New Eissenberg study vindicates e-cigarettes

[leannebug]

<snip>
From a personal point of view, I do think there is an argument to be made that ecigarettes will eventually cause severe problems for national tax revenues. Smokers fund the country, or at least a valuable proportion of its services, and we ignore this at our peril.

You're talking about billions of dollars lost tax revenue and it it has to be found somewhere.
<snip>
Therefore it is my belief that eventually we will see ecigs being taxed in some way, and personally I have no issue with that, as I prefer to see the roads repaired and the hospitals staffed. The money has to come from somewhere.

One thing is for sure: in a few years time there will be a massive hole in state and national revenues, and to ignore that as a factor in ecigarette regulation is a mistake. If ecigarettes are allowed to be freely sold then they will be taxed - that is simply unescapable in the long run.

True. SOME taxation is needed... BUT...

I disagree with the notion that anything other than federal and state income tax, as well as state sales tax (when bought in state) should ever be paid on the sale of these devices.
.

COMPLETELY agreed. Why ecigs should be taxed, in the same horrific manner as cigarettes, is beyond me. Neither cigarette smokers NOR ecigeratte smokers should be responsible for supporting so much of the economy. Perhaps this is a good time to 'spread the wealth' (Or deficit) and make the rest of the world pay their fair share.
I pay taxes; state taxes, federal taxes, bed and breakfast taxes (tourism, no less), cigarette taxes, ad valorum taxes, etc etc... I also pay just as much for medical insurance, and am now trying to improve my health, so that I don't end up needing additional health care (because of my smoking). Why on earth would it be a good thing for me to continue paying ridiculous taxes on something I am doing to improve my health?? I am not following that line of thinking.

Taxes on fast foods, sodas, candy, potato chips, cookies, etc..

There's an idea!

Obviously you weren't sitting in a waiting room of Cleveland clinic where they are now removing all beverages with sugar. Yeah, I knew you were having a diet cola, right? I don't understand where society thinks that all of the chemical replacements/additives are a good thing, in anything, it just doesn't make sense. go figure!

Oh, you've GOT to be kidding!!? That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet.
I cannot see how drinking more chemicals is a good thing. I am a strong believer in "the more natural, the better". Real sugar, fresh fruit and vegatables, home cooked meals, etc, etc. The more processed and engineered we make our products, the less healthy we become. Ugh. I can't believe there hasn't been more backlash by the public. Is this something that was encouraged?

Where is our country going that we think smoking chemically laden cigarettes and drinking soda laced with unnatural additives is better for our body/mind/spirt???

 

[rothenbj]

Obviously you weren't sitting in a waiting room of Cleveland clinic where they are now removing all beverages with sugar. Yeah, I knew you were having a diet cola, right? I don't understand where society thinks that all of the chemical replacements/additives are a good thing, in anything, it just doesn't make sense. go figure!

"Health" organizations warn that no level of drinking cola is safe.

 

[BCB]

Quote by Rolygate: Billions of dollars in tobacco tax cannot just disappear without some sort of consequence. The consequences are that revenue departments will try to ban e-cigarettes, when they finally wake up, and/or that ecigs will be taxed in some additional way. Right now, ecigs are under the radar for Treasury departments, but they'll wake up sooner or later.

Quote by Bill Godshall: Regarding taxation, as one who has been actively involved with cigarette and tobacco product taxation and government budgeting policies/processess (at the local, state and federal levels) for the past 20 years, I don't foresee any e-cigarette taxation proposals by e-cigarette opponents at the local, state, or federal level (here in the US) unless/until the FDA losses the SE/NJOY lawsuit, unless/until the FDA promulgates and gives final approval for regulating e-cigarettes as tobacco products, and unless/until sales of e-cigarettes increase by at least another 5-10 times.

Quote by Bill Godshall: Since 1994 I've urged five different governors and 8 different legislatures in Pennsylvania to impose a reasonable tax on smokeless tobacco products and cigars. Until several years ago when Governor Rendell finally included a modest tax on Other Tobacco Products (OTP) in his budget proposal, I was repeatedly told by administrations and legislatures that OTP would generate enough tax revenue to make the fight (to enact an OTP tax) worthwhile.

WELL, LOOKS LIKE IT'S STARTED ALREADY!

Effective August 1, 2010 a new law stating that E-cigarettes must be taxed as an OTP item in the state of Minnesota.

 

[Vocalek]

WELL, LOOKS LIKE IT'S STARTED ALREADY!

Effective August 1, 2010 a new law stating that E-cigarettes must be taxed as an OTP item in the state of Minnesota.

Do you have a link to the information on this?

I'm curious how they plan to implement it, since most of the OTP taxes are based on weight of the product. It wouldn't be fair to include the weight of the hardware. If only cartridges are taxed, will they stick to the weight only of the liquid? (How much does a pack of 5 cartridges, containing a total of 2.5 ml. of liquid weigh?)

What if the liquid contains nothing that comes from tobacco (i.e., zero-nic liquid)?

 

[BCB]

I obviously don't know how to link it, because I tried to in my post but it didn't work. I got it from the thread by that title posted by Skinny yesterday at 11:16 p.m. Yvilla says the tax rate would be 70% of the wholesale price.

 

[Vocalek]

'Sokay. I found the other thread.

 

[Vchick]

"Health" organizations warn that no level of drinking cola is safe.

It isn't just in cola, it's all beverages. I would rather have in moderation the good stuff than the chemical sweetners, I get migraines from it.

 

[leannebug]

Here's the link

Tax on ecig

 

[Vchick]

Oh, you've GOT to be kidding!!? That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet.
I cannot see how drinking more chemicals is a good thing. I am a strong believer in "the more natural, the better". Real sugar, fresh fruit and vegatables, home cooked meals, etc, etc. The more processed and engineered we make our products, the less healthy we become. Ugh. I can't believe there hasn't been more backlash by the public. Is this something that was encouraged?

Where is our country going that we think smoking chemically laden cigarettes and drinking soda laced with unnatural additives is better for our body/mind/spirt???

First they banned smoking, then this, I can't see where there is even a trade off?

See the article here; http://www.cleveland.com/healthfit/index.ssf/2010/07/sugar-sweetened_food_beverages.

 

[Vocalek]

First they banned smoking, then this, I can't see where there is even a trade off?

See the article here; http://www.cleveland.com/healthfit/index.ssf/2010/07/sugar-sweetened_food_beverages.

Feel free to drink all the soda you want, provided it tastes like doggy-poo.

At least it will match the (only permissable) flavor of those legal tobacco cigarettes.

 

[Vocalek]

same here....thank goodness for 6 months of placebo effect and no cigarettes.....

Apparently some folks are researching placebo effects on smoking.

Nicotine Tob Res. 2003 Oct;5(5):695-709.
Placebo effects of tobacco smoking and other nicotine intake.

Perkins K, Sayette M, Conklin C, Caggiula A.
Department of Psychiatry, University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, Pittsburgh, PA 15213, USA. perkinska@msx.upmc.edu

Erratum in:

• Nicotine Tob Res. 2004 Jun;6(3):575.

Abstract

Nicotine intake is a necessary but insufficient factor in maintaining tobacco smoking behavior, and nonpharmacological factors associated with smoking play a key role. Some of these factors may influence smoking behavior by eliciting placebo effects, or responses related specifically to the belief that one is consuming a drug. Greater knowledge of placebo effects of smoking would improve our understanding of factors that maintain smoking behavior, thereby aiding efforts to develop treatments to counter the influence of these factors. In addition, better understanding of placebo effects from other means of nicotine intake could help determine mechanisms of the therapeutic actions of nicotine replacement therapy, perhaps enhancing its efficacy in smoking cessation. Placebo effects of smoking or other nicotine intake have received little research attention. In this review, we first discuss common terms and methods of placebo research, especially the balanced-placebo design. We then examine the limited research directly assessing placebo effects of smoking and other nicotine intake, namely studies that manipulated instructions to subjects about the drug content of an ingested substance. Finally, we examine other studies relevant to gauging the likely magnitude of placebo smoking effects. In an effort to encourage more research on these placebo effects, we pay substantial attention to future directions. Among recommendations are testing the utility of the balanced-placebo design and other rigorously controlled designs, and including multiple measures of placebo effects in addition to self-report. Future research also should explore the moderating influences of the environmental context and of individual difference factors on placebo effects of smoking and other nicotine intake.

Placebo effects of tobacco smoking and other nicot... [Nicotine Tob Res. 2003] - PubMed result

 

[rothenbj]

Elaine, good find and it really fits into my three headed monster theory of smoking. There's the nicotine, which for so many years was used as the reason for having a smoke. "I'm going out for a smoke, I'm having a nicotine fit". Nicotine has been declared as the reason people smoke and I think for some that is the case. However, the second head and the one this study appears to be looking for is the habit portion. They call it placebo effect and are probably approaching it from the wrong direction. To me it reads as if they're looking to convince smokers that they're getting more nicotine from some form of pharma type product.

Now, if they worked with an E-cig pro who could put together non-nicotine liquid that would generate plenty of vapor and a throat hit, now you'd have the perfect placebo experiment. I think you'd get a lot of very happy ex-smokers.

Now you need to deal with those with other issues- you and I being in different classes. You, from everything I have read, need the nic for part of your abstinence issues. Could that be supplied some other way, outside the PV? Perhaps, if you had to. My only question is why have to re-invent the wheel.

Then there is the third head which are those that need the other tobacco alkaloids such as myself. Swedish snus works for me and I'd love to try some stonewalls to get a feel for what they do. I still love to vape on occasion, but with the snus I have no reason to vape other than the hand to mouth habit (plus the flavors are just so yummy).

I'm generally extremely low on nic in E-liquid, but I do get it from snus. I'd love to find some zero nic snus and give that a try, but I don't think they make that animal. Plus, from a health perspective, I'm not sure I want to be nic free.

Which brings me to a 2006 CDC chart that I want to open a thread on and get some input to see if others get the same feelings I get from it. I haven't done so yet because I think that would have come from the 2008 CDC reporting. I've been trying to find the same data in the 2009 report but thus far haven't found it, so I may just post what I have and open it up for discussion. Interesting information though. Enough rambling.

 

[CartHeadMod]

Apparently some folks are researching placebo effects on smoking.

well here's an interesting thought for them to consider....I am currently vaping at 6mg.....at this weekend's Michigan Vape Fest we were all trying each other's juices.....tasted a lot of higher nicotine juice and after a couple of hours there was no doubt I was experiencing a "placebo" high......

 

[leannebug]

Oh, I easily get the jitters after vaping 22mg, for just a short while. Guess it's all in my head.

BUT>>> I can't find that article. The link didn't work. To the Cleveland paper. Anyone care to re-cap? Thanks.

 

[DC2]

well here's an interesting thought for them to consider....I am currently vaping at 6mg.....at this weekend's Michigan Vape Fest we were all trying each other's juices.....tasted a lot of higher nicotine juice and after a couple of hours there was no doubt I was experiencing a "placebo" high......

I remember a long time ago when MyFreedomSmokes was selling 3ml samplers and I got about 15 different flavors all at once. Of course, I had to try every single one right away, so I was really chain vaping one flavor after another. But I had to stop eventually, because I got a bit of a placebo headache and my stomach felt a little placebo nauseous.

 

[TropicalBob]

Boy, I wish we could all see the wisdom of Rolygate's sarcasm. We are using Chinese novelties designed to mimic cigarettes and amuse smokers. That's it. No further claims. No quit-smoking or health stuff that must proved (and never can be). Not even a claim of nicotine delivery. That's where the trouble begins. No delivery. No physiological reaction. No drug! No drug device!

These work because habit dominates many smokers. They don't smoke for pleasure, or even to satisfy need. They're habitual smokers. E-smoking replaces habit. But our devices do NOT work for others, those with hard-wired brains, where nicotine and MAOIs are essential for them to feel normal. E-smoking does not provide those. These e-smokers cannot be satisfied by e-smoking alone.

I love my novelty items. I don't want to see them banned. And I know that the FDA doesn't attack novelty items, only drug delivery devices and, now, tobacco. Think before you write: Every "overdose" story is further fodder for our enemies and the FDA. Some accounts are laughable, too, unless the same people get drunk when told water has vodka in it.

 

[yvilla]

Some accounts are laughable, too, unless the same people get drunk when told water has vodka in it.

Absolutely TBob!

 

[rothenbj]

Boy, I wish we could all see the wisdom of Rolygate's sarcasm. We are using Chinese novelties designed to mimic cigarettes and amuse smokers. That's it. No further claims. No quit-smoking or health stuff that must proved (and never can be). Not even a claim of nicotine delivery. That's where the trouble begins. No delivery. No physiological reaction. No drug! No drug device!

These work because habit dominates many smokers. They don't smoke for pleasure, or even to satisfy need. They're habitual smokers. E-smoking replaces habit. But our devices do NOT work for others, those with hard-wired brains, where nicotine and MAOIs are essential for them to feel normal. E-smoking does not provide those. These e-smokers cannot be satisfied by e-smoking alone.

I love my novelty items. I don't want to see them banned. And I know that the FDA doesn't attack novelty items, only drug delivery devices and, now, tobacco. Think before you write: Every "overdose" story is further fodder for our enemies and the FDA. Some accounts are laughable, too, unless the same people get drunk when told water has vodka in it.

Absolutely TB. I'll sometimes walk out without my PV for the day, get halfway to where I'm headed and go "aw shoot", then figure "oh well". However, I alway make sure my travel pack of snus is in my pocket.

I normally have four or five different flavors and strengths packed and choose based on mood. Never changed brands as a smoker. But it still is nice to stop in a bar, order a scotch and drip one of the three liquids I carry.

Just hit me, OTP usage is so much more entertaining than smoking.

 

[billo]

You can't compare cigarettes and vaping on an "equal puff" basis because vapors tend to take a lot more puffs in a given time. I know I do.

So, this greatly increases the nicotine, and the "per puff" results are sort of meaningless.

Also, they tested 16 mg and I vape 36 mg. Again, over twice the nicotine.

The exact e-cigarette could also make a big difference. Put a LR atty on and I'll bet everything goes up.

Yes, one puff on a whimpy-brand high-resistance e-cig at 16 mg gives much less nicotine than one puff on a real cigarette. So what ?