Natural Tobaccos

[gthompson]

They say using charcoal to grill gets you more carcinogens, but that's preferable to using gas to grill IMO.

 

[Bronze]

Bronze...

I'd add the following arguments against us being able to have an intelligent discussion on the subject of possible carcinogens... Who of us here could talk about it with any authority... I'd suspect none. That would mean we'd all certainly have our own opinions but those wouldn't be based on any scientifically validated information. If the info we'd be basing our statements on are not based on actual proofs, then they'd simply end up being a "witch hunt" of sorts based on unsubstantiated fears.

Another direction based on the cited info that was posted... What they'd suggested as a possible cause didn't ( and couldn't ) exclude other possible causes in the area they found the increase of stomach cancers... though they were able to show that the method of smoking used in that location did have a higher amount than the other methods that were commonly used to smoke meats. In otherwords, they know there is an increase in that one area and that their smoked meats do have higher carcinogen counts... but they can't exclude all other possible causes that could also attribute to the increase of cancer by other means that also may be unique to that area. I'm not debating their info, just that the info doesn't always account for every other possibility that would need to be taken into account.

Let's set aside that argument ( since it's a rather weak one IMO )... and look at another aspect of it. It seemed that what was in question was their method they were using to smoke the meats... the other methods which seem to be commonly used elsewhere commercially and otherwise didn't produce the higher amounts of carcinogens.. it was unique to the area. If that is the case and it's the method in question... why would we assume the methods used for smoking tobacco would be all that different than what is commonly used for meats.

I also think the subject is interesting, I just don't think that the people here are likely to have the education to back up any statements we may choose to make ( including the ones I made above for that matter ). We have been told that curing, cooking and smoking of various foods increase the carcinogen levels... we just can't say if that increase is one that is significant with any type of authority.

I do believe we can use, at best and at least anecdotally, the info on the testing done on e-liquids by vendors such as Ahlusion and other third parties that show their TNSA levels. Any statements beyond those would need additional info to back them up.

I think you sell this crowd short. We may not have the intelligence to come up with final conclusions, but we do have the ability to frame the issue. I've seen the fervor at which the NT crowd here gets after stuff. I know what we are capable of. When we get down to analyzing ingredient lists on our favorite juices, I know we can tackle just about anything.

 

[EleanorR]

I think you sell this crowd short. We may not have the intelligence to come up with final conclusions, but we do have the ability to frame the issue. I've seen the fervor at which the NT crowd here gets after stuff. I know what we are capable of. When we get down to analyzing ingredient lists on our favorite juices, I know we can tackle just about anything.

Bronze hon, I think Rdsok (and others) nailed it -- take yes for an answer.

IOW, it's just more of the same old slip-shod, let's-not-control-for-other-causes, let's-not-get-into-statistical-significance, gimme-some-mo-grant-money and scare-everybody crap "science" re: grilled/smoked/heated/peppered food (ah, I LUVS me some nitrosamine-laden pepper! ).

As others have stated, there's one thing I know for sure: there is a 100% mortality rate associated with life.

 

[Bronze]

There has to be more specific info about fire cured tobacco and health somewhere, but so far the only reference to additional concern I can find is this:

" ... Fire-cured tobacco, which contains other undesired components as well,such as benzopyrene."

http://goodhealth.freeservers.com/nitrosamines.html

Glad I'm not a lab rat!

Good info VM

 

[Bronze]

Vape away. Not another word from me.

 

[gthompson]

I think we need to tickle Bronze.

 

[rdsok]

I actually don't think I was selling anyone short by saying that we didn't appear to have the proper education for the subject you brought up to do it justice... There are a lot here that are ( or at least appear to have .. lol ) a lot of intelligence IMO... just not to speak on this particular subject in any manner other than conjecture. Trying to guess what the ingredients being used is a far cry from saying factually that there is a significant increased chance of developing cancer.

 

[EleanorR]

Vape away. Not another word from me.

Aww, don't go away mad!

I have a sudden urge for popcorn and take-away Chinese food; anyone care to join me?

 

[rdsok]

Vape away. Not another word from me.

Aww, don't go away mad!

I have a sudden urge for popcorn and take-away Chinese food; anyone care to join me?

I agree with El here... don't go away mad. You brought up a subject and shouldn't be offended by others that may not answer in a manner you expected... They are just other opinions on the very subject you started... isn't that what you intended?

Personally, food-wise... I'm thinking of charcoaling a rib-eye and roasting some veggies... If I had some pig fat ( ie bacon ), I'd add some of that in also... all in honor

 

[VaporMizer]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17070977/

"... Heat-exchange process cured tobacco contains significantly lower concentrations of tobacco specific nitrosamines (TSNAs) compared to traditional direct-fire cured tobacco.......... In this assay, the dermal tumor-promotion potential of CSC* from heat-exchange flue-cured tobacco did not differ from that of traditional direct-fire flue-cured tobacco CSC*."

* CSC = Cigarette Smoke Condensate

So I guess that study shows more potential carcinogens in fire cured tobacco over flue cured, but it didn't make any difference in tumor promotion?


EDIT: Mmmmmm.....Cigarette Smoke Condensate...

 

[shatner]

That was my take, Vapormizer. But it's not anything I'd worry about with vaping; there's no combustion, and no CSC.

*I have absolutely NO authority on this subject*

 

[y cherry y]

How about my Blackhawks Scarfy? Beat up the Wings last night. They're on their way to the Cup this year.

I know that Chicago fans like to call series after one game, but we're going to insist that you win four, okay?

 

[Cnew]

I know that Chicago fans like to call series after one game, but we're going to insist that you win four, okay?

Hey now, don't count the Western Conference out yet. LA or SJ could 'wup sum bums' still!

 

[Bronze]

I know that Chicago fans like to call series after one game, but we're going to insist that you win four, okay?

We will. And I always knew it would take four wins.

 

[Roots820]

I too love smoked meats, have two smokers. We'll have to share some samples of that also!

Also have a couple of 510 attys you can have for testing flavors if you want them.

Seems a bit ironic to me how some people that used to smoke cigarettes are now so hyper health (scare) conscious.

I have two smokers as well but one is pretty much retired. My main is an Oklahoma Joe Longhorn. I used to compete when i lived in KC so I'm a purist when it comes to heat sources. Only charcoal and wood, no electric or gas. I'll have to trade you some pulled pork for those attys . I considered smoking something this weekend but it looks like I'll wait until next weekend now.

 

[scarf-ace]

Bronze, as others have said, it isn't that we don't collectively have the intelligence. I think we're a pretty smart crowd here.
It's that we don't have any actual knowledge of the science. We'd just be guessing at the answer to your question.
And I think as vapers, we've all had enough of people acting judgmentally on matters in which they know nothing.
If this really troubles you, then by all means research it and tell us what you find out.

 

[y cherry y]

We will. And I always knew it would take four wins.

You DID watch today's game, right?

 

[scarf-ace]

I'll have to trade you some pulled pork for those attys .

That has to be the greatest deal in the history of human commerce!

 

[y cherry y]

Bronze, as others have said, it isn't that we don't collectively have the intelligence. I think we're a pretty smart crowd here.
It's that we don't have any actual knowledge of the science. We'd just be guessing at the answer to your question.
And I think as vapers, we've all had enough of people acting judgmentally on matters in which they know nothing.
If this really troubles you, then by all means research it and tell us what you find out.

There was a great This American Life episode in which Ira Glass gives a name to the impulse to make up explanations for complex phenomena without actual knowledge of said phenomena. And the name is, American Jackass.

So, that said, would you like me to explain why partially hydrogenated vegetable oil is dangerous?

 

[johni]

I have two smokers as well but one is pretty much retired. My main is an Oklahoma Joe Longhorn. I used to compete when i lived in KC so I'm a purist when it comes to heat sources. Only charcoal and wood, no electric or gas. I'll have to trade you some pulled pork for those attys . I considered smoking something this weekend but it looks like I'll wait until next weekend now.

Competition BBQ!! Bring some over and you can have any of my vaping stuff you want! I want to cook with you sometime.