Natural Tobaccos - Part Deux

[billherbst]

Bill, i don't think the companies you mentioned are major players in the flavoring industry as a whole. I have a friend who has been doing research on major companies in that industry as part of his job, and he hadn't even heard the name of most of the companies you have mentioned.

I did a quick search, and these were the biggest companies in this industry between the years 2009 and 2013 :

Flavor & Fragrance Industry - Top 10

Now i don't know if any of these companies would even sell at the quantities liquid vendors purchase, but just because we haven't heard of food flavoring and fragrance companies that don't cater to the diy community, doesn't necessarily mean they are arcane.

Point taken. Still, the companies on the list you linked are arcane to me, and I think they might be to most vapers who aren't personally involved in the industrial level of Agri-Business.

Heck, I couldn't tell you who the major auto parts producers are or drywall manufacturers, either, because I don't live in those worlds. Most of the commercial/industrial activity on this planet is invisible to me personally and quite mysterious from my standpoint as an individual. That's part of why I asked my question in the first place, so thanks for doing some research.

 

[Mazinny]

Point taken. Still, the companies on the list you linked are arcane to me, and I think they might be to most vapers who aren't personally involved in the industrial level of Agri-Business.

Heck, I couldn't tell you who the major auto parts producers are or drywall manufacturers, either, because I don't live in those worlds. Most of the commercial/industrial activity on this planet is invisible to me personally and quite mysterious from my standpoint as an individual. That's part of why I asked my question in the first place, so thanks for doing some research.

Agreed. The companies we have heard of, are companies that have made a deliberate attempt to market their product to the diy community. Given the size of the diy community, i doubt any flavoring company in the top 30, let alone top 10 would find it beneficial to do that. Depending on the minimum quantity required for purchase, the liquid vendors could be buying from any number of companies in that industry that are better known ( in that industry ), than the flavoring companies we are familiar with.

 

[Kataphraktos]

Some thoughts on some recent purchases.

Want2Vape: These for the most part seem very similar to the Mountain Oak juices I had tried. I did not care for those, either. There is a bite and harshness to them that I do not care for. The one exception is CI Cigar, which does not have this harshness, and is incredible and very complex. I will let the Paris, Managua, Louisville and London steep for a few weeks, see if they mellow out some.

Ethervapes: Wow. These seem to be a somewhat less earthy version of NET.com offerings. The notes and the mouth feel are very similar. Very smooth in contrast to the Want2Vape juices I mention above. Pure Burley, Nomad and especially Eclipse were knockouts from first vape. Confederate, while a bit harsher than the other juices, is definitely good - maybe not a re-order, though. I will certainly be trying more of their NET offerings in the future.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I get all that and you do too. I know you do a lot of research, but most people don't. It's just dangerous using ambiguous terms. I'm still scratching my head at the use of "regular vapor." As opposed to what?!? Even "sub-ohm" on its own is too broad. What's the difference in safety between 0.9 and 0.2? What about people that use something like 1.2-ohms and crank up the voltage/wattage on a regulated vaping device. When you're as influential as ECF is, you really have to be careful with official "advisories," and this one needs more thought.

Yeah, I agree on the way it is written, but also understand the impetus to try and make some type of warning -- but that doesn't excuse its faults. There should be a dialogue about it though.

 

[Mazinny]

XC-116 is good wick. I prefer the flavor provided by fiberous wicks like cotton and rayon for most juices, but still keep a dripper going with XC because for some juices it's better. The wick outlasts the coil too. Most NETs I prefer rayon/cotton, so I use that most, but the ceramic does a good job with fruits, desserts, and creams. I also prefered Tobacco Haze with the XC as I mentioned earlier.

If you haven't tried rayon yet Mann, it's wicking abilities really stand out.

Phil Busardo is running some experiments comparing organic cotton, cotton pads (KGD), hemp, and rayon. The results should be posted on his site soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcZjaG9RPZ4&feature=player_embedded

 

[AnthonyB]

I get it that you're joking, but even the prospect of extracting a 144-year-old $450 cigar fills me with dread. I like extracting because it allows the possibility of terrific results on the cheap where nothing important is riding on the outcome. if I blow an extraction or the resulting juice is not so great, that's no big woof. A rare heirloom cigar changes the game from light-hearted fun to serious responsibility. Not that anyone's likely to offer for real, but I'd have to pass on that one. Maybe another intrepid home-extractor on our growing list would be willing.

My biggest fear is that a 144-year-old cigar would probably make lousy vaping extract. I think it's a good bet that recently-cured, relatively fresh tobacco is the best source for our purposes.

Nice find and a good joke, though.

Bill,

In an indirect way, I think you've given me some important hints in cigar extractions.

I have extracted mostly one type of cigar being a cohiba siglio II. I had them already from a duty free purchase 6 months ago.

I am not sure my extractions turned out as good as I would have liked but maybe some steeping would help.

I think the age of the cigars may be the culprit and given that I picked them up at a duty free shop in South East Asia might indicate that they were not so fresh. One of the cigars in the pack of five had some small spots of mould as well.

I tried to avoid overthinking about this potential issue of age seeing as I don't know the dynamics of extracting tobacco enough to know how age may affect an extraction. For all I knew, older tobacco might lend to deeper bolder flavours. I had no idea so I used these cigars for macerations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AnthonyB]

Vaping NET.coms 3-Crown in a mini Protank 3 today. I purchased it last year.

This is really good stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jcmccord235]

Tobacco Absolute (TA) has its place on this thread and is discussed from time to time, but the consensus of opinion here is that we don't regard TA as a typical NET, since it's basically an ultra-super-concentrated essential oil. Beyond that, TA doesn't really taste like a macerated or steam-distilled natural tobacco extract. Yes, it is used in numerous retail tobacco eliquids, usually to add a smoky, ashy component to synthetic tobacco flavorings. Most NETs we deal with here on the thread are not combined with synthetic tobacco flavors. That's not to suggest that you shouldn't use Medicine Flower TA as you wish. There are no 'rules,' and if you like the results, that's great.

As I am not aware of any other source of CO2 extracted tobacco, I wonder if you may be mixing this up with TPA's tobacco absolute? This is definitely not an artificial flavor. It actually tastes mostly like American Spirit, which is to say that it doesn't taste like the pipe and cigar tobacco that tend to be popular with NET fans but it's not ashy or smoky, at least I don't find it to be.

 

[billherbst]

Some thoughts on some recent purchases.

Want2Vape: These for the most part seem very similar to the Mountain Oak juices I had tried. I did not care for those, either. There is a bite and harshness to them that I do not care for. The one exception is CI Cigar, which does not have this harshness, and is incredible and very complex. I will let the Paris, Managua, Louisville and London steep for a few weeks, see if they mellow out some.

Ethervapes: Wow. These seem to be a somewhat less earthy version of NET.com offerings. The notes and the mouth feel are very similar. Very smooth in contrast to the Want2Vape juices I mention above. Pure Burley, Nomad and especially Eclipse were knockouts from first vape. Confederate, while a bit harsher than the other juices, is definitely good - maybe not a re-order, though. I will certainly be trying more of their NET offerings in the future.

At one level, this entire thread is a beauty contest in which we are all judges. Kat's post is squarely in that longstanding tradition, where posters tell us which contestants (NETs) they like, and which they don't. Descriptions of the retail NETs are given as reasons why the judge has voted a certain way. Ironically, these descriptions sometimes tell us more about the judge and his/her vaping preferences than they do about the nature and quality of the NETs themselves.

In Kat's post, W2V NETs are criticized as being "harsh" and having a "bite," while Ethervapes NETs are praised for being "smooth." I haven't had any of either Ethervapes' or Net.com's NETs, so I can't comment on them from personal experience. I have, however, vaped most of the W2V and MOV NETs, and those descriptions (harshness and bite) don't resonate for me. I'm not challenging Kat's experience---I accept it as given. It's more that the scale of "harsh to smooth" is not generally how I experience the spectrum of NETs. I can't think of any retail NETs out of the 150+ I've had where my reaction was to think either "harsh" or "smooth," and my experience of "bite" in eliquids is associated almost entirely with nicotine, although some flavors are smoother than others. For me, that scale is intense to mild, rather than harsh to smooth.

Please understand, I'm not questioning Kat's preference for Ethervapes NETs over W2V's or MOV's. I'm just trying to translate the harsh vs. smooth description into terms I understand from my own experience, and I'm not at all sure that intense vs. mild is accurate.

 

[billherbst]

As I am not aware of any other source of CO2 extracted tobacco, I wonder if you may be mixing this up with TPA's tobacco absolute? This is definitely not an artificial flavor. It actually tastes mostly like American Spirit, which is to say that it doesn't taste like the pipe and cigar tobacco that tend to be popular with NET fans but it's not ashy or smoky, at least I don't find it to be.

jc,

I didn't say that TA is an artificial flavor. I wrote that TA---the commercial product from Bulgaria, which happens to be what TPA and most other ecig vendors sell as tobacco absolute---is used in retail juices primarily to augment synthetic tobacco flavorings.

Most of the TA used in retail eliquids over the past eight years has been sourced from the commercial product made by a single company in Bulgaria that uses a proprietary process to create the concentrate from Bulgarian tobacco. TA was developed for use in the perfume industry and was already available when vaping came along. Hangsen is reportedly making its own TA now, and Velvet Cloud Vapors in San Francisco has the necessary equipment and extracts its own TA in-house, but it tastes fairly similar to the Bulgarian commercial TA. Perhaps Medicine Flower's absolute/essential oil tobacco product has a fundamentally different flavor and impact.

I have to challenge your assumption that NET fans vape mostly pipe and cigar tobaccos. Many of the A-Tier NET vendors offer natural tobacco juices that are more akin to cigarettes. I think you're right that pipe blends are the most common, followed by cigars, but cigarette/RYO NETs are by no means rare. Any lightly-cased non-aromatic Virginia, Burley, or Virginia/Burley blend (with or without a bit of Oriental or Perique for spice) could qualify as a cigarette-type blend.

Personally, I've extracted five tobacco blends that are either outright cigarettes (American Spirit Organic, Nat Sherman MCD, and Skydancer Native American) or RYO blends (Peter Stokkebye Turkish and #80 Norwegian).

American Spirit's line (regular, U.S. grown, Organic, and Perique) is a popular choice for home-based extraction, as are the more common RYO blends, such as the American version of Drum. My own American Spirit Organic is my go-to extract for augmenting other juices where I want to add a flavorful tobacco element that is, well, not exactly "neutral," but doesn't lean too strongly in any specific direction. In the world of smoking, American Spirit has been the subject of considerable controversy for many reasons, but I consider it a terrific choice for making vaping extract flavorings.

 

[xtreme101]

This is posted when trying to access NET.COM site.

Thank you for visiting! We are closed temporarily in order to catch up on past due orders. We apologize for the ongoing delays and will be reopened around the 1st of August at which time we will be shipping orders within 24 to 48 hours of the time the order was placed. Thank you for your patience and support . All orders which haven't yet gone out will be filled in the coming days and it is our goal to be fully caught up and reopened by August 1st. I am also in the process of contacting every customer who has emailed or has been waiting for their order.

We will be back online to serve you as soon as possible.

Thank you for your patience! We apologize for the inconvenience.

 

[BaccyFiend]

This is posted when trying to access NET.COM site.

Thank you for visiting! We are closed temporarily in order to catch up on past due orders. We apologize for the ongoing delays and will be reopened around the 1st of August at which time we will be shipping orders within 24 to 48 hours of the time the order was placed. Thank you for your patience and support . All orders which haven't yet gone out will be filled in the coming days and it is our goal to be fully caught up and reopened by August 1st. I am also in the process of contacting every customer who has emailed or has been waiting for their order.

We will be back online to serve you as soon as possible.

Thank you for your patience! We apologize for the inconvenience.

Bravo, NETcom! Not to sound arrogant and tell someone how to run their business, but about freakin time. When you have orders backed up over three months, tons of ...... off customers and negative online comments, and threats to refer you to consumer affairs and/or criminal authorities (I've seen a few), I think it's about time to shut down the website to new orders and get caught up.

I wish them the best in getting caught up, earning back their customers' loyalty and respect, continuing to produce superior NETs, and the financial success that results from achieving that. I look forwarding to ordering from them again once their house is in order.

 

[Dusty_D]

*** ATTENTION RAYON FANATICS ***

Bump your wattage up by the equivalent of around 2W compared to what you were previously using with cotton or otherwise.

If your wick consistency is right, it down right wakes things up to an AMAZING level!

I had 3 KFL's ready for re-wicking because they were kinda BLAH! but all is well now that I've bumped power up from 10W to 12W.

GAIA at 12.5W.. MIND BLOWN!! again..

The other two KFL's were loaded up with Boomers Voodoo Queen and Tatiana Honey cigar. I thought they were gunked up and starting to lose flavour but they are singing again at 12W.

 

[boomerdude]

Yep. Japanese Cotton took first place at least in Phil's opinion. The CelluCotton won second place. Gotta hand it to Phil. His videos are enlightening, educational and funny.

Actually, now that I think of it. They were tied but Phil liked the idea of all natural cotton so he picked that as his preference. Test wise they were equal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcZjaG9RPZ4&feature=player_embedded

 

[Mazinny]

Yep. Japanese Cotton took first place at least in Phil's opinion. The CelluCotton won second place. Gotta hand it to Phil. His videos are enlightening, educational and funny.

i had only tried two of the four wicking media ( organic cotton and kgd ) and without running tests it was clear to me that kgd was head and shoulders above. The taste tests are obviously subjective to some extent, but the surprising bit was just how much more permeable kgd was compared to Rayon, organic and hemp.

Like PBusardo a lot as well. The length of his videos bother me a bit though, ad i find myself skipping a lot. I also wish he could learn to build a proper tensioned microcoil.

 

[Mr.Mann]

This is posted when trying to access NET.COM site.

Thank you for visiting! We are closed temporarily in order to catch up on past due orders. We apologize for the ongoing delays and will be reopened around the 1st of August at which time we will be shipping orders within 24 to 48 hours of the time the order was placed. Thank you for your patience and support . All orders which haven't yet gone out will be filled in the coming days and it is our goal to be fully caught up and reopened by August 1st. I am also in the process of contacting every customer who has emailed or has been waiting for their order.

We will be back online to serve you as soon as possible.

Thank you for your patience! We apologize for the inconvenience.

Good. . .

 

[Dusty_D]

i had only tried two of the four wicking media ( organic cotton and kgd ) and without running tests it was clear to me that kgd was head and shoulders above. The taste tests are obviously subjective to some extent, but the surprising bit was just how much more permeable kgd was compared to Rayon, organic and hemp.

Like PBusardo a lot as well. The length of his videos bother me a bit though, ad i find myself skipping a lot. I also wish he could learn to build a proper tensioned microcoil.

And, use less wicking medium. He practically stuffs everything he builds. Love him though..

 

[rdsok]

I just received an order from MyVapeJuice of several of their newer juices... I really haven't been in a hurry to pre-test them considering how many others have said they needed a good steep first to come about... So even though I got it on Monday, tonight was the first night I broke the seal on one.

I'm pretty surprised by the Sutliff Private Stock - Charlemagne already...

First I was expecting it too really need to steep a while in order for it to be bolder.... It's already starting off nicely in that area but I suspect the burley and black cav will assert themselves more as they usually do. Right now the overall tone is in the low midrange and mids with the Virginia's bright notes supporting nicely with a slight hay like flavor they are known for. Most tobacco's I've vaped have a natural sweetness to them... this does also, almost plum fruityness in nature. I've read others mentioning a rum like flavor... I'm not getting that right now.

This would be a good evening after dinner, while reading a book type of vape. Smooth with some deeper notes ( I'd like to taste a bit more here ), balanced by the brighter ones and the sweet fruity flavor really makes it nice and relaxing. I'm going to have to get a pipe mod someday... just to help set the mood.

Considering how soon after I received this... I'm really looking forward to what this one can steep into.

 

[jcmccord235]

jc,

I didn't say that TA is an artificial flavor. I wrote that TA---the commercial product from Bulgaria, which happens to be what TPA and most other ecig vendors sell as tobacco absolute---is used in retail juices primarily to augment synthetic tobacco flavorings.

Most of the TA used in retail eliquids over the past eight years has been sourced from the commercial product made by a single company in Bulgaria that uses a proprietary process to create the concentrate from Bulgarian tobacco. TA was developed for use in the perfume industry and was already available when vaping came along. Hangsen is reportedly making its own TA now, and Velvet Cloud Vapors in San Francisco has the necessary equipment and extracts its own TA in-house, but it tastes fairly similar to the Bulgarian commercial TA. Perhaps Medicine Flower's absolute/essential oil tobacco product has a fundamentally different flavor and impact.

I have to challenge your assumption that NET fans vape mostly pipe and cigar tobaccos. Many of the A-Tier NET vendors offer natural tobacco juices that are more akin to cigarettes. I think you're right that pipe blends are the most common, followed by cigars, but cigarette/RYO NETs are by no means rare. Any lightly-cased non-aromatic Virginia, Burley, or Virginia/Burley blend (with or without a bit of Oriental or Perique for spice) could qualify as a cigarette-type blend.

Personally, I've extracted five tobacco blends that are either outright cigarettes (American Spirit Organic, Nat Sherman MCD, and Skydancer Native American) or RYO blends (Peter Stokkebye Turkish and #80 Norwegian).

American Spirit's line (regular, U.S. grown, Organic, and Perique) is a popular choice for home-based extraction, as are the more common RYO blends, such as the American version of Drum. My own American Spirit Organic is my go-to extract for augmenting other juices where I want to add a flavorful tobacco element that is, well, not exactly "neutral," but doesn't lean too strongly in any specific direction. In the world of smoking, American Spirit has been the subject of considerable controversy for many reasons, but I consider it a terrific choice for making vaping extract flavorings.

I learned stuff today, thank you.

Gotta agree with you about American Spirit Organic, that and pure perique were my first two home extractions. NAS is a rather neutral flavor - while it has its own distinctness, it does not lean too far in any direction. I thought it worked well in a variety of mixes. I moved away from VG flavor extraction from tobacco because of what it did to the coil and thus the flavor. First few puffs were great then it went downhill. Probably that's somewhat normal. I triple filtered it, using filters finer than coffee filters, but still... I guess tobacco flavors may just require more frequent rewicking.

 

[BaccyFiend]

Kicking back and trying an after-dinner dessert vape of Smug Juice Smuggler's Blues that I received yesterday. It's pretty good. There's definitely a chocolatey or some other rich desserty flavor up front, but with decent tobacco presence close behind. It reminds me of something desserty that could be from HHV or Ahl, but I can't put my finger on exactly which ones. It's definitely crisper, cleaner, and more rounded than those though (better be for the significantly higher price). It will be interesting to see how this develops as it steeps. I have a feeling that the tobacco will become more pronounced.

Next up to try will be the RY4 Extra from the same order. It's Smug Juice's RY4 with extra tobacco extract. Smelling the bottle, there's definitely a strong caramel scent, but I'm not detecting much vanilla. I'm hoping this will be the caramel tobacco I've been searching for.