NEW CDC STUDY OFFICIALLY DEBUNKS ‘VAPING AND FORMALDEHYDE’ MYTH

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ScottP

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I'm more on the convinced side of things that the formaldehyde studies were nothing more than BS.

The first studies done were done by anti-vapers literally burning coils and cotton in a way no one vapes..

The second were paid for by none other than Evolve saying we need temperature control.. lol.. it's not hard to predict that those they paid were going to come up with that conclusion.. it's rather a duh right there

Then we have some guy with a makeshift home lab supposedly confirming what evolve tells us.. not very scientific there..

Yeah... I quit smoking through vaping where all else failed, my health improved dramatically no temperature control involved, and then I quit vaping.. goal achieved and no health problems.

Good grief I wish these people would come off the so far junk science tc studies already and wait for some more real science to occur before speaking.

Just my two cents..

I wish it was just BS, but PG and VG (which are so similar there is literally only 1 ATOM difference between them) have been documented to break down into aldehydes at high temps DECADES before vaping was even invented. Now that is not to say that all of these studies were above board. Some of them (especially the ones you mention where they are burning coils) could have known this going in and purposefully created favorable conditions for this to occur. I will also agree that unless these studies also accounted for aldehydes already present in the air, that some of these could be tainted unintentionally. However, we also cannot just completely discount a proven chemical process just because we don't like the result.

Chemical formulas:
PG = C3H8O2
VG = C3H8O3 (note only 1 extra oxygen atom vs PG, otherwise identical)

Formaldehyde = CH2O (now look at the PG and VG and tell me you see no way for those to become this)
 

ScottP

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After reading more of this thread (after the post I quoted), I feel I should add that EVEN with some level of formaldehyde in vapor it is still going to be less carcinogic than smoking, and yes smoking also contains formaldehyde. I do NOT want to dissuade anyone from switching to vaping from smoking. I do think vapors SHOULD be fully informed about what they are actually inhaling though, so they can make their own decision for themselves. In this case temperature DOES make a difference. If you know the temp you are vaping at, then you have better control of the chemical processes that ARE occurring inside your atomizer. If you don't care about that level of control, that is 100% your choice, and I respect that.

As far as my use of the phrase "safe zone", I guess I could have said the "temperature zone of least potential aldehydes in her vape". Is that "PC" enough for you lot? :D
 

DPLongo22

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As far as my use of the phrase "safe zone", I guess I could have said the "temperature zone of least potential aldehydes in her vape". Is that "PC" enough for you lot? :D

I don't do PC ('cept the ones with keyboards).

Simply that it's a temperature you're comfortable with, wouldn't be a terrible representation. Almost anything else assumes validity to studies some can and do find questionable.

I still think that anyone truly concerned with such issues should really consider quitting, but I've said that enough times that even I'm getting bored with myself.
 

Opinionated

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I wish it was just BS, but PG and VG (which are so similar there is literally only 1 ATOM difference between them) have been documented to break down into aldehydes at high temps DECADES before vaping was even invented. Now that is not to say that all of these studies were above board. Some of them (especially the ones you mention where they are burning coils) could have known this going in and purposefully created favorable conditions for this to occur. I will also agree that unless these studies also accounted for aldehydes already present in the air, that some of these could be tainted unintentionally. However, we also cannot just completely discount a proven chemical process just because we don't like the result.

Chemical formulas:
PG = C3H8O2
VG = C3H8O3 (note only 1 extra oxygen atom vs PG, otherwise identical)

Formaldehyde = CH2O (now look at the PG and VG and tell me you see no way for those to become this)

First, not all aldehydes are dangerous or carcinogenic. Lets get that perfectly clear. Formaldehyde is considered potentially so (although not all studies agree to what extent), at certain levels and in certain combinations with other carcinogenic chemicals.

Just because these vaping - formaldehyde studies show that a molecule is being produced, in no way shows that they are produced in dangerous quantities. In order to demonstrate that, they would at least have to get their units in the same ball park as other studies. They are comparing strawberries to bowling balls atm, and trying to convince us that cubic fortnights per square inch make some kind of sense. It does not. Fortnights and square inches are entirely different units which measure entirely different things just as micrograms compare to ppm.

Also, take into consideration that anything can become dangerous in a sufficient quantity. A drink of water is good for you and necessary to sustain life, several hundred thousand gallons of water probably not so much. Oxygen seems to be good for you, but it destroys iron because its so highly corrosive.

The problem with formaldehyde, is that we don't have studies comparing vaping to what would be considered accept levels of air exposure, which is measured in ppm. in order to do that, you would have to know how many liters a microgram of formaldehyde is so you can figure out how many ppm of formaldehyde you have in however many liters of lung you have over, say, the course of an hour. All this can be computed but it takes time and work which none of these so-called scientists seem to want to take.

All that said, we also do not know if we are actually metabolizing any formaldehyde in a sufficient manner for it to be carcinogenic to us. According to the American cancer society inhaling formaldehyde at levels at a concentration of 1.9 parts per million (ppm) for 40 minutes did not increase blood levels of formaldehyde in humans.

Even workplace exposure to people who deal with large amounts of inhaled formaldehyde at work, although found to have increased rates of leukemia and nasal cancers, these same results cannot be consistently reproduced in a lab.. therefore we do not know if there are other factors involved in these cancers which must be present for formaldehyde to be cancer causing in humans consistently (something we can definitively point to).

As it is right now, we just don't know enough, and jumping up and down screaming formaldehyde just isn't helpful, ESPECIALLY to new vapers... when some real science is done that actually tells us something that relates to vaping, humans, and potential carcinogens, then perhaps we can worry. As it is right now I'm not willing to do anything but have a wait and see attitude until I see real science done and get to read those conclusions and the potentialities those create.
 
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Katdarling

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:thumbs:

Some 500 years ago, Paracelsus said that all things are poison and nothing is without poison; only the dose makes a thing not a poison.

(as a more current expression - "The dose makes the poison.")

Opinionated, you've nailed this, and THEN some.

Brava. The post of the month, year, perhaps. WELL done. Well processed, well thought and described, and well explained. I do believe you've just said what many may be (or have been) thinking, but perhaps could not extrapolate or opine (pun, yeah).

Thank you for taking the time to write this out and to share your thoughts. I'm hopeful that it will be exceedingly valuable to anyone and everyone who has the chance to read it.

Winner. Brilliant. Excellent.
 

ScottP

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First, not all aldehydes are dangerous or carcinogenic. Lets get that perfectly clear. Formaldehyde is considered potentially so (although not all studies agree to what extent), at certain levels and in certain combinations with other carcinogenic chemicals.

Just because these vaping - formaldehyde studies show that a molecule is being produced, in no way shows that they are produced in dangerous quantities. In order to demonstrate that, they would at least have to get their units in the same ball park as other studies. They are comparing strawberries to bowling balls atm, and trying to convince us that cubic fortnights per square inch make some kind of sense. It does not. Fortnights and square inches are entirely different units which measure entirely different things just as micrograms compare to ppm.

Also, take into consideration that anything can become dangerous in a sufficient quantity. A drink of water is good for you and necessary to sustain life, several hundred thousand gallons of water probably not so much. Oxygen seems to be good for you, but it destroys iron because its so highly corrosive.

The problem with formaldehyde, is that we don't have studies comparing vaping to what would be considered accept levels of air exposure, which is measured in ppm. in order to do that, you would have to know how many liters a microgram of formaldehyde is so you can figure out how many ppm of formaldehyde you have in however many liters of lung you have over, say, the course of an hour. All this can be computed but it takes time and work which none of these scientists seem to want to take.

All that said, we also do not know if we are actually metabolizing any formaldehyde in a sufficient manner for it to be carcinogenic to us. According to the American cancer society inhaling formaldehyde at levels at a concentration of 1.9 parts per million (ppm) for 40 minutes did not increase blood levels of formaldehyde in humans.

Even workplace exposure to people who deal with large amounts of inhaled formaldehyde at work, although found to have increased rates of leukemia and nasal cancers, these same results cannot be consistently reproduced in a lab.. therefore we do not know if there are other factors involved in these cancers which must be present for formaldehyde to be cancer causing in humans consistently (something we can definitively point to).

As it is right now, we just don't know enough, and jumping up and down screaming formaldehyde just isn't helpful, ESPECIALLY to new vapers... when some real science is done that actually tells us something that relates to vaping, humans, and potential carcinogens, then perhaps we can worry. As it is right now I'm not willing to do anything but have a wait and see attitude, until I see real science done and get to read those conclusions and the potentialities those create.

So just to be clear, you don't think new vapers have the right to know that vaping at too high of temps could cause them to be inhaling formaldehyde with whatever risks, may or may not be associated with that? You think we should just keep our mouths shut and not let them make their own decision? Please correct me if I am wrong, but that is how it sounds.
 
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ScottP

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Let me be perfectly clear. To ME vaping is about harm reduction. They have not been proven to be dangerous nor have they been proven to be 100% safe. I accept some level of risk to do it. That said I use cotton instead of silica wicks because I feel it is the safer choice. I use SS wire with no fear of metal "leeching" since I have been getting that from my cookware for decades. I choose to vape in TC mode at levels that reduce the potential for molecules in the juice breaking down into potentially more harmful molecules. These are MY choices based on informed decisions about POTENTIAL (not necessarily proven) risks. I fully get that not everyone will make the same choices and to be honest I don't really care. I do feel that every vaper should at least be given all the information and allowed to make their own choices. It is a 100% FACT that PG and VG DO break down into various aldehydes at higher temps. Now as you pointed out just how dangerous these are remains to be proven or disproven. It is my choice based on these facts to err on the side of caution.

It is just as wrong to hide potential risks as it is to make up fake potential risks. Just my humble opinion.
 

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So just to be clear, you don't think new vapers have the right to know that vaping at too high of temps could cause them to be inhaling formaldehyde with whatever risks, may or may not be associated with that? You think we should just keep our mouths shut and not let them make their own decision? Please correct me if I am wrong, but that is how it sounds.

New vapers have the right to know - they have the right to know the FULL truth of the matter and not only a small portion.

People need enough information to evaluate risk, not just take people's word for something which may not prove to be any kind of risk in the end.

People deserve more than junk science. They deserve real science using real scientific methods where real world risk can be evaluated.
 
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Opinionated

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Let me be perfectly clear. To ME vaping is about harm reduction. They have not been proven to be dangerous nor have they been proven to be 100% safe. I accept some level of risk to do it. That said I use cotton instead of silica wicks because I feel it is the safer choice. I use SS wire with no fear of metal "leeching" since I have been getting that from my cookware for decades. I choose to vape in TC mode at levels that reduce the potential for molecules in the juice breaking down into potentially more harmful molecules. These are MY choices based on informed decisions about POTENTIAL (not necessarily proven) risks. I fully get that not everyone will make the same choices and to be honest I don't really care. I do feel that every vaper should at least be given all the information and allowed to make their own choices. It is a 100% FACT that PG and VG DO break down into various aldehydes at higher temps. Now as you pointed out just how dangerous these are remains to be proven or disproven. It is my choice based on these facts to err on the side of caution.

It is just as wrong to hide potential risks as it is to make up fake potential risks. Just my humble opinion.

You know as a person I like you, really I do.

But what your doing with running around the forum screaming "aldehydes! TC will save you!" Is the equivalent to slapping water out of someone's hand declaring it will harm them if they drink it without having a clue if they are drinking a harmful amount or not..

It's nonsensical, and it scares people away from something that can potentially save their life - for no reason.
 

Zakillah

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All that said, we also do not know if we are actually metabolizing any formaldehyde in a sufficient manner for it to be carcinogenic to us. According to the American cancer society inhaling formaldehyde at levels at a concentration of 1.9 parts per million (ppm) for 40 minutes did not increase blood levels of formaldehyde in humans.
A good working E-Zig vapor will emit around 13ppm Formaldehyde max.
 

Opinionated

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A good working E-Zig vapor will emit around 13ppm Formaldehyde max.

This is not in the least bit helpful... from what study are you deriving this information? Where is your math?

Even the anti-vaping burn the heck out of the coil for maximum formaldehyde production study admitted that vaping a coil (don't know which coil) at a lower voltage only produced .0125 ppm at most - and that is not a ppm that can be compared to the information from the American cancer society as the ppm used in that study is based on a different measurement.

The ppm in the vaping study is a ppm of pure vapor coming off a coil, and the ppm on the ACA study is however they did their study, it may have been per cubic foot of a room, or it may have been a different measurement... the two measurements cannot be compared as is.

so to say, average is 13ppm, average to what? Seriously? Not helpful. And it certainly doesn't help us make any sort of comparison to other studies.

Im not trying to be .....y, I am just trying to be real here.
 
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ScottP

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You know as a person I like you, really I do.

But what your doing with running around the forum screaming "aldehydes! TC will save you!" Is the equivalent to slapping water out of someone's hand declaring it will harm them if they drink it without having a clue if they are drinking a harmful amount or not..

It's nonsensical, and it scares people away from something that can potentially save their life - for no reason.

First and foremost, I NEVER said anything about any specific danger, consequence or risk of inhaling aldehydes. I simply debunked your idea that PG and VG did not break down into it. The fact is that it does.

I have always respected you as well, but I feel what you are doing is telling people in Flint, MI to go ahead and drink the water. I'm not slapping the water out of their hand, I'm merely suggesting that they boil it first, just to reduce the chance of a problem. Whether they do or not is on them.

All I can say is we can agree to disagree.
 
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Zakillah

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This is not in the least bit helpful... from what study are you deriving this information? Where is your math?
The data is from the measurements I did myself at work. I am an analytical chemist and work in a lab which does smoke/vapor analysis.
IF we actually find Formaldehyde, which is not always the case, its usually in the region I mentioned.

Example and math:
~250mg of total vapor output will give ~3µg of Formaldehyde (and that's the highest we found without the coil running dry)
3µg / 250 000µg x 1000 0000 = 12 ppm

If you calculate it for total volume; the number will be smaller.
The 250mg vapor output are exactly 1L of air. So 3µg per liter equals 3mg per cubic meter; which will result in ~2,5 ppm.
 
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ppeeble

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Too many zeros in your formula....... Just sayin'

Last night i had the 'those things give you cancer' statement shouted at me by one of the great unwashed. I smiled and moved on.
I'm all for educating people when it comes to potential harms derived from heating vaping liquids but , and it's a big but (cos we all like em don't we), humans are fickle things and will take the available information and skew it to suit their world view. We do it on this forum - high fives for positive reports and boo's for negative.

Most new vapers and non vapers will get their information from social media or tabloid news and at the moment, in the UK at least, the overwhelming reports are positive. That is what the general population rely on before making a decision as to whether vaping is for them. But there will always be those people who have formed a view and will not deviate from it regardless of facts. Until social pressure makes it uncomfortable for them to cling to that view.

I seem to have gotten a bit side-tracked here.
What i wanted to say was, Most people on this forum have real world experience of vaping and know that since switching they feel better than when smoking. That should not be dismissed and is a very valid resource when determining the pros and cons of vaping. That should be the headline - not pissant test results which are detailing minute amounts of chemical 'Z' or product 'X' which, when all is said and done, are meaningless without context.
 

Opinionated

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The data is from the measurements I did myself at work. I am an analytical chemist and work in a lab which does smoke/vapor analysis.
IF we actually find Formaldehyde, which is not always the case, its usually in the region I mentioned.

Example and math:
~250mg of total vapor output will give ~3µg of Formaldehyde (and that's the highest we found without the coil running dry)
3µg / 250 000µg x 1000 0000 = 12 ppm

If you calculate it for total volume; the number will be smaller.
The 250mg vapor output are exactly 1L of air. So 3µg per liter equals 3mg per cubic meter; which will result in ~2,5 ppm.

First of all, when you said average is 13ppm, now when you show the math you've got your highest readings to be 12ppm. (Or am I just too tired)

Which is great but what is your mean?

Your highest single reading does not an average make.. it makes your highest single reading..

Under what coil conditions were those readings taken? What coil?

Were your tests done in a lab - or a makeshift lab in your basement?

Are your tests done in a manner that are repeatable by other chemists in other labs?

Have they been repeated?

By you?

By other labs?

Have your conclusions been double checked by other chemists in other labs?

Have your conclusions gone through a peer review process? (I understand what the peer review process is like but two other labs repeating what you've done can be considered as well..)

IN SHORT, You will have to forgive me, but we've have a lot of so called people say a lot of so called things none of which follow scientific method..

A chemist in his basement is not what we need, as a community. As a community we need science. We need to be able to say something definitive scientifically to the community such as:

Under these conditions we did testing on humans and found that vaping 12ppm vapor, 3, 3 second puffs every 15 minutes (or whatever average is) left x amount of formaldehyde on average in vapers blood steam and we find these levels to be x (good, bad or indifferent)

Then for something like that to be followed up with some lovely recommendations for vapors in the real world, to either alleviate harm or simply to say hey, this is nothing to worry about.

THAT is what vapors deserve - and nothing less.
 
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Opinionated

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First and foremost, I NEVER said anything about any specific danger, consequence or risk of inhaling aldehydes.

You are so right, you never told them that not all aldehydes are dangerous, you never gave them information on the truth of formaldehyde, and you aren't even telling them if they will be taking in a dangerous amount when they vape because you don't even know!

Your just jumping up and down hollering be afraid be very afriad for no reason.. your not educating because there isn't enough information available to do that!

Partial information often based on bad information in the first place is not helpful to any vaper!

people in Flint, MI - I'm not slapping the water out of their hand, I'm merely suggesting that they boil it first, just to reduce the chance of a problem. Whether they do or not is on them..

you have proven my point exactly in this one sentence Scott... lol

Do you know what happens to water full of lead when it gets boiled? The lead in the water can actually become more concentrate.. NOT at all helpful for people about to drink water with dangerous levels of lead in it..

Why would you give bad advice to anyone like that?

I'll tell you why, because you don't know any good advice to give, because you don't have enough information on the topic..

Just like vaping! Just like you don't have it in vaping!
 
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DPLongo22

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While I don't profess to have ANY idea what y'all are talking about, I'll repeat something I've said to others privately.

I always find it funny that a bunch of ex-smokers (the WORST thing we could have done to our bodies) have become a bunch of puritans now. I'm waiting for someone to issue my scarlet letter.

I can't decide on "W" (wattage), "V" (variable), or "P" (power). I don't look great in that color so it's important that I choose wisely.

Maybe I should do a contest, or a poll, or something. I'm leaning towards the "V", because most here already know that I love the "V".

:blink:

I've got kinda wide shoulders too, so I'd appreciate it if the letter can be appropriately sized, proportionate to my dimensions. Just sayin'... :cool:
 

Zakillah

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Yes, please forgive my first post; it was early, I was tired, didnt think too much and this was what I remembered.
The total mean is essentially meaningless. Too many variables. Each Coil and setup is slightly different. Makes no sense to calculate a mean when over half your readings are below the limit of quantification.

We analysed mostly very basic atties. Although I had the opportunity to test one of mine as well.
The test were done at my workplace; not at home. Its an accredited lab, which has multiple official checks a year. We´re not just a funny bunch of amateurs.
Unfortunetly; I cant just roam the lab and do whatever I want to; so no, I cant test multiple RTAs with multiple types of wires/builds on 10 different Watt settings. Believe me, I would if I could.
Also, none of our data is open to the public nor will it ever get published. We also don't do blood tests.
All I can provide here is the data we came up with; which is also consistent with other measurements that were published; barring "dry burn studies".
And honestly; this topic has been done to death and for all I care its solved. It was solved years ago. It doesn't take 50 different labs to do and validate such a trivial analysis; which frankly, it is. This is not sophisticated science.

IF your E-Zig works as intended; the amount of Aldehydes produced is very low; to the point that its mood to even discuss it much further.


3µg / 250 000µg x 1000 0000 = 12 ppm
Should be a million (1,000,000) not ten million (10,000,000)....
Oh yeah. I calculated it with 1Mil; though, so the 12ppm is still correct.
 
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