Nearing disaster in New York - please take action NOW to prevent e-cigarette ban.
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Some of them are likely worried that the total senate support may not be so total if any of the less informed had a chance to hear what we had to say.
New York does appear to be "different" from the other states we've visited.
Time will tell if they are corrupt to the bone or not.
Charley I feel frustrated as you do--I want to help,but the Senate will pay no attention to anyone from anyone out of state. Ho[efully they will allow public comments and many from New York will be able to attend. I have wondered if we could contribute financially so someone like Bill Godshall could speak to the Health Committee and the Senate. I am speaking of paying his travel expenses. Just a thought,but he would lend credibility as would someone like Dr. Nitzkin(sp.)
Kristin what do you think?
I think I understand that with an invitation, it is possible to attend, so that may be one thing that NewYorkers can work on obtaining.
If this is something that could be helpful, I'm all for helping to send a credible person that could shine some light and be allowed a voice to represent all of us, since this is something that we are all bound to face at some point, especially if an uniformed and outrageous ban happens in NY.
With my "hippie' kicking in, i'm also thinking organized protest...a permit for the people to have a right to peacefully assemble in protest of the proposed ban, which could bring public awareness and media coverage to what is going on, and possibly on a large scale, which is something that i think should be able to be done to get this to the mainstream, though that could be something that only New Yorkers could do as well. If it was something that could help, I'd jump right in my car and head up there to join in. It just feels that something drastic, and within the law to represent our rights is in order. I see on the news where people assemble in protest to proposed legislation all over the country. The obvious misinformation that is involved in this legislation, that includes outright lies and uninformed voting, which in this case stands unanimous against the PV so far, is something that is VERY hard to sit back and hope for the best, with the possibility that our states could be the next victims. I know that many New Yorkers, as well as people from other places have attempted to reach these people, and hopefully that will bear some impact. I try to remain optimistic that this will be cut down, as attempts in other states have been able to do. Justice is blind, but organized and slanted propeganda has 20/20 vision.
I know I speak of organized protest and demonstration (which I believe falls under the 1st amendment) but I don't know the details of how it works. The protests that I took part in were against the FDA in the early '70's, we were able to get permits to peacefully assemble, and with the closed door approach to this legislation, it feels like there is not much of a chance to get in there and speak out against obvious corruption. If permits to assemble legally are something that is obtainable, that's where I see this as a perfect opportunity to look in the face of something that is an outrage and feels like a railroading. I just don't understand how a closed door approach to this is constitutional.
I am grateful for all of the people who have actively pursued this, and though I do feel like I'm just sitting back twiddling my thumbs, my mind is working overtime. I see Shades of the '60's and early 70's and a strong voice in the face of the opposition, in this case and the FDA. I know the funding is not there to stand up to super powers and the list continues to grow of opposition to e-cigs for financial gain and interests, not health issues.
I read in a blog by Instead from May 5th (which I am sure many here have read) and I quote part of that article:
"Motives are fun to guess, but lets look at some facts. According to this online article from PreventCancer.com about the American Cancer Society, for every $1 spent on direct service, approximately $6.40 is spent on compensation and overhead. In all ten states, salaries and fringe benefits are by far the largest single budget items, a surprising fact in light of the characterization of the appeals, which stress an urgent and critical need for donations to provide cancer services.
So who pays the salary of people like Keenan Caldwell? Many individual donors of course, but there are some substantial donations of over 1 million dollars coming from corporations such as Novartis Corporation (maker of Habitrol and Thrive), Pfizer Inc, (maker of Nicotrol®NS and Nicotrol® Inhaler), Walmart (sells NRTs in their pharmacy), and Walgreen Co. (sells NRTs in their pharmacy).
Coming out against the electronic cigarette as a public health organization while being funded by corporations who make and sell competing products is suspicious at best".
Walmart and Walgreens? That's enough to make me boycott those stores!
The article is at: Virginia Attorney General is Smart | Electronic Cigarettes by Instead E-Cigarette
My mother worked for the ALA many years ago and quit when she found out what the salaries of the top dogs were making, and coming from donations from people who thought they were doing a good thing to promote an organization that was "looking out for our health".
For now we have our AG seeing the truth about e-cigs, and in a main tobacco state I find this to be something good. For now, Virginia is appearing to be a true "Rebel" state, and I hope that holds true if and when we come under attack by misled and/or corrupt attempts to ban instead of proper regulation and research. I don't see a fair chance in the USA to perform unbiased research because of the big money that tends to buy out the results. We rely on authentic research from other countries that base their findings on fact instead of money, and these results help reassure us that we have indeed made the right decision to vape instead of inhale combustible smoke and thousands of chemicals, though that choice is clearly an obvious one and scares the 'powers that be" in the US to eliminate the competition so that their sacred money train stays on track, regardless of the true health issues involved.
New York....There are many of us around the world watching and holding our breath that the truth will shine above corrupt lawmakers. It's hard to sit back and feel helpless when it is out of our hands unless there is something, somehow, somewhere that we can find a way to help.
As a sidenote, I started to think about Matt Salmon and the ECA while I was writing this post, and went to their website. Where are they and what are they doing? All I saw on their site was basically a mirror image of the info on CASAA's site, including a link to Kristen's petition. Unless I am missing something from what the ECA is doing, which is entirely possible, I am seeing a news reporting site that is asking for donations and doing the same thing I could do by making my own website...finding info and posting links. The only difference I see is using a former congressman to represent validity. If I am wrong about this, I am eager to hear what I'm missing. I was excited when I first heard of the ECA, thinking that we had a heavy hitter on our side, and joined their mailing list, but don't hear anything coming from them. I looked at their site thinking that they would be able to help NY and instead I see info on how to contact congressmen, Obama, and still leaving it up to us to hold the front lines. I want to be wrong in what I see their role as, and I would gladly stand corrected if I am. Perhaps I really am missing something, but I feel disappointed in what I see there.
Am I mad? No, I'm fuming mad!
Well said, Charley. You've hit the nail on the head and cracked it wide open. A peaceful demonstration is urgently needed in Albany. I like the idea of attracting media attention. One person acting alone will always be viewed as a "trouble maker" but if several people get involved, it could become a movement. Just an idea - perhaps we can get the Tea Party on board? This issue has so many facets - freedom of choice, taxation, corruption and so on... Regarding the ECA, I have also wondered what they're doing (if anything). Any thoughts and info would be welcome - as a New Yorker, I would like to know more about what those nimrods in Albany are up to and who our allies are in this mess...
Thanks Silentius, I appreciate it! The last thing I want is to appear as being irresponsible in my post, but concerned to the point of realizing that it may be that the only outlet is to do something on a large scale within the law and organized. I remember from my previous protests that we were given a certain area to peacefully demonstrate our opposition, and if we crossed that line, we were subject to arrest. Peacefully demonstrating within the law is one of our rights...at least the last time I checked it was!
As I look at the possibility of media attention, that would maybe allow a responsible and knowledgeable representative at the demonstration to speak openly of the concerns and address the issue publicly, regardless of what is happening behind closed doors. Protest signs, displaying our messages, would help bring the issue out even more.
I have spoken to many people that I know and none of them even know that this situation even exists, which doesn't help at all. I know that right now I am "preaching to the choir" but that is the starting place to gain the support to take it to the streets.
I love New York (not to copy the slogan lol) and have been there many times and have friends there. I think of them, some of which are vapers, and want to be of help, though I know that there is nothing I can personally do, and it is indeed frustrating. These politicians that are running the show on this are not going to listen to a "pretty please' approach and the fight needs to be in their face as much as possible, all from a legal and level headed approach. My previous post was from a night of laying in bed, thinking about your situation and trying to figure some way I could help and came up with nothing since I don't live there. My heart and spirit are with you all up there and I tend to think of this wreckless legislation as if it were happening here, as one day it may. I know if it did, I would do my best to help organize a demonstration if I was trying to reach deaf ears on the matter.
I also am aware that the ideas that I presented would classify me as a troublemaker to the powers that be in New York and that they would have a very easy job of passing this into law without representation from vapers that can shed light and truth on the subject. I know that there have been MANY people in New York that have actively tried to communicate with the lawmakers and I certainly don't undermine the hard work that they are doing to help stop this atrocity from becoming law. Since I can't do anything but write about my feelings and ideas, I am thankful for ECF to be able to vent and offer my thoughts on this. I know there are doctors, lawyers, and many professionals here in many fields, and I am quite certain that the opposition reads what is written here to see what is being said since it is such a well known forum. I know we have nothing to hide and seek the truth, which is more than can be said from the organizations that are in full metal jackets to ban PV's from the US altogether.
It would be awesome to have an acoustic guitarist that wrote vaping songs to sing at a demonstration too! (I know, I play guitar but wasn't thinking of myself haha!) The Tea Party could possibly be an asset, I don't know. I just envision a peaceful gathering of positive messages to break down the walls and don't know who would be the best outlet to turn to for help that would upscale the situation for the NY Vapers. I was hoping that the ECA would have enough power to have a say in the issue, but that doesn't appear to be the case as far as I can tell.
I know that I speak for many when I say that we are with you and feel the stress that you are facing. The benefits of vapers and those that would not be subjected to second hand smoke go without saying, at least on this forum, but not in the "real world". I joined the CASAA as a supporting member because of their public awareness campaigns and documented proof of the safety of alternatives. I am definitely an activist, I know my limitations on knowledge and will be the first to admit when I am wrong and willing to stand corrected. I listen and learn before I open my mouth (or type) and try to look at everything in an objective and open minded perspective. I spent months on this forum reading and trying to find things that I could say that haven't been repeated and run into the ground before starting to post. There are so many here with tons of knowledge that I read what they have to say with great interest.
Sending power and positive vibes to all vapers, supporters, and friends of vapers in New York!!!!!!
-Charley
As I look at the possibility of media attention, that would maybe allow a responsible and knowledgeable representative at the demonstration to speak openly of the concerns and address the issue publicly, regardless of what is happening behind closed doors. Protest signs, displaying our messages, would help bring the issue out even more.
I have spoken to many people that I know and none of them even know that this situation even exists, which doesn't help at all. I know that right now I am "preaching to the choir" but that is the starting place to gain the support to take it to the streets.
I love New York (not to copy the slogan lol) and have been there many times and have friends there. I think of them, some of which are vapers, and want to be of help, though I know that there is nothing I can personally do, and it is indeed frustrating. These politicians that are running the show on this are not going to listen to a "pretty please' approach and the fight needs to be in their face as much as possible, all from a legal and level headed approach. My previous post was from a night of laying in bed, thinking about your situation and trying to figure some way I could help and came up with nothing since I don't live there. My heart and spirit are with you all up there and I tend to think of this wreckless legislation as if it were happening here, as one day it may. I know if it did, I would do my best to help organize a demonstration if I was trying to reach deaf ears on the matter.
I also am aware that the ideas that I presented would classify me as a troublemaker to the powers that be in New York and that they would have a very easy job of passing this into law without representation from vapers that can shed light and truth on the subject. I know that there have been MANY people in New York that have actively tried to communicate with the lawmakers and I certainly don't undermine the hard work that they are doing to help stop this atrocity from becoming law. Since I can't do anything but write about my feelings and ideas, I am thankful for ECF to be able to vent and offer my thoughts on this. I know there are doctors, lawyers, and many professionals here in many fields, and I am quite certain that the opposition reads what is written here to see what is being said since it is such a well known forum. I know we have nothing to hide and seek the truth, which is more than can be said from the organizations that are in full metal jackets to ban PV's from the US altogether.
It would be awesome to have an acoustic guitarist that wrote vaping songs to sing at a demonstration too! (I know, I play guitar but wasn't thinking of myself haha!) The Tea Party could possibly be an asset, I don't know. I just envision a peaceful gathering of positive messages to break down the walls and don't know who would be the best outlet to turn to for help that would upscale the situation for the NY Vapers. I was hoping that the ECA would have enough power to have a say in the issue, but that doesn't appear to be the case as far as I can tell.
I know that I speak for many when I say that we are with you and feel the stress that you are facing. The benefits of vapers and those that would not be subjected to second hand smoke go without saying, at least on this forum, but not in the "real world". I joined the CASAA as a supporting member because of their public awareness campaigns and documented proof of the safety of alternatives. I am definitely an activist, I know my limitations on knowledge and will be the first to admit when I am wrong and willing to stand corrected. I listen and learn before I open my mouth (or type) and try to look at everything in an objective and open minded perspective. I spent months on this forum reading and trying to find things that I could say that haven't been repeated and run into the ground before starting to post. There are so many here with tons of knowledge that I read what they have to say with great interest.
Sending power and positive vibes to all vapers, supporters, and friends of vapers in New York!!!!!!
-Charley
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The ECA is more of a trade organization, not an activist or consumer advocacy organization. That is one reason why CASAA was born.
Edited to add: I wonder why "ECA" gets the little underlined definition link and "CASAA" doesn't??
Edited to add: I wonder why "ECA" gets the little underlined definition link and "CASAA" doesn't??
The ECA is more of a trade organization, not an activist or consumer advocacy organization. That is one reason why CASAA was born.
Edited to add: I wonder why "ECA" gets the little underlined definition link and "CASAA" doesn't??
Thanks Kristen! That explains a lot and I'm with you! CASAA should have an underlined definition as well!!!!
Thank you, Kristin - and thank you for your many efforts! Yes, I realize its a trade organization but if this ban or others like it go through, there wont be much of a trade left. In light of this, I suppose they should have as much of an interest in these developments as the rest of us and I was wondering what actions theyre taking. Id like to get as many people as possible involved in this fight - manufacturers, vendors and of course, consumers like us. Big Tobacco and Big Pharma may have the $$$ and influence, but we definitely have the numbers - so yes, maybe its time to make a little more noise on all fronts. Charley is absolutely right and like many of us, I share his frustration - Im way down here in NYC and theres little I can do regarding Albany. Ive sent the e-mails, now the sail mail and next week, Ill be jumping on the phone as my schedule permits. Mark my words, they WILL hear my big mouth... =) Lastly, Ill be getting to those petitions and Id urge everyone on this forum to do the same. OK, enough ranting. LOL
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And thanks Silentius! Kristen is amazing with her efforts and energizing to us all! It is a point worth repeating and I share the same viewpoint on her hard work and a voice of leadership in the e-cig community. I just wanted to echo your comment on her hard work and dedication. I do believe she will be in the history books one day as being in the forefront of this whole ordeal!
I'm right there with you, Silentius. Getting vendor support has been very difficult, if not impossible. It is a wonder that so many don't make the connection between advocacy and the future of their business.
There have been many who do a lot though - Webby, Drew, eplanet - to name just a few.
The ECA has been a disappointment, but I think the high membership fees stopped a lot of vendors in their tracks. There are a few vendors who are organizing "behind the scenes" and I wish them the best.
Oh sheesh, please!! People are going to start thinking I have a big head! I'm certainly not a one-man-show. There are a lot of ecig advocates who work even harder than I do - I just talk a lot!! One day, some bigwig will take up the fight and we'll be little more than a footnote, if even that, lol! I have big hopes for CASAA, though - I believe it will be an influencial and respected organization some day and I'm honored to be a part of it!
I have big hopes for CASAA, though - I believe it will be an influencial and respected organization some day and I'm honored to be a part of it!
I think you work too hard to get a big head!!!! Even if there are people who work harder, since you talk a lot, it gets the message out which is of the utmost importance right now and that's how I found out that there was real research being done when I first started vaping through your references in your posts. You were a big part of me not falling for FDA propeganda since the info I found in searches seemed to all come with ads to buy e-cigs from them and with no documentation to back their info until I started to find your articles. Even if you end up as a footnote, I still think CASAA will be there! I have hopes that funding will continue to grow for CASAA and you know I will be helping with that every chance I get! CASAA could very well end up being the bigwig!!!My whole outlook is that the invention of the e-cig is pure genius, and the technology should be embraced, not banned. What doesn't work right can be fixed through unbiased research and true interest in harm reduction. I think of analogs as the old 8 track players of the 1970's and PV's as the mp3's of today.
It is long and dense, the lines are so short also, do you have a pdf text of it?
I wonder if a thread could be started to address everything in it, in anorganized manner?
It may even help anyone who meets with legislators or even succeeds in getting an invitation.
I guess you just didn't want to read or acknowledge what I already posted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yvilla
And just so there's no confusion, the nicotine in NRT drugs makes for a drug product under Chapter 5 primarily because of "intended use", as opposed to the different "intended use" of nicotine in tobacco products.
The legislative scheme for all this is pretty clear. Under the FDCA, products containing nicotine that are intended and marketed for use in smoking cessation and treating nicotine dependence are "drug products", regulated under Chapter 5. But products containing nicotine that are NOT so intended, that is, "tobacco products", are to be regulated under the new Chapter of the FDCA created by last summer's tobacco legislation.
Read these quotes from Judge Leon's decision, if you don't want to believe me on this point:
“Under the Tobacco Act, FDA may now regulate tobacco products, which the Act defines as ‘any product made or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption,’ 21 U.S.C. §321 (rr) (l),
...[quote continued in a moment]...
It seems that it may be better that ecigs are not a drug/device, doesn't it? ("but it cannot regulate..."):
But it does specify a certain part, and I wonder about other pertinent parts. This legislation detail discussion would take up it's own thread or two, I would be glad for someone to start one, please do if you think it would help, or whoever could even slightly benefit from it. Although it is at the federal level, I think it's also important to to keep federal and state defense of ecigs agreeable with one another.
For now, I mostly see it as a cigarette, improved through the centuries with science.
edit to add: [The problem is that Big Tobacco isn't the one who made them, such that the life history of the cigarette could have possibly and abruptly changed at the time the last commercial analog was manufactured, follwed immediately by the first commercial ecig manufactured. ~end edit addition] Experientially, the user is still smoking. Maybe legislation must be written specifically for ecigs. then...
perhaps The Obama Act Part II--electronic cigarettes.
Otherwise, if the act has a negative result on ecigs, and perhaps even a favorable and simultaneous result for analogs, then almost clearly imo the writer of the Act has failed tremendously and dangerously.
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When you call ask them for information about campaign contributions from cigarette companies. So far I have talked to four people on the list (well their secretaries) and all the conversations started the same way: They could care less what I was saying. I then added I was doing research on all of them concerning campaign contributions from cigarette companies and thought the news would be interested that they were trying to ban a healthier alternative to smoking. They immediately changed their tune. This is the only way we are going to win this one; fight fire with fire. If we can expose they received money for their campaign from cigarette companies then we can make a reasonable argument they are trying to ban ecigs to help analog companies profit.
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