. I do detect a slight sweetness in the end as well.

Sunday Morning is another that is vapeable out of the mailbox. Not as heavy as Southern Gentleman if that makes any sense and yes I get some smokiness out of this as well. I cannot detect any coffee but sweetness is there. I suspect time will bring out the coffee more.

Very impressed with MOV.

I'll try to get some Apache and Sweet RY4 in this weekend.

On another positive note, the perfumeness has left my HHV flavors. Going to give it another week before I try these again.

Worrisome: Still no flavor out of the N.E.T. flavors. Assuming time time and more time for these.

R/Avi

 

[Mazinny]

I've had an opportunity to try a few of the Mountain Oak Vapor.

The first is Southern Gentleman. I like this. I like it a lot. Rich tobacco flavor that has a little bite to it. Smokiness on the exhale. I'm hoping this mellows out a little but definitely vapeable out of the mailbox. I do detect a slight sweetness in the end as well.

Sunday Morning is another that is vapeable out of the mailbox. Not as heavy as Southern Gentleman if that makes any sense and yes I get some smokiness out of this as well. I cannot detect any coffee but sweetness is there. I suspect time will bring out the coffee more.

Very impressed with MOV.

I'll try to get some Apache and Sweet RY4 in this weekend.

On another positive note, the perfumeness has left my HHV flavors. Going to give it another week before I try these again.

Worrisome: Still no flavor out of the N.E.T. flavors. Assuming time time and more time for these.

R/Avi

Southern Gentleman was probably the first NET i tried and after trying possibly 100 other NETs since, still in my top five.

I am perplexed by the lack of flavor on your N.E.T. juices. I rarely try any juice before a month or two but still, no flavor !? Which ones did you order ?

 

[67Tele]

(snip)
Sunday Morning is another that is vapeable out of the mailbox. Not as heavy as Southern Gentleman if that makes any sense and yes I get some smokiness out of this as well. I cannot detect any coffee but sweetness is there. I suspect time will bring out the coffee more.
(snip)

I have yet to try Southern Gentleman but, Sunday Morning got my vote in the recent poll. The coffee is there. Let it get a little older.

 

[Dusty_D]

I have yet to try Southern Gentleman but, Sunday Morning got my vote in the recent poll. The coffee is there. Let it get a little older.

Haven't tried Southern Gentleman but have tried Sunday Morning...?? Does not compute!

Well, get on it man!!