Nic salts vs normal nic juice
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Salts are literally nic salts. They take an acid and mix it with the nic which is a base, and a salt is created. Mixing wise they’re identical. A salt acts just like freebase nic. The only difference is you can vary the throat hit.
Absolutely no reason at all.
The only use salts have imho is with particularly anemic MTL systems that can’t produce enough vapor to create a satisfying drag without having so much nic in them that you wind up hacking. Salts can allow a higher mg/ml of nic for a given throat hit.
That solves thst then. I'll stick with the normal stuff.
There is alot more than that to the story. Do some proper research. This site has become very loose on correct information than it was early on.
IIRC the way it went last time is you were referring to the JUUL research which only applies to their patented process that no one else can use anyway. afaik JUUL doesn’t sell bottled juice at all. Every salt juice not in a JUUL is by definition therefore using a different acid than what JUUL uses.
Or is it that you are saying that when you combine an acid and a base you don’t get a salt?
This could of course be not true. I could be horribly wrong. If so I’d very much like to know.
Hey @Vapntime care to share your knowledge, instead of just saying to do a search.
What I believe I know about nic salts, they are made by adding various acids to freebase nic, namely malic., citric or benzoic acid. I have read threads of members doing DIY nicsalts at home with citric acid.
What else I know: SOME claims of more bioavailability although not really substantiated. More stable in storage (somewhat substantiated.) Can be used IN ANY DEVICE at the CORRECT level, I have been DIY with nic salts as there is less of a throat hit (in most) nic salt juices. You can go sky high but you don't have to. Perhaps a slightly different taste, to some.
Manufacturers are PUSHING nic salt in pods because it works for the battery and the pod and vapers tend to vape more like a cigarette and a pod will last about a day and BY NO means ALL pod systems either.
IDK tell me where I'm wrong.
Anna
What I believe I know about nic salts, they are made by adding various acids to freebase nic, namely malic., citric or benzoic acid. I have read threads of members doing DIY nicsalts at home with citric acid.
What else I know: SOME claims of more bioavailability although not really substantiated. More stable in storage (somewhat substantiated.) Can be used IN ANY DEVICE at the CORRECT level, I have been DIY with nic salts as there is less of a throat hit (in most) nic salt juices. You can go sky high but you don't have to. Perhaps a slightly different taste, to some.
Manufacturers are PUSHING nic salt in pods because it works for the battery and the pod and vapers tend to vape more like a cigarette and a pod will last about a day and BY NO means ALL pod systems either.
IDK tell me where I'm wrong.
Anna
Ok please excuse my frustration on this topic. This thread contains the info and frustrations lol. Read the whole thread, that is important and pay particular attention to Kurt the chemists quoted posts. 
Should I switch to nic salts
Should I switch to nic salts
I found this on the net its a good rundown on nicotine salts and is in line with the information hashed out in the above listed thread
"
Nicotine salts are simply when the alkali free base nicotine is combined with an acid to produce an ionic salt. Common acids used are citric, malic, tartaric (all food type additives). Salts are much more stable than the nicotine molecule - so for example nicotine wants to react with oxygen and this will degrade the product, however the salt is not as readily able to react because those bonds are already being used. Using salts may be key to ensuring high quality product for consumers in the future, removing issues around long supply chains and manufacture/warehousing requirements.
The amount of nicotine is not changed in a salt, but the molecular weight of a nicotine salt is higher. For example when nicotine(molecular weight 162) is combined with tartaric acid (molecular weight 150) at that exact ratio, you get a larger salt molecule nicotine tartrate (molecular weight 312). This means that when you create the salt only about half (52%) is the active compound - nicotine.
This means that when you see (for example) “50mg/ml nicotine salts” the nicotine is only 26mg/ml. This might have serious implications in jurisdictions where nicotine content is limited but makes no distinction between freebase and nicotine salts. So, for example we get a situation in the EU under the TPD where such devices can not be sold and they would not be effective anyway - 20mg/ml (TDP limit) of this type of nic salt is really only 10.4mg/ml of nicotine - less than half of what the Juul is supposed to use to be effective.
There’s also a factor in how the body “sees” nicotine salts compared to freebase nicotine. The nicotine alkaloid (freebase) is more readily absorbed in the linings of the mouth, throat and nose. This is one reason why nicotine is not so effective for lung inhalation - I recommend nose exhalation, rather like using a pipe, where it becomes *very* effective ;-)
Salted nicotine is more neutral in pH however, and is more effectively absorbed in the lungs. This may be one reason why the Juul device is recommended as being closer to the smoking experience if someone needs that to effectively switch to vaping. (It’s not the whole story though, as I’ll explain)
This is also what the tobacco companies are doing by treating tobacco with ammonia chemistry by the way - changing the pH of the molecule to make absorption in the lungs much faster. That’s the “dirty trick” that we didn’t really find out about until the late 90’s.
The other thing with nicotine salts is that because it is more pH neutral the experience is less harsh at high concentrations. While it’s not limited to high concentration use it can make the experience at these levels much more pleasant (eg Juul - 50mg/ml nic salts, but 26mg/ml nicotine).
I think the effectiveness of the Juul devices is more to do with the high concentration of active ingredient and the good user experience rather than the method of absorption however. High concentrations of freebase are also very effective, but the experience may be different - vapers tend to freak out if you talk about such high concentrations of nicotine, but accept without question the Juul type concentrations of salts. Juul were smart - they never made a big thing about the nic content in their device, and they only sell ONE concentration - very high on a very low power device.
DIYers have been doing this for some time as well. Adding small amounts of acid (usually citric or malic) can modify a flavour, but it can also make the vape much smoother as some of the nicotine is converted to a salt as well. Presumably if you want nic salt without so much flavour modification you would add the acid to the nicotine solution first and let it react, then add that to your e-liquid.
To answer the last part of your question, all of these technologies have been around for some time (a few years). The main technical developments are in delivery methods rather than in the e-liquid themselves. As I said, the difference between 26mg/ml nicotine and 50mg/ml nicotine salts probably isn’t that much really. There is much more difference between using low power mouth to lung devices and high power direct lung devices.
Probably the key thing for smokers wanting to switch to vaping to understand is that mouth to lung devices are much more similar to the smoking experience (tight draw, less vapour) but need much higher concentrations of nicotine in the liquid to deliver the same amount - beyond the TPD limit for sure. After that, the flavour experience and the “throat hit” become key characteristics in being more like a cigarette, or pipe, or cigar etc.
Once you know all this, you’ll see that the TPD limit of 20mg/ml nicotine doesn’t actually achieve much except reduce the effectiveness of the products most useful to smokers wanting to switch to vaping. To a very large extent the industry has done a similar thing by emphasising the use of high power devices with low concentrations of nicotine. Many brands of liquid are impossible to get at over 6mg/ml of nicotine. Is it any wonder that many smokers find vaping to be ineffective"?
"
Nicotine salts are simply when the alkali free base nicotine is combined with an acid to produce an ionic salt. Common acids used are citric, malic, tartaric (all food type additives). Salts are much more stable than the nicotine molecule - so for example nicotine wants to react with oxygen and this will degrade the product, however the salt is not as readily able to react because those bonds are already being used. Using salts may be key to ensuring high quality product for consumers in the future, removing issues around long supply chains and manufacture/warehousing requirements.
The amount of nicotine is not changed in a salt, but the molecular weight of a nicotine salt is higher. For example when nicotine(molecular weight 162) is combined with tartaric acid (molecular weight 150) at that exact ratio, you get a larger salt molecule nicotine tartrate (molecular weight 312). This means that when you create the salt only about half (52%) is the active compound - nicotine.
This means that when you see (for example) “50mg/ml nicotine salts” the nicotine is only 26mg/ml. This might have serious implications in jurisdictions where nicotine content is limited but makes no distinction between freebase and nicotine salts. So, for example we get a situation in the EU under the TPD where such devices can not be sold and they would not be effective anyway - 20mg/ml (TDP limit) of this type of nic salt is really only 10.4mg/ml of nicotine - less than half of what the Juul is supposed to use to be effective.
There’s also a factor in how the body “sees” nicotine salts compared to freebase nicotine. The nicotine alkaloid (freebase) is more readily absorbed in the linings of the mouth, throat and nose. This is one reason why nicotine is not so effective for lung inhalation - I recommend nose exhalation, rather like using a pipe, where it becomes *very* effective ;-)
Salted nicotine is more neutral in pH however, and is more effectively absorbed in the lungs. This may be one reason why the Juul device is recommended as being closer to the smoking experience if someone needs that to effectively switch to vaping. (It’s not the whole story though, as I’ll explain)
This is also what the tobacco companies are doing by treating tobacco with ammonia chemistry by the way - changing the pH of the molecule to make absorption in the lungs much faster. That’s the “dirty trick” that we didn’t really find out about until the late 90’s.
The other thing with nicotine salts is that because it is more pH neutral the experience is less harsh at high concentrations. While it’s not limited to high concentration use it can make the experience at these levels much more pleasant (eg Juul - 50mg/ml nic salts, but 26mg/ml nicotine).
I think the effectiveness of the Juul devices is more to do with the high concentration of active ingredient and the good user experience rather than the method of absorption however. High concentrations of freebase are also very effective, but the experience may be different - vapers tend to freak out if you talk about such high concentrations of nicotine, but accept without question the Juul type concentrations of salts. Juul were smart - they never made a big thing about the nic content in their device, and they only sell ONE concentration - very high on a very low power device.
DIYers have been doing this for some time as well. Adding small amounts of acid (usually citric or malic) can modify a flavour, but it can also make the vape much smoother as some of the nicotine is converted to a salt as well. Presumably if you want nic salt without so much flavour modification you would add the acid to the nicotine solution first and let it react, then add that to your e-liquid.
To answer the last part of your question, all of these technologies have been around for some time (a few years). The main technical developments are in delivery methods rather than in the e-liquid themselves. As I said, the difference between 26mg/ml nicotine and 50mg/ml nicotine salts probably isn’t that much really. There is much more difference between using low power mouth to lung devices and high power direct lung devices.
Probably the key thing for smokers wanting to switch to vaping to understand is that mouth to lung devices are much more similar to the smoking experience (tight draw, less vapour) but need much higher concentrations of nicotine in the liquid to deliver the same amount - beyond the TPD limit for sure. After that, the flavour experience and the “throat hit” become key characteristics in being more like a cigarette, or pipe, or cigar etc.
Once you know all this, you’ll see that the TPD limit of 20mg/ml nicotine doesn’t actually achieve much except reduce the effectiveness of the products most useful to smokers wanting to switch to vaping. To a very large extent the industry has done a similar thing by emphasising the use of high power devices with low concentrations of nicotine. Many brands of liquid are impossible to get at over 6mg/ml of nicotine. Is it any wonder that many smokers find vaping to be ineffective"?
Ok. I think I may be getting your point.
It seems to me we are approaching the issue from different conceptual ends.
I propose to introduce the term protinated nicotine.
An ionic salt is created when the base component become protinated. All nicotine salts are protinated nicotine. Protinated nicotine behaves somewhat differently than non protinated nicotine.
The end I am coming from is that any protinated nicotine is also a fundamentally different compound and there are many different kinds which are likely to behave similarly, but unlikely to behave identically.
The JUUL patent:
CA2909967A1 - Nicotine salt formulations for aerosol devices and methods thereof - Google Patents
Looking at this one public version of the JUUL patent, they attempt to patent at least 18 different nicotine salts. Possibly actually more. Patent law is kind of ridiculous and is all about hiding important bits in various ways to keep them from being struck down. The gigantically long document I linked could very possibly be only a partial.
All of these are different chemicals even though they are all “nicotine salts” As such they each may have subtly different and varied effects on the body even if all those effects are similar.
Each one is effectively a different designer drug and has a different molecular weight.
This DOES make mg/ml difficult. It doesn’t make percentages any less bad though. The key thing may be that if you ignore the weight of the companion acid in the salt and look at only the weight of the protinated nicotine, a better, if still less accurate picture can be viewed.
Perhaps my error is my assumption that since this is the only even slightly effective way to compare the various molecules to each other it was already being done.
It also says things about the use of flavorings in general and gives a certain basis to the mystery of steeping.
Flavorings contain many different chemicals some of which are likely various acids. Often obsure and quite large ones. Steeping a juice may not just be a mixing. It may be an action of reacting various salts into existence within the juice.
I just searched and found it -- It is an answer on quora by a vaper ... doesn't have any further info or citations.
https://www.quora.com/What-are-e-sa...uplicate-the-enjoyment-many-feel-from-smoking
Gah. I should have done that before I replied. Thank you
Argh. The answerer is listed by a stupendously common name and profession listed is former certified welder. He answers many hundreds of questions though.
So the quality of the information is “who knows?”
I hate that.
Ok. Read it. All 5 pages full. There so far as I can find no reference at all to a “Kurt the chemist” in the entire thread. This annoyed me greatly.Ok please excuse my frustration on this topic. This thread contains the info and frustrations lol. Read the whole thread, that is important and pay particular attention to Kurt the chemists quoted posts.
Should I switch to nic salts
Perhaps that was the intent. If so, bravo.
Furthermore the consensus seems to have been that your assertions about how people are measuring nicotine content were wrong. Kind of like in this thread.
You went for unsupported arrogance as a defense then too. Not a good look on anyone.
I’m not convinced you are completely wrong though. Yet. I’m still reading the no less than 10 links that got dropped in that thread.
Are there games being played on the subject of freebase nicotine vs protonated nicotine compounds? Clearly.
Is the body of publicly available research on the effects of the myriad of protonated nicotine compounds drastically lacking in completeness? Yes.
Is JUUL one of the companies playing these games? Also yes.
This whole experience has left me even more suspicious of protonated nicotine products than I even was before, but also left me suspicious of flavors and steeping in general. Protonated nicotine just happens apparently.
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Like I said read Kurt the chemist quoted posts in the thread they are within Katya posts. The info I put in this thread only pertains from what was established by Kurt the chemists quoted posts. But anyway I try to help and then I get sacked upon because I try to make it easier for you to understand by finding statements which put it more into layman's terms. Do you even know who Kurt the chemist is to ECF and vaping in general. Look the chemistry is clear but the rate of absorption will be different due to various salts and human factors. Thanks for wasting my time bombastinator with childish crap because you can't even read properly.
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Please read Kurt's post above for scientific explanation.
In practice, well, if you're happy with your setup and your freebase, there's really no need to change to salts. But if you're still struggling with withdrawal symptoms, salts may be helpful. You'll get, hopefully, faster absorption via lungs, more like cigarette smoke, and you'll be able to increase your nicotine uptake with lower wattages and less vapor.
That said, everything in vaping is subjective--your nicotine tolerance, need, vaping style. Give it a try if you're curious--that's the only way to know for sure. Just make sure to lower your wattage for high nic salts--or use 3 or 6 mg/ml for high wattage, DTL vaping.
And the amount of vapor generated by your device. Here's a nice tidbit about Juul, possibly, going for more vapor and less nic.
Juul’s New Product: Less Nicotine, More Intense Vapor
And the amount of vapor generated by your device. Here's a nice tidbit about Juul, possibly, going for more vapor and less nic.
Juul’s New Product: Less Nicotine, More Intense Vapor
That is an interesting piece. A bit of everything in there...
Here's a nice tidbit about Juul, possibly, going for more vapor and less nic.
Juul’s New Product: Less Nicotine, More Intense Vapor
"The San Francisco-based Juul, which began selling its vaping device by the same name in 2015, has now captured more than 70 percent of the e-cigarette market share in the United States."
Interestingly...Juul is the only e-cig that I routinely hear advertised on the radio...
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