Natural Tobaccos - Part Deux

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boomerdude

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BJ,

Your take on 5 Vegas Cask reflects my experience with most of the MVJ cigar NETs. They all strike me as very fine extractions, squeaky clean (relatively speaking), with a lovely clear "cigar-ness," but somehow slightly hollow, as if the flavor were "cigar-lite.". I base that mainly on comparisons to Want2Vape cigar NETs and my own home-brewed cigar extracts. W2V's are all bold and amazingly flavorful, but they achieve that by also being extreme gunkers. My homemade cigar extracts and the NET juices made from them fall somewhere between MVJ and W2V cigars---more flavorful than MVJ's, but cleaner performing than W2V's. That's an opinion, of course, but I'm pretty sure it's a well-informed opinion that reflects reality rather than merely a subjective belief.

Having tried several of your cigar extracts and two or three of W2V's and NET.com's cigar extracts I have to agree with you Bill. I decided to wait on Diane's new extracts until some reviews rolled in. Considering my previous experience of Country Squire, Wicked Wench and Rogue I figured the new ones might be a little light in the taste category. Now, having read a lot of comments from you guys I laid off of trying any and since then quit buying NET juices and extracts in favor of my own, and the many trades I've made. Sales like GeJ's 50% off will get my money because nothing compares to Patriot and VB.

I find doing cigar extracts a little disappointing. Out of about ten I've done only the Ramon Bueso and Tatiana were satisfying. On the other hand your AB Tempus, Brick House Robusto and Nat Sherman MCD are excellent and not as coil gunking as my own attempts.

I would be perfectly happy with just the liquids we home DIY extractors produce if that's all there was available. I would miss a few retail juices but all in all some of our extracts come close enough. Well, maybe not Patriot and VB.
 

Brobdingnagian

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I am puffing on some Groovy Blue from MFT. I will leave any sweeping reviews out for know. I am vaping on a Kanger factory head. I had no idea how much I was missing when I used these. I will definitely say that the silica wicks are definitely muting flavor tremendously. Cotton and hemp make for more lively flavors.

The Groovy Blue is definitely that, groovy.

I like it better than the Nub Cameroon.

Still waiting on some more things. The German Silica isn't half-bad, but I'm using the MvJ ultra-amplified-flavor Captain Black Royal in this KFL and it is gunking reeeeeallly fast.

Trying to clear out the last of the tank at 14.5w to get it open so I can chuck the coil/wick into my "non-trash/toxic waste" container and perform a do-over of the setup. Somehow, I hit 1.8 when I was trying to hit 2.0-2.2Ω.

Fresh Sony VTC5's to be loaded shortly. Charge completed.

No mo' demonfire for me. :2cool:
 

MikeNice81

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I stand by my claim...of all the retail NET I have tried, and I have sampled most of the top tier vendors...for my money W2V Louisville is the best retail nET on the market, period. A MUST TRY for anyone looking to make their bones and get "made" by La Cosa NETstra.

I coincidentally just polished off the last few drops of my stash this morning. It NEVER disappoints.

Straight burley?
1320397225_no_thanks_gag.jpg
 

MikeNice81

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3 Crowns is probably my #2 favorite retail cigar vape that I have tried. That stuff is excellent and I vaped a bunch more of it on a road trip this weekend.

I also gave an extended trial to MVJ 5 Cask. My first impressions were I really appreciated it. I do not love the alcohol cigars...for instance, NETCOM Bourbon and Cognac infused are REALLY great, but they wear on me as just not my thing. This was similar for me...VERY vapeable, I took down an entire tank happily, but in the end not my flavor profile. Also, despite ordering with extra extract, the flavor is a bit hollow to me....extremely well balanced with clear notes all the way across, but a bit too weak in flavor for what I want from a cigar. If I wanted an alcohol infused cigar I would rate this slightly below NETCOM - Cognac Infused which had a more pronounced sweetness from the cognac and more depth to the tobacco IMHO. I prefer the "authentic smoking experience" to the "true essence/representation" type of juice and this is the latter. A damn fine extraction, squeaky clean for an NET, and a juice I will recommend to others even...but not to my taste and still not robust enough for me.

It isn't alcohol infused.
The term ’cask strength’ is a term single-malt scotch and malt whisky enthusiasts are familiar with. Cask strength refers to whiskies that are undiluted, usually creating a powerful bottling strength, high alcohol content, and ample character. That was the inspiration for 5 Vegas Cask-Strength and the blend lives up to the name....and then some.

Hailing from Esteli, the cigar-making capital of Nicaragua, 5 Vegas Cask-Strength will captivate you from the get-go. Dressed in a stunning, reddish-hued Corojo wrapper from Nicaragua - one that’s dark and oozing with oils - this 6"x52 Toro is lovingly box-pressed for maximum flavor. Beneath this exquisite wrapper, a bold combination of aged ligeros from Nicaragua, Honduras, and beyond has been expertly blended. Cask-Strength opens with a feisty bouquet loaded with hearty spices. An eventful opening indeed - which prepares the palate for a deep series of oak, cedar, earth, and toast. Spicy throughout with a warm, toasty aroma, expect a full-bodied and full-flavored crescendo as you gradually approach the nub. Marvelous!

There is no alcohol. It is inspired by the term cask strength. It is meant to denote a stronger strength and extra aging.
 

Jerms

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Straight burley?
1320397225_no_thanks_gag.jpg

I'd forgotten that Loisville Blend was straight burley. I've mentioned that BGB is the only single varietal burley that I really liked, but that's not true, LB is another. LB was more grassy than nutty when I tried it. I actually don't remember it being nutty at all like most straight burley NETs.
 

johni

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Juicy, I agree Louisville is an awesome juice! I've done several Burley blend extractions in an effort to make something like Louisville with the closest being Sutliff Burley Delight 212. That blend actually has some Virginia in it. If you know of any tobacco blends that smoke like Louisville vapes, I'll extract them right away!
 
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Jerms

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It's only taken a few days for GJ4 to become more like I remember it. The caramel seems a little less intense, though it's still caramel heavy. The burley tobacco is more noticable too, and I'm perceiving a subtly nutty taste from the tobacco.

With GJ4 in one dripper and Bill's Lousiana Red pipe in another, I'm in NET heaven! I bet I could stick with just these two for days and be happy.
 

Mazinny

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They are very similar as a whole as they are made from similar leaves, the differences are more subtle. The differences become bigger and more noticable to those who have more experience with different English style blends. Being Latakia heavy English blends, Apache and DD are SMOKY. Latakia is an Oriental tobacco that is sun-dried and smoked over a smoldering fires of various woods and herbs, and the smokiness and spiciness is very distinctive and easy to pick out.

Basically, I think those two are more similar than different, but the differences make them quite distinct for seasoned English blend NET vapers.
So Latakia is not as much a type of tobacco but a method of processing ? Same tobacco as Turkish, but processed differently ?
 

Jerms

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So Latakia is not as much a type of tobacco but a method of processing ? Same tobacco as Turkish, but processed differently ?

Yeah, Latakia isn't a variety of tobacco leaf, it's a name for tobacco processed a certain way which is also true of Cavendish and Perique. Latakia is made in Syria and Cyrus. I think the difference between the two is the exact type of Oriental tobacco used, but they may be processed a little differently too. Latakia isn't meant to be smoked by itself, instead it's used as a condiment tobacco in blends because of how potent it is. English blends often contain Latakia, but they don't all do.
 

Big Juicy

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Juicy, I agree Louisville is an awesome juice! I've done several Burley blend extractions in an effort to make something like Louisville with the closest being Sutliff Burley Delight 212. That blend actually has some Virginia in it. If you know of any tobacco blends that smoke like Louisville vapes, I'll extract them right away!

Well, your Burley Delight is currently in my top 10 favorite juices. I REALLY like that stuff!
 

Brobdingnagian

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It isn't alcohol infused.


There is no alcohol. It is inspired by the term cask strength. It is meant to denote a stronger strength and extra aging.

Juicy just needs to get the Extra-extra extract version :D

There is definitely some 'oomph' to MvJ extracts. You just gotta ramp up the extract percentage, and you'll find that they gunk a lot quicker and produce definitively more flavor than their base counterparts.

Any cigar (or NET) vape will do this; anyone who's vaped W2V ACID Blondie or Cold Infusion knows exactly how gentle these are to coils- they are merciless, fast-gunking flavor cannons. W2V's Campfire coffee, while not a NET, tastes like it's namesake percolated coffee- however, it gunks at about the same rate as a NET.

Regarding Louisville- I have a very well aged bottle of it. I think I took more to the London route and enjoyed Latakia more, but that doesn't mean I like straight latakia 100% of the time.

If there's just a bit of something else in there to "round it out", so to speak, I can vape it all day (I run one tank, one flavor, all day long most of the time. There are, however, exceptions) and the closest I can think of is Balkan- has that same London Latakia punch, doesn't gunk as quickly (though this will obviously vary based on how the extract is filtered and the %), and is rounded out with the Macedonian tobacco. I forget what else is in it, but it was mysteriously alluring every time I loaded it up on a fresh coil/wick or after a good dry-burn on the ReadyXwick.

When I vape my Cavs (that made me lol, because I think of the Cleveland Cavaliers [the Cleveland 'Cavs'] every time someone says "Cavs" in reference to a Cavendish) people often don't even notice a hint of tobacco smell. Dry burning them, however, produces an odor much closer to burnt hair than fine tobacco.

I often wonder, though, if we can find a simpler way to pull the essence of flavor from a tobacco, without the gunk. Sure, there's all this talk of supercritical C02 extraction and all, and there has to be a reason HHV's tobaccos aren't anywhere near as gunky as other vendors'- even if some of the blends are hybrids, the gunk factor should be more present than it is; as it stands, I can run HHV juices for days compared to most NETs before needing a dry-burn.

I guess you could say that's one of the reasons I enjoy HHV juices; Fiddling with things has a tendency to bother me, and the less fiddle-factor with my devices, the better.

In fact, I just twisted a 2.3Ω coil on some readyXwick pared down shorter on the KFL- just to the top of the wick channels intentionally to see if it would draw liquid effectively after a deliberate juice flood- it did, and the liquid level is dropping.
Flavor is coming through pretty well now on the Sony batteries, compared to the demonfires.

All in all, I guess you could say that I'm focused on less equipment maintenance and maximum flavor output.

As I made mention of HHV, they fit the bill in this regard. However, you're not going to find a GJ4, Acadian Gold, or Latakia-based blend that will vape as clean as an HHV juice. MvJ's standard blends reflect this performance to an extent, however you're definitely getting the different tobaccos dancing around visibly, and not simply working backstage to improve the performance.

Absolutely no offense to HHV or MvJ implied in any way whatsoever; but I wish all NETs vaped as cleanly as HHV (even with extra extract) and MvJ (with extra extract, not doubled).

Those of you who recall the posts regarding the differences in color hues/flavor between the current HHV blends and how they were in the past, will also note that a steeping will shift these liquids to the same hue they previously arrived at the doorstep in.

Remember, when we first started ordering from HHV, they were a small business- from what I understand, now they have a B&M and a new location, which implies new mixologists. We're all human, and sometimes....well.... juices just require steeping.

From here on in, let us let the vendors know if something isn't the same as a previous order with their juice. It's easy to try and "steep it away" and try to change the flavor- but if there's a mix-up in the mixing, the owner ought to know what's up, amirite?

For example, when I first vaped MvJ's FVCS, I got it with regular extract, STP.

I found it smooth, but I literally could not taste it. There was a tobacco presence, but I was wondering where the flavor was, so I emailed Diane. She was as clueless as I was. Then, a week and a half later, the flavor started to come through. Had I ordered a bottle of extract and just threw a bunch in some premixed base, I might have been freaking out at the flavor being too strong.

FWIW, MvJ has helped me step down my nicotine levels. It's just hard to mix to everybody's taste, and even harder to get an exact extract % that will work on all hardware. If a liquid destroys a factory-built coil after the first tank, a new vaper might have no clue as to what's going on and might simply go shop elsewhere; or they'll wonder what's wrong with their equipment, ect.

While it's good to be inquisitive on such a level, it's better to venture into potent NETs with advance knowledge of the gain and drawbacks in regards to hardware/wicks and other such tradeoffs.

MvJ is, as I see it, NETs that everyone can enjoy- even those who are running factory standard coil heads or rewicking with FT silica prebuilt heads will be able to tell a difference. Those of us who are more "hardcore" can step it up even further by ordering extract & base and mixing their own, doing their own extractions,or branching out into the "heavy-hitters" (which happen to be, unfortunately, heavy gunkers most of the time).

When I was very first vaping a lot of GeJ, I was rinsing factory kanger heads and using paper towels to clean the "flavor wicks" (I no longer use "flavor wicks" of any sort as they seem to mute flavor) and a kitchen sprayer to blast the gunk out of the wick/coil after nearly every tank (of course, I'd let a whole pack pile up before doing this) to every two tanks, depending on the juice.

I couldn't even tell you how much money ReadyXwick has saved me since I stopped buying coil heads, but figuring a pack of coils per week or two, over a span of about 8-9 months.... yeah, probably quite a bit.

Sorry if I'm all over the place, but what I'm getting at;

We are all still testing out this technology. While there may be "cleaner" ways of delivering the "sensation" of analogs, the flavor is something that those methods cannot replicate. They may never. Until such time, we have plenty of countermeasures against the dreaded beast known as "Gunk"; but those unaware of its presence due to menthol or other such things....well, they may never know what keeps causing their equipment to go all wonky and stop producing vapor/cause congestion/flooding, ect.

Unfortunately, some of them give up vaping because of things like this. Others give up because they try "Cigalikes", and yet others are falling into the dread that the news media is spreading that, "they may be worse for you", which is a large crock of willy-nilly, because my chest x-rays (those of a former chronic bronchitis sufferer) say otherwise.

Saying PV's/E-cigs/NETs "may be worse for you" is like saying, "your mattress may randomly burst into flames" on the tag.

Any doctor that agrees with the logic that PVs "may" be worse for you....well, no comment.

Hospitals liberally use PG.

It may dehydrate you a little bit, but it certainly isn't going to kill you- unless you're allergic to it, obviously.

If studies that are actually peer-reviewed and accurate on "The dangers of PG" pop up, I may change my viewpoint.

Meanwhile, going to the hospital may possibly expose you to MRSA- which actually is proven to kill people.
 
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Jerms

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The extracts that HHV buys to make their NETs are steam distilled, which I think accounts for how clean they are. Ahl's non-aromatics line of tobaccos are also steam distilled, and are really clean on coils like HHV is. While both those lines make some pretty tasty juices, they don't replicate an authentic tobacco flavor in the same way as macerations and CO2 extractions.
 

MFToms59

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I stand by my claim...of all the retail NET I have tried, and I have sampled most of the top tier vendors...for my money W2V Louisville is the best retail nET on the market, period. A MUST TRY for anyone looking to make their bones and get "made" by La Cosa NETstra.

I coincidentally just polished off the last few drops of my stash this morning. It NEVER disappoints.

Louisville is their best flavored NET, and for me Stockholm was a close second, but I like Anise anyway.
 

MFToms59

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I'm still new to this game... I started with NETs about a year ago, with MOV and HHV... Still learning !

No worries, we're all learning together, and some have the unique ability to identify Tobacco's and flavors better than others. I don't even try, for me it's a matter of enjoying or not enjoying a particular NET.

... Enjoy the ride, because there's none other like it!

That's my approach, enjoy without analyzing, sooo relaxing that way.

... quit buying NET juices and extracts in favor of my own,... Sales like GeJ's 50% off will get my money because nothing compares to Patriot and VB...

I find doing cigar extracts a little disappointing. Out of about ten I've done only the Ramon Bueso and Tatiana were satisfying... I would miss a few retail juices but all in all some of our extracts come close enough. Well, maybe not Patriot and VB.

I agree with VB, and I'll add Acadian Gold as a needed fix. Some Cigar juices can totally change after steeping, my Partagas Black Label went from muddled, one-dimensional & nondescript, to a tasty Tobacco with hints of fruit... from Frog to Prince.
 

RPadTV

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W2V's Campfire coffee, while not a NET, tastes like it's namesake percolated coffee- however, it gunks at about the same rate as a NET.

Fantastic post! Btw, Campfire Coffee uses W2V NET and, as W2V fans would expect, it's one helluva gunker.
 

billherbst

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So, HHV buys steam-distilled tobacco extract to flavor its NETs, or at least some of them. This is not a recent revelation, since it's been stated on the thread often over a long period of time, but do we know anything about where HHV gets it? I mean, what source company or laboratory produces steam-distilled tobacco extract for the wholesale eliquid market (i.e., vendors)?

I've never heard of one and, as far as I know, the identity of such a source has never been mentioned on this thread. Who's doing it? Is this the private underbelly of the vaping marketplace, with some secret handshake that only vendors know? Is the extract a custom order produced specifically at the request of a certain vendor, or is it a more general product that is then marketed to or sought out by vendors? How does a lowly end consumer pierce the veil of secrecy about this?

When I google "steam distilled tobacco extract," all I come up with are a bunch of scientific abstracts, patent applications, and other weird stuff, all of which appears on the surface to be fairly far afield from flavorings for vaping. There's certainly no link to a company site that says, "Get your steam-distilled natural tobacco extract flavorings here!"

Mann, this seems like the kind of thing you might know. Any clues?
 

Dusty_D

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So, HHV buys steam-distilled tobacco extract to flavor its NETs, or at least some of them. This is not a recent revelation, since it's been stated on the thread often over a long period of time, but do we know anything about where HHV gets it? I mean, what source company or laboratory produces steam-distilled tobacco extract for the wholesale eliquid market (i.e., vendors)?

I've never heard of one and, as far as I know, the identity of such a source has never been mentioned on this thread. Who's doing it? Is this the private underbelly of the vaping marketplace, with some secret handshake that only vendors know? Is the extract a custom order produced specifically at the request of a certain vendor, or is it a more general product that is then marketed to or sought out by vendors? How does a lowly end consumer pierce the veil of secrecy about this?

When I google "steam distilled tobacco extract," all I come up with are a bunch of scientific abstracts, patent applications, and other weird stuff, all of which appears on the surface to be fairly far afield from flavorings for vaping. There's certainly no link to a company site that says, "Get your steam-distilled natural tobacco extract flavorings here!"

Mann, this seems like the kind of thing you might know. Any clues?



I'm pretty sure I read a post on here about a company that does it, and speculation that it could be HHV's source. It may very well have been MM that posted it.
 

boomerdude

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So, now ECF is stating that sub-ohm vaping is a danger to your health on the sub-ohm threads. .................. is calling it BS. I think ECF makes it's case, at least enough to take pause and do more reading. VU says ECF has no scientific proof to back up their statement. Well, VU hasn't got any proof it's not a danger to our health. I am becoming a bit leery of this Vapor Joe guy. I've listened to his show and I think he has some knee-jerk reactions to some issues. His Vaping Deals page is a decent source for sales and discounts but it's always been 50% Fastech. I think I'll stay at 1.3 ohms until I hear more.
 

PaulBHC

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When I google "steam distilled tobacco extract," all I come up with are a bunch of scientific abstracts, patent applications, and other weird stuff, all of which appears on the surface to be fairly far afield from flavorings for vaping. There's certainly no link to a company site that says, "Get your steam-distilled natural tobacco extract flavorings here!"

Mann, this seems like the kind of thing you might know. Any clues?

Once you google something, if there is a source selling it, you will be bombarded with ads for it at various websites.
 
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