NEW CDC STUDY OFFICIALLY DEBUNKS ‘VAPING AND FORMALDEHYDE’ MYTH

[Zakillah]

I have a question..

Why speak at all? Why throw out numbers to a community who is frustrated with unscientific and uninformative methods doing nothing but scaring people away from a life saving invention and say "I'm a chemist, trust me I did the tests correctly"?

What's your goal there?

I'm here because I want to help people. I'm speaking now because I want to help people. I don't ever speak without some purpose in mind, even if that purpose is sometimes just to have fun or socialize.

So what is your purpose? Then perhaps, it would be more helpful if you actually added that reason as a caveat to a post where you are throwing around numbers. That way the community who is frustrated with half truths and incomplete information can, perhaps, understand better in what light we are to take your speaking, and therefore more easily able to process the information provided appropriately.

I do agree with you though, as to what the future might hold.

I don't understand how you can possibly interpret my postings as me wanting to scare people when I said the amounts are miniscule and most of the time even below level of quantification. I said that in other threads as well and I closed a post with it in this very thread.

My purpose? Giving information on a topic I have experience with? Isnt it obvious? Isnt this why people go to forums?
Just like everything you read pretty much everywhere, no matter if newspapers or internet; you are free to believe or be skeptical. I´m not telling you what to do with the information and I´m not insisting on believing me. That's up to you to decide. I don't have an agenda or hidden motives here; and again; the last thing I want is to scare people from picking up vaping.

 

[Opinionated]

I don't understand how you can possibly interpret my postings as me wanting to scare people when I said the amounts are miniscule and most of the time even below level of quantification. I said that in other threads as well and I closed a post with it in this very thread.

My purpose? Giving information on a topic I have experience with? Isnt it obvious? Isnt this why people go to forums?
Just like everything you read pretty much everywhere, no matter if newspapers or internet; you are free to believe or be skeptical. I´m not telling you what to do with the information and I´m not insisting on believing me. That's up to you to decide. I don't have an agenda or hidden motives here; and again; the last thing I want is to scare people from picking up vaping.

I'm sorry - truly. In general, I'm frustrated.. I'm frustrated with lies being peddled, I'm frustrated with studies geared for desired results, I'm frustrated with the people who believe those result driven studies as if they are new converts.

Just throwing out numbers isn't helpful. It doesn't matter if those numbers are good, if they are bad, or if they are indifferent.. if no one knows what those numbers might mean, then they are just scare tactics.

Saying 12ppm might be good, but if your not talking about why it's good, or what makes it good, how does it help?

If your all over this forum trying to correct incorrect information, why not go the extra mile and explain to new vapers and old vapers alike and discuss why your corrections make a difference to them, physically. (You might do that, I don't know)

All I'm saying in this thread is most of what is thrown around as information on the dangers of vaping is both often incorrect and unhelpful for anyone attempting to assess risk to themselves.

If you feel you can help others assess risk, then do so.. if not, then your set of numbers are just more numbers..

 

[ScottP]

No, not "nuff said".. there is plenty to be said.

There was NO earthly reason to make THAT comparison .. NONE. It's an incorrect correlation and you said so yourself, but you said it yourself in a manner that you hoped would be overlooked by those "big" numbers found in vapor coming off a coil.

That's like scare tactics 101 taken from b.s. click bait so-called news articles.

You may as well just tell people "here, I'm trying to scare you".. because that's all the use your words have to the average vaper.

Wrong. Here is the 100% full truth. Then I am done. It is 100% FACT, proven DECADES before vaping was ever invented, that PG and VG DO break down when heated to higher temps into various aldehydes, including but not limited to formaldehyde. How much it breaks down depends on how hot you get it. If you heat it enough to reach "full combustion" then instead of releasing aldehyde, it simply breaks down into carbon, hydrogen and water. However we do NOT want to try to reach full combustion (that is what we are getting away from by not smoking).

Formaldehyde is a strongly suspected carcinogen and has been linked to causing ALS. We do NOT know for sure what levels of exposure to formaldehyde are required to cause cancer or ALS and we do NOT know how much YOUR atomizer and build will release at temps exceeding 450F. It COULD be that if you are vaping at 450+F, your levels of exposure end up being under what ever the limit turns out to be, OR once the science comes in, it COULD turn out that your exposure level was higher than whatever the limit turns out to be. We do not know for sure yet. It is an unknown level of risk, that CAN, if you choose to do so, be proactively reduced.

Now YOU and everyone else has a choice. You can either ASSUME that you are not being overexposed and ignore the above and pray that after 20-30 years you are proven correct, OR you can err on the side of caution and take steps to limit your exposure now, just in case, OR you can quit altogether and not worry about it all.

 

[Opinionated]

Wrong. Here is the 100% full truth. Then I am done. It is 100% FACT, proven DECADES before vaping was ever invented, that PG and VG DO break down when heated to higher temps into various aldehydes, including but not limited to formaldehyde. How much it breaks down depends on how hot you get it. If you heat it enough to reach "full combustion" then instead of releasing aldehyde, it simply breaks down into carbon, hydrogen and water. However we do NOT want to try to reach full combustion (that is what we are getting away from by not smoking).

Formaldehyde is a strongly suspected carcinogen and has been linked to causing ALS. We do NOT know for sure what levels of exposure to formaldehyde are required to cause cancer or ALS and we do NOT know how much YOUR atomizer and build will release at temps exceeding 450F. It COULD be that if you are vaping at 450+F, your levels of exposure end up being under what ever the limit turns out to be, OR once the science comes in, it COULD turn out that your exposure level was higher than whatever the limit turns out to be. We do not know for sure yet. It is an unknown level of risk, that CAN, if you choose to do so, be proactively reduced.

Now YOU and everyone else has a choice. You can either ASSUME that you are not being overexposed and ignore the above and pray that after 20-30 years you are proven correct, OR you can err on the side of caution and take steps to limit your exposure now, just in case, OR you can quit altogether and not worry about it all.

What I'm saying is that we don't have to eliminate all potential exposure in order to reduce risk of harm.

As I said before, water can kill you when drank in sufficient quantity, but we don't run around and tell people water will kill them if they drink it, and we don't advice people don't drink it at all.

The formation of aldehydes in vaping are often not even in measurable quantity, and that's without using TC.

Sure, at some temperatures the potential increases I'm sure.. but does the average vaper actually vape at those more dangerous temperatures? No.. not from what I've seen so far although I don't yet hold a lot of weight in any of it at this time due to reasons already stated.

What evolve wants you to do is quit drinking water, when it's not necessary. Formaldehyde at high levels of exposure can be linked to higher occurences of leukemia and nasal or upper throat cancer than the general population.. but do vapers even compare to those exposure levels? Again, no, and that's without TC.

You don't have to eliminate all possible exposure - you have to know what harmful levels of exposure are, what other carcinogens absolutely cannot be in the mix for safety sake, (as formaldehyde mixed with particular carcinogens makes the formaldehyde itself more carcinogenic than it seems to be on its own) And keep it all at acceptable levels.

I don't vape anymore, but I didn't stop vaping because I was worried about vaping being harmful... I quit vaping because I wanted to be free from addiction, and so long as I have a vape in my hand I don't feel free.

I think trying to eliminate all potential aldehydes is unnecessary. In this life there is no such thing as harm elimination, and that is what your suggesting.

 

[ScottP]

What I'm saying is that we don't have to eliminate all potential exposure in order to reduce risk of harm.

As I said before, water can kill you when drank in sufficient quantity, but we don't run around and tell people water will kill them if they drink it, and we don't advice people don't drink it at all.

That isn't what I am suggesting at all. First I never said that vaping was more harmful than smoking. Smoking also contains formaldehyde. Nor did I say that vaping could be made 100% risk free. We also don't know what inhaling all these flavors will do but I am willing to take that risk (at least for now, I have considered trying unflavored). I am not suggesting that people don't drink the water, I am suggesting that if they don't know what is in their tap water, they might consider a filter. It is necessary? Well that depends on what you eventually find in your water. We won't have all the answers for decades. You can choose to filter it now to reduce risk, or you can choose to chance it and wait and see. If you wait and see though, and it turns out you were wrong, you may be screwed. If you filter and it turns out you were wrong, you are only out the cost of the filter. Considering nearly ALL modern regulated PV's have a TC feature already in it, there really isn't much of a cost even associated with using this particular "filter".

The formation of aldehydes (both harmful and not harmful forms) in vaping are often not even in measurable quantity, and that's without using TC.

Sure, at some temperatures the potential increases I'm sure.. but does the average vaper actually vape at those more dangerous temperatures? No.. not from what I've seen so far although I don't yet hold a lot of weight in any of it at this time due to reasons already stated.

What evolve wants you to do is quit drinking water, when it's not necessary. Formaldehyde at high levels of exposure can be linked to higher occurences of leukemia and nasal or upper throat cancer than the general population.. but do vapers even compare to those exposure levels? Again, no, and that's without TC.

So you claim to know the temp of everyone's coils?!?!? So many things effect the temp of a coil, from it's mass to the wattage supplied, amount of juice in the wick, airflow, etc. I can tell you as an experienced TC user, that 435F is roughly equivalent to just 17-20 watts on my Serpent SMM using a 0.5 ohm SS316 coil with the air flow mostly closed. I know people that vape this same tank well above that 20 watts, so what temp do you think they are at? I can also tell you this is a fairly cool vape. So what temp do you think people that like "warmer" vapes are at?

You don't have to eliminate all possible exposure - you have to know what harmful levels of exposure are, what other carcinogens absolutely cannot be in the mix for safety sake, (as formaldehyde mixed with some other carcinogens makes the formaldehyde itself more carcinogenic than it seems to be on its own) And keep it all at acceptable levels.

I don't vape anymore, but I didn't stop vaping because I was worried about vaping being harmful... I quit vaping because I wanted to be free from addiction, and so long as I have a vape in my hand I don't feel free.

It's personal, but I think trying to eliminate all potential aldehydes (tje good and the bad forms) is unnecessary. In this life there is no such thing as harm elimination, and that is what your suggesting.

Everything in this section is 100% opinion, and you are entitled to it, just as much as I am entitled to mine. Again I am not trying to, nor do I think it is even possible to eliminate 100% risks, in vaping or in life. I wear a seat belt when I drive because it is relatively safer than not wearing it. It doesn't 100% reduce risk from driving though and it is not guaranteed save my life. I filter my water, partially because it tastes better, and partially to reduce (not eliminate) contaminates in my water. I vape in TC not to eliminate risks but to reduce them.

I should also like to say I am not a "sky is falling" type of person. I approach every claim, be it an ad, a study, a reason or an excuse with skepticism. On this topic though I do know that there is a potential for risk, and that my cost to mitigate it is essentially $0 since I already owned a TC mod, and already preferred to use SS coils anyway. My only cost was just changing the setting on my device.

 

[Opinionated]

That isn't what I am suggesting at all. First I never said that vaping was more harmful than smoking. Smoking also contains formaldehyde. Nor did I say that vaping could be made 100% risk free. We also don't know what inhaling all these flavors will do but I am willing to take that risk (at least for now, I have considered trying unflavored). I am not suggesting that people don't drink the water, I am suggesting that if they don't know what is in their tap water, they might consider a filter. It is necessary? Well that depends on what you eventually find in your water. We won't have all the answers for decades. You can choose to filter it now to reduce risk, or you can choose to chance it and wait and see. If you wait and see though, and it turns out you were wrong, you may be screwed. If you filter and it turns out you were wrong, you are only out the cost of the filter. Considering nearly ALL modern regulated PV's have a TC feature already in it, there really isn't much of a cost even associated with using this particular "filter".



So you claim to know the temp of everyone's coils?!?!? So many things effect the temp of a coil, from it's mass to the wattage supplied, amount of juice in the wick, airflow, etc. I can tell you as an experience TC user, that 435F is roughly equivalent to just 17-20 watts on my Serpent SMM using a 0.5 ohm SS316 coil with the air flow mostly closed. I know people that vape this same tank well above that 20 watts, so what temp do you think they are at? I can also tell you this is a fairly cool vape. So what temp do you think people that like "warmer" vapes are at?



Everything in this section is 100% opinion, and you are entitled to it, just as much as I am entitled to mine. Again I am not trying to, nor do I think it is even possible to eliminate 100% risks, in vaping or in life. I wear a seat belt when I drive because it is relatively safer than not wearing it. It doesn't 100% reduce risk from driving though and it is not guaranteed save my life. I filter my water, partially because it tastes better, and partially to reduce (not eliminate) contaminates in my water. I vape in TC not to eliminate risks but to reduce them.

I should also like to say I am not a "sky is falling" type of person. I approach every claim, be it an ad, a study, a reason or an excuse with skepticism. On this topic though I do know that there is a potential for risk, and that my cost to mitigate it is essentially $0 since I already owned a TC mod, and already preferred to use SS coils anyway. My only cost was just changing the setting on my device.

You've wore me out. You need a bible..

I'm back to shutting up because your not listening to a single word I'm saying anyway.. not one word I've said have you read in context. It's not truth your after.

You'd make a good fire and brimstone preacher though, got to give you that.

 

[stols001]

I think what might scare me off as a new vaper would be the overabundance of information presented here, (on both sides) and with each wanting to prove their "point."

Honestly, I believe both sides have merit. I think it's reasonable to let new vapers know that temperature can matter w/r/t vaping, and to present that information in a dispassionate way, not throwing facts around willy nilly, trying to be "right."

I was interested in the TC thread, but I will say that the person who contributed most to that thread was a) fairly even-handed n his presentation of data as well as having helpful suggestions FOR vapers who may not yet be ready for TC. And it can be difficult (although it does seem to be getting easier) to get a TC capable coil for a tank and mod one may have JUST purchased. I do think it's important to talk about temperature, and the fact that TC vaping is available as an option. I know that thread got me into RTAs more quickly than I might have before. However, there were also several things I COULD and DID do right away, when it came to attempting to reduce my "relative" risk (and at this point, I believe it is relative, and to a degree still "speculative" risk. I rotated my setups when chainvaping, I added 10% DW to my vape to reduce its boiling point, etc.

Those were simple things that *I* could do, and once I got to "TC" vaping, I found it USEFUL in confirming that with the style of vape and how I rotate my setups, it is quite rare for me to enter "temp protect" mode, which did confirm for me that the ways I had chosen to "address" temperature were working. They were also a LOT simpler than trying to figure out "TC vaping" during my first few months. Vaping is a process, probably the longer someone vapes, the more they will either decide to ignore TC and vape how they like, feeling it to be enough harm reduction for them, or as they progress, they will decide to try TC vaping, love it, and adopt it.

However, HOW the information is presented DOES matter. If it is scary statistics and then just "You need to vape in TC," well, that's not very helpful to a new vaper who may be feeling overwhelmed already.

However, I also don't agree with hiding information, and I think the best way to present it to a new vaper is :"here may be some BEST PRACTICES to reduce, speculative, and on a continuum risk. HOWEVER, most new vapers don't start with TC vaping... although that may some day change. MOST vapers have STILL found health improvements by vaping in WHATEVER mode, until one feels ready/equipped for TC, and on a continuum of risk, it still remains far less than smoking, and as far as TOTAL risk, it's important to note that many if not all vapers may have started vaping without TC (sometimes for years, if a long-term vaper) and that most if not all noted health improvements. So, while TC may be a worthy goal in order to reduce risk MORE, it isn't something to feel one MUST do right away, although as a new vaper, that person certainly has the OPTION to do it, but if you are feeling overwhelmed, please note that a certain amount of non-TC vaping in the beginning is often to be expected, not something to fret about continually to the point that the person returns to vaping. However, it is an option to explore once vaping is successful, and something to consider."

I say that as, being a "new" vaper with access to that information, well some of it WAS scary and overwhelming, and if I'd been thrown a bunch of numbers about formaldehyde, some of them perhaps speculative, I would have had a harder time 1) making my non-TC vapes safer FOR me and 2) to remain vaping long enough to GET to try TC as it does require a certain amount of skill building, although replay may change that, IDK.

However, if someone shows up new with an ego style battery, the first thing I am NOT going to do is spew formaldehyde numbers at them. I will make sure they are vaping successfully and through detox, I'm not going to say, "Oh, sorry, you need to by a replay DNA mod and X rta and some wire and a coilbuilding kit, and some batteries, because-- FORMALDEHYDE!!! AGGG!!

So, in my opinion, everyone perhaps bending a little and balancing information overload against fear, and against the fact that even the persons PREACHING temperature control did not use it as their "First vape." I can almost GUARANTEE that.

So, being reasonable about the issue is probably the most important thing.

Anna

 

[Letitia]

We really need a facepalm emoji. Since we don't:

Yes we do , yours is probably more eloquent tho.

 

[ScottP]

You've wore me out. You need a bible..

I'm back to shutting up because your not listening to a single word I'm saying anyway.. not one word I've said have you read in context. It's not truth your after.

You'd make a good fire and brimstone preacher though, got to give you that.

YAY I WIN THE INTERWEBS!!

I am totally joking of course. Actually Stols is probably the real winner.

It has never and will never be my intention or goal to dissuade anyone from vaping and I wouldn't tell someone that they HAVE to use TC (or any particular mod, tank, or style of inhaling) in order to reduce risks from smoking. Vaping (as long as you aren't actually setting the cotton on fire) should always be safer than smoking and that has always been and always will be the primary message.

 

[Opinionated]

Nvm..

 

[CMD-Ky]

Dead Horse

 

[stols001]

I just want to say, I respect both of you, and I think you absolutely both want the "best" for vapers.

It's just that "best" is a moving target, and likely will continue to be so.

Also, it's sometimes useful to put oneself in a new vaper's shoes, and remember one's "approach" to vaping. Scott, for example you stated, "It was just as easy as switching modes for me." But, good, also to remember that "switching modes" on a TC capable mod with a TC capable RTA on top is not where new vapers begin, at least not many of them.

So, the information should be present, and I totally get that you BOTH are wanting to make vaping encouraging, enjoyable, and safe for all new vapers.

But, the vaping ladders is always going to exist, and too much, too soon, can actually DRIVE away a new vaper, who may well decide to adopt, or not to adopt TC vaping, say, 3 months down the line.

Anna

 

[ScottP]

I just want to say, I respect both of you, and I think you absolutely both want the "best" for vapers.

It's just that "best" is a moving target, and likely will continue to be so.

Also, it's sometimes useful to put oneself in a new vaper's shoes, and remember one's "approach" to vaping. Scott, for example you stated, "It was just as easy as switching modes for me." But, good, also to remember that "switching modes" on a TC capable mod with a TC capable RTA on top is not where new vapers begin, at least not many of them.

So, the information should be present, and I totally get that you BOTH are wanting to make vaping encouraging, enjoyable, and safe for all new vapers.

But, the vaping ladders is always going to exist, and too much, too soon, can actually DRIVE away a new vaper, who may well decide to adopt, or not to adopt TC vaping, say, 3 months down the line.

Anna

I agree with most of that, and I don't want to start a new argument, but in today's world I would bet that most new vapers start out with a SMOK kit (primarily due to prevalence in vape shops). All of which, except the sticks, have TC and if the included tank happens to be either the BB or BBB (both super common in SMOK kits) then it is TC capable (using a different brand of compatible coils). I also agree that the initial focus is keeping them off the cigarettes. They can worry about the TC choice later. The question then is how do you post info about TC on a medium such as this forum to a 2 year vaper without letting a newb see and get the same info on day 1? That is the conundrum. IMHO that is why these debates, like the one in this thread, are GOOD. It gives both sides and allows the newbs to either make their own decision OR ask more questions.

I have said it before and I'll say it again, sometimes the dumbest questions are the ones never asked.

Of course the FDA could end up banning everything that isn't a tobacco flavored pod system limited to a specific max temp/wattage rendering the whole topic moot.

 

[DPLongo22]

Dead Horse

Of course the FDA could end up banning everything that isn't a tobacco flavored pod system limited to a specific max temp/wattage rendering the whole topic moot.

The most likely scenario, if at all.

My Provis will still be cranking along.

 

[Letitia]

The most likely scenario, if at all.

I so hope you are wrong.

 

[DPLongo22]

I so hope you are wrong.

So do I.

 

[Letitia]

I am just not well suited for mech use, my evolve chips need to last as long as I do.

 

[Katdarling]

While I don't profess to have ANY idea what y'all are talking about, I'll repeat something I've said to others privately.

I always find it funny that a bunch of ex-smokers (the WORST thing we could have done to our bodies) have become a bunch of puritans now. I'm waiting for someone to issue my scarlet letter.

I can't decide on "W" (wattage), "V" (variable), or "P" (power). I don't look great in that color so it's important that I choose wisely.

Maybe I should do a contest, or a poll, or something. I'm leaning towards the "V", because most here already know that I love the "V".



I've got kinda wide shoulders too, so I'd appreciate it if the letter can be appropriately sized, proportionate to my dimensions. Just sayin'...

And I suppose you'll be wanting a new Scarlet wristband, too.

Ok, so put in the order, darlink. I'll take the "P".

 

[Katdarling]

We also don't know what inhaling all these flavors will do but I am willing to take that risk (at least for now, I have considered trying unflavored).

Scott, did I miss the turn off on the logic highway?

 

[DPLongo22]

And I suppose you'll be wanting a new Scarlet wristband, too.

Since ya mentioned it...

Ok, so put in the order, darlink. I'll take the "P".