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New Calculator to try

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by HotRod19579, Oct 16, 2013.

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  1. IDJoel

    IDJoel Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2015
    Boise, ID
    Silly me; now I understand!:2cool:

    Those were part of a group of recipes that was assembled from the TFA Recipes thread; and are credited to ECF member @Bill's Magic Vapor. He was (is?) a "high flavor" mixer. The person who assembled the recipes (sorry; I would give credit if I knew) named them that way: by total flavor percentage, followed by Bill;s assigned recipe name. With the alphanumeric standards the coding uses, recipe names beginning with numbers come before those beginning with letters.

    So, the short answer is "they were just named that way." (nothing in the program did it for me).

    Does that make sense? Or did I just make that "clear as mud?":facepalm:
    :D
     
  2. tariqml

    tariqml Full Member

    Jan 15, 2018
    Ok Thanks for your help much appreciated, you been very helpful if i run into any other problem on software will come back
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Olly89

    Olly89 New Member

    Jan 18, 2018
    Many thanks for the in depth help, I'm on mobile at the min but I'll check all this when I get back later today and edit this comment.

    EDIT: So I've got quantity amounts for all my ingredients (shown below). I scrolled down just to show that I've also got entries for PG/VG/nic, however I've never bothered with a manufacturer so not sure if that makes a difference. I do get a warning when I haven't selected my nic in the dropdown (also below) but that's the only warning I get. Even if I change the batch size to something huge like 50,000ml I don't get a warning..

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I've never set my inventory alarm threshold so from what you seemed to be discussing might not make a difference but I might have a play around with that and see if affects anything.
    I was actually always a bit baffled why it didn't show the specific ingredient but now I know! I've also screenshotted a standard ingredient entry just to make sure I've not missed anything.
    [​IMG]

    The only thing I can think is that I disabled something in settings accidentally when I first got running with the program.

    EDIT: Yeah got it sorted, all the options (below) were unticked so either they were like that by default or (more likely) I'd been an idiot and disabled them for some reason. So ticked them and everything seems fine. So haven't sorted the fact it goes blank when I tick the available inventory option but to be honest prefer this anyway! Cheers.
    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. IDJoel

    IDJoel Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2015
    Boise, ID
    You beat me to it!:D
    Exactly where I was going to suggest looking next. Through a little experimenting of my own; I found the culprit to be the "Display inventory amounts" button. When unchecked, the red text disappears; check the box, and the red returns.
    upload_2018-1-24_18-57-54.png

    I'm glad you got it figured out. And, in the process, you taught me something too.:thumbs:
    :toast: back at ya!
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. IDJoel

    IDJoel Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2015
    Boise, ID
    Hi @TrIPpY-, and welcome to ECF.

    I do not use Scubabatdan's calculator; so I felt I was being inappropriate responding in that particular thread. I use Juice Calculator which is what this thread is about; so I am answering here.

    I plugged your proposed recipe:
    21mL --- 30PG/70VG 18mg/mL nic base
    4.5mL -- PG
    3.0mL -- DW
    (Note: DW is niether PG or VG based so it does not affect the PG/VG ratio. It does affect the overall volume, and therefore the dilution of all ingredients <such as nicotine, and flavors when used>)

    and this calculator gave this result:
    42.35%PG/57.65%VG @ 13.26mg/mL nicotine and 10.53% DW (more than twice your original product)
    upload_2018-1-24_22-1-22.png
    (click to enlarge)
    It sounds like you are pouring into a graduated cylinder to measure; so if this is close enough for you... you are good to go.

    You mention this is the original product you are trying to replicate:
    InaweraVPG PLUS 12
    upload_2018-1-24_22-12-28.png
    (click for source link)

    The first three ingredients are pretty straight forward:
    PG = 43%
    VG = 49%
    DW = 5% (but remember; this doesn't count to the PG/VG ratio)
    nic = 12mg/mL
    Now comes my first guess. The ethyl maltol would most likely have been PG based. So, because you want to omit this, we need to add its 3% to the PG. Now the recipe looks like this:
    PG = 46%
    VG = 49%
    DW = 5% (but remember; this doesn't count to the PG/VG ratio)
    nic = 12mg/mL
    For our PG/VG to equal 100%; we are still 5% short (46%+49%=95%). This "should be" the nicotine concentrate. (If they are using a nic concentration of 250mg/mL, that would require 4.8%, and rounded up... that would be the remaining 5(ish)%)

    Now, because you are NOT using that high of a concentration, but using 18mg/mL instead; we know your recipe will require 66.67% (2/3 of 18mg/mL =12mg/mL).
    So now I apply that to the calculator and get this for your final recipe:

    50.88%PG/49.12%VG 12mg/mL nic
    66.67% 30PG/70VG 18mg/mL nicotine base ..... (20.0mL for 30mL recipe)
    28.33% PG ......................................................... (8.5mL for 30mL recipe)
    5.0% DW ............................................................ (1.5mL for 30mL recipe)

    upload_2018-1-24_23-18-30.png

    That is as close as I can figure out how to get you. I hope that helps!:D
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. TrIPpY-

    TrIPpY- Full Member

    Jan 24, 2018
    Enormous thank you for this detailed reply.

    Ok, ok, so the vg/pg percentages are always a ratio
    of just the two and not a percentage of the total volume.
    That's really stuff someone would like to know.
    I wish they'd write it on the bottle label so that that
    becomes more clear or is that why they use percentages
    instead of -for example- ml?

    I do get a nice almost 100 when i add up the percentages
    on the VPG PLUS 12 label. That's why it made me think that
    the VG and PG percentages are part of the total volume.

    Saves a step in my calculation though when the demi water is
    added........... *yay*

    I'm glad i was on the right route because the 42.35%PG/57.65%VG
    is what i got after adding just the PG.

    Very excited to find out how it tastes. I wasn't really trying to
    replicate the VPG PLUS 12 but use it as a reference because
    it's a nice vape but with just slightly to much throat hit for me.

    Your calculator is just for Windows right? Too bad because
    i'm on Linux.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. IDJoel

    IDJoel Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2015
    Boise, ID
    You are most welcome. I am glad I could help!:D
    The PG/VG ratio is just that: the ratio of all PG-containing ingredients; to VG-containing ingredients. If, it has neither PG or VG, it doesn't affect the resulting ratio.

    Where new mixers often make errors in their math is forgetting that things like the PG (or VG) used as a carrier (base) for flavor concentrates and nicotine, also count to the total PG/VG ratio. Then it can get further complicated if the concentrate contains both. It isn't "hard;" it just requires paying attention.;)

    Non PG/VG containing ingredients do affect the dilution and total volume. So, when I am using concentrated ingredients (such as nic, and.or flavorings) I take into account the total desired volume vs. PG/VG ratio.

    As for percentages not being regularly found on labels; I am guessing that it is because it is too much like providing the recipe. If I know what percentages are provided, all I have to do, is find the correct ingredient. Then I can produce a comparable item for less money and hurt sales.

    When all it states it PG, VG, nicotine, and artificial flavors; I am going to have a much harder time trying to replicate it.
    They are part of it in the most basic of terms. But the math is really not interconnected. (because the PG/VG ratio ignores non-containing ingredients)
    Not quite sure what you mean by this. Yes... DW does not "count" toward the PG/VG ratio. But also NO... you still have to take it into account for dilution and total volume.
    Yep. Once you don't try to account for water in the PG/VG ratio; the only glaring error I saw was doubling up on the water (10% instead of 5%).:rolleyes:

    And, to be honest; I am not sure why Inawera adds water in the first place. A 50/50 ratio should be plenty thin enough to wick well in any of today's atomizers. In the early vaping days, with small tight cartomizers, I could see needing to thin it... but not today.
    I hope you enjoy it!:thumbs:

    If it is throat hit you are trying to reduce; you might try reducing the PG and upping the VG. The three main throat hit contributor are nicotine, certain flavor concentrates (which you aren't using), and PG. Some also find that certain atomizers, coil builds, power/temperature settings, airflow settings, and wicking method, (all hardware issues) can add or diminish throat hit.
    Short answer... yes/correct. However, now that I have said that, there are several on this thread that have said the have had perfectly good results running JuiceCalculator on Linxus; using a Windows emulator like Wine (I think).

    But, I am not the one to give advise on that, as I am not particularly computer literate, and have NO experience with Linux.

    If you want more details; first try this:
    In the search box found at the top right corner of this (and every ECF) page; enter the search criteria ("linux"; in this case) and then make sure the "Search this thread only" box is checked. Then click search. It should look like this:
    upload_2018-1-25_2-24-36.png
    Using the "Search this thread only" box will keep the results confined to linux comments on this Juice Calculator thread.

    If that doesn't get you going; feel free to post here with any further questions. I am sure one of the linux users will try to help.:D
     
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  8. TrIPpY-

    TrIPpY- Full Member

    Jan 24, 2018
    And an enormous thanks again...

    That's why i was off with the, well these: vg/pg 51.882352942%:38.117647058%
    thinking the vg and pg percentages were part of the total volume. After adding 10%
    demi water (the 3.0 ml to get up to 28.5 ml) i took the 90% from the VG percentage
    (57.647058824%) and 90% from the PG (42.352941176%), since they in my mind
    were already percentages of the whole. (edit: before adding water they were,
    but only because they were the only 2 substances in the fluid... lol)

    In the step before that (just adding pure PG, so no water yet, only VG and PG)
    i had nicotine to 14.823529412 mg/ml. Then when adding the water
    i took the old/new (25.5/28.5=0.894736842) ratio of the 14.823529412
    and got the 13.263157895 mg/ml. So i'm glad something was correct.

    That was too get the nicotine down more towards the 12 mg/ml.
    So first get the vg/pg ratio better for the throat hit and then the
    nicotine down. I wasn't sure if i should dilute more (with viscosity
    in mind...understood once that higher vg to pg ratio is thinner already)
    and decided on 10% (getting nicotine level close enough).

    Thanks again.
     
  9. IDJoel

    IDJoel Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2015
    Boise, ID
    Re: using distilled (demi) water
    I am not a good candidate, for offering advise, when it comes to using DW. I did try it a couple of times early in my own DIY exploration, but the results were not very satisfactory, so my practice was soon abandoned.

    From my limited reading, and even more sketchy memory, water is used for two(?) common uses.
    1. Thinning the viscosity for better wicking. This (to me) seems to be a more old school rationale (though may be quite necessary when still using old(er?) cartomizers and tanks). Older devices had quite small (by today's standards) juice ports. I recall the cartomizer punches that were needed to add, and/or enlarge holes on the metal tubes. So it made sense that the need to thin more viscus mixtures could be necessary. But I cant recall the last time I read someone reporting having had an issue due to viscosity.

    2. There are some, who feel that using a small percentage of water can add a bit of moistness, to help combat dry-mouth. My own experience did not support this theory; but I respect those with different opinions. (I will say that on a couple of mixes I have had a bit of success using saline solution; but usually using INW-Cactus works as good/better, for adding needed "wetness.")

    3. I have a 100% unsubstantiated suspicion that some manufacturers may use it, solely as a nearly free "filler." Thereby, lowering the production cost per mL.

    If none of that does anything for you, you may want to try a small batch without any water, and see if you notice a difference.

    I can't recall reading any opinions about what water does/doesn't do for throat hit. I don't have any idea if it adds to it, suppresses it, or has no effect at all.

    As for PG, VG, and their relation to viscosity and throat hit; my experience is:

    • PG: Thin. Only a bit thicker than water. Better flavor carrier than VG. Is harsher/has more throat hit than VG. Gives me more dry-mouth than VG. Produces less dense/more wispy clouds... better when trying to be more stealthy when vaping.

    • VG: Thick. Much thicker than water or PG. Flavors seem to take longer to develop in a high VG mixes. Has a natural subtle sweetness. Little, to no throat hit. Does not aggravate dry-mouth. Does seem to contribute to my "heavy" chest feeling when vaped at high ratios over time. Creates thicker, more dense, more voluminous clouds.
    So; I find that:
    • Higher PG (lower VG) ratios will: be thinner; and have more throat hit, and have thinner/less dense, more wispy vapor clouds.
    • Higher VG (lower PG) ratios will: be thicker; and have less throat hit, and have thicker/more dense vapor clouds.
    I am one of those people who like to vape unflavored e-liquid as a big part of my vaping routine. I still like flavored e-liquid on occasion; but they are now more of a treat, than a necessity. I don't like throat hit, but I also don't like the heaviness of high VG mixes. I could not care less about clouds. I have experimented with ratios from 60PG/40VG all the way to 10PG/90VG. I have finally settles on a ratio of 35PG/65VG as being best for me at this time.

    After 5 years of vaping, and 4 years of vaping only my own DIY, my vaping preferences and DIY understanding continue to change and evolve. The one thing I am certain of is I am certain of nothing. Now that you have ventured into your own DIY adventure; keep an open mind, don't be afraid to try different things, and have fun.
    I wish you satisfaction, and success, on your new journey! :D:toast:
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. TrIPpY-

    TrIPpY- Full Member

    Jan 24, 2018
    Yes you are right. higher VG to PG ratio mixes are thicker.
    I guess the added water isn't so bad then.From what i've
    been reading up on, i understand that e-liquid is an
    azeotrope. I guess the boiling point lowers by changing the
    composition by addition of a new fluid with a lower boiling
    point than... :unsure: i guess the substance with the highest
    boiling point in the mix. If that is true, then probably the
    vaporization temperature lowers too. So the extra water
    might make the vapor cooler. (correction: e-liquid is not an
    azeotrope. that was disputed pretty good further in the
    thread. The lower boiling point might still apply)

    I use this (tf-n2 air) coil unit in my Smok TFV4 tank:
    smok_tf-n2_air.jpg
    I notice with the VPG PLUS 12 and the V2 congress i used
    before that when liquid level falls below the top of the fluid
    holes a several times, the cotton turns brown. I suspect this is
    not a good thing, so i fill up before that happens. So with
    a little thinner liquid wicking is faster. So it will probably
    help in this case.

    I have wattage, temperature control and airflow set to
    maximum possible air flow with this tank and coil head, to get
    a rich enough, good tasting vapor. And it's actually entirely
    by trial and error on taste preference.

    I would like a clearomizer tank with a quite bigger airflow some
    time so i can up the wattage (to create a bigger cloud faster)
    and still vape at the appropriate temperature. But i'm pretty sure
    the coil head is holding me back, even though it's already the
    "air" version i'm using, with two extra air passages drilled.
    Unfortunately i don't like to have to make custom adjustments
    and like out of the box satisfactory products.

    Interesting stuff but time consuming.

    Thanks again for your previous answer.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Hoggy

    Hoggy Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 6, 2013
    WI, USA
    ... Another thing I noticed when trying higher VG blends is that the coils would gunk up much faster. That quickly got quite annoying, actually. So that, along with the fact that higher VG made my nose more runny - got me to settle towards 80pg/20vg to 70pg/30vg -- and as much as 40pg/60vg for my high-nic (16mg-36mg) wake-me-the-hell-up type juices. I think the runny nose thing is likely due to the fact that since I'm not a super-taster, I need to mostly exhale via my nose in order to taste anything at all (even food). And VG likes to attract water.

    Yet another reason I'm weary of higher-VG blends is because I'm scared of setting off this building's should-seriously-be-illegal loud-....(adult puritan alert) fire alarm. I'm not sure if the 'smoke' detectors would ever detect water vapor as smoke, but I'm not really in a hurry to find out. :)
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. TrIPpY-

    TrIPpY- Full Member

    Jan 24, 2018
    Don't you have a smoke detector at home?

    (edit: Ignore my question. This might going to run
    too much off-topic)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Hoggy

    Hoggy Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 6, 2013
    WI, USA
    I'm actually referring to my apartment building, so.. yup. :)
     
  14. Scouser

    Scouser Full Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Liverpool, UK
    It's been a while. Happy new year all. Have we heard from HotRod yet?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. dc99

    dc99 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 17, 2014
    nc,usa
    The ones that have an optical sensor can go off. A shower can set them off if you steam up the room they are in
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. IDJoel

    IDJoel Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2015
    Boise, ID
    He snuck another peek on ECF 1/17/18; but no posting (that I saw). He's still alive, but beyond that, I can't say.:D
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  17. Hoggy

    Hoggy Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 6, 2013
    WI, USA
    No worries.. I see most threads end up running much farther off-topic all the time. At some point, we could all use some socializing from time to time. It could get pretty boring, otherwise - and this thread is slow-moving right now anyways.

    Well, at least it's good to hear @HotRod19579 is ok - unless it's someone else with access to his account. Hopefully, he'll return at some point soon. Even if it's at least to release his code so hopefully some other programmers can carry the torch. Or maybe even set up a chain of succesion that some trusted members could hold current copies of his code and open-source it under a GNU-type license if he's not heard from within a certain time frame.

    Anybody able to make a $10,000 donation?? Maybe that will get him out of hiatus. :cool:
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  18. TrIPpY-

    TrIPpY- Full Member

    Jan 24, 2018
    In that case...

    Then it's probably tied into the buildings firealarm or something?
    Not one of those single ones on batteries?
    Oh wait... you already said that.

    I'm sure there must be smokers in the building too right?
    I've never heard a smokedetector go off from smoking
    cigarettes. But in case of optical smoke detectors...
    High VG vapor already looks thick too the
    human eye. More so than cigarette smoke.
    On the other hand cigarette smoke doesn't dissipate
    so fast and builds up more after continuous
    execution. It should be able to reach the detector
    dense enough in the first place.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Ed Sause

    Ed Sause Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 18, 2016
    Looks like we have run out of things to talk about.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  20. whollybuger

    whollybuger Full Member

    Feb 18, 2018
    gt
     

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