Nicotine and Cancer Linked? Links Included

[dragonladee]

Nothing in those studies gave me cause for concern enough to change my opinion about the safety of vaping.

I personally believe that whatever your stance on any subject, you can google up a study to support it. Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together can do that on their own anyway and just because it is found here doesn't mean a strike against vaping.

Even if someone WERE yelling fire over a small study that raises a few eyebrows, it doesn't help the cause to just automatically try to shut out the opinions and concerns of others. That does not prove that e-cigs are safe and they are wrong-in the end it will only make newcomers wonder whether they actually are safe or this site is just well censored via bullying. I think it is natural (and I'll even say smart) to have curiosity, concerns, and reservations about this new habit.

Debate is still debate if you are civil and reasonable and he who yells the loudest or gets angriest does not necessarily win. We are all entitled to our opinions Here's mine.

Love my nicotine. I was getting it before anyway, just in much higher doses and also with a buttload of other chemicals that are without a doubt carcinogenic. I am willing to concede that this very small, very limited study showed that existing tumors are "listening" to nicotine and possibly reacting by growing more quickly-that rate of increase is not mentioned and could be miniscule for all we know. This has also been found to be a possibility in other things we use daily like caffeine and artificial sweeteners. These articles don't even begin to suggest that nicotine causes cancer, and frankly I did not see it suggested anywhere that the subjects were limited to nicotine exposure WITHOUT the presence of tobacco anyway:
"Furthermore, Linnoila writes, “Better understanding of the molecular mechanisms of the cholinergic pathways will lead to more opportunities for intervention and prevention of tobacco toxicity.”

That statement makes me think that the women in the study were likely smokers, not people exclusively using e-liquid, patches, or gum. How can we say that nicotine is the root cause of a cell mutation when nicotine is not being isolated in the study? There is no accountability in these statements for variations in general health, exposure to other toxins, age, or genetics-the pool of 276 patients were all from Taiwan where even these folks admit that the incidence of breast cancer and rate of tumor growth are markedly different than the rest of the world outside of any other factors.

 

[JW50]

www.data-yard.net
Circulation -- Abstracts: Cohen et al. 104 (7): 773
www.data-yard.net

How about we discuss the benefits of nicotine????
DO you want to go here?

I agree. There are some benefits of nicotine. Lord, I wouldn't have smoked on those cigs if there was nothing to it. Maybe it was mind, maybe it was body, maybe some of both. But there was something to it. Should I say - no nic please. Perhaps. But, I for one am not persuaded at this point that the possible negatives that nic may cause or do to me out weigh the positives that I perceive that nic gives to me.

My suspicion is that we all have run across naysayers in life. In some cases we might say - nay makes some sense here. In other cases we may say, nay makes some sense but I prefer to do nay anyway. In the case at hand, I find the nays unconvincing as to impact on my health. So, in spite of the nays - thank you very much for the info - I'll keep on doing what I've been doing. If you have something more convincing - I will look at it - and then decide what is best for me. At this point, what I think is best for me is to avoid those cigs - and to use e-cigs if that gives me the means to avoid the cigs. Maybe not the perfect solution - but better than the alternative. (IMHO)

 

[Anima]

I'm a little confused. OK to vape (presumably with nic) until one has cancer - then quit? Presume it is true - nicotine both causes cancer and promotes the growth of cancer if one has it.

The articles don't say that nicotine causes cancer, only that it can make existing cancer spread more quickly. This is an important distinction.

If you are diagnosed with cancer, by all means vape away. Given this information, I would make a different choice.

ETA: I think that one of the articles did mention causing cancer, but linked it to smoking, not nicotine.

 

[JW50]

The articles don't say that nicotine causes cancer, only that it can make existing cancer spread more quickly. This is an important distinction.

If you are diagnosed with cancer, by all means, vape away. Given this information, I would make a different choice.

ETA: I think that one of the articles did mention causing cancer, but linked it to smoking, not nicotine.

I think what first report suggested was that nicotine caused cancer. An extract:

When nicotine binds to the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor (nAchR), it is known to promote smoking addiction and may also directly promote the development of breast cancer, according to a study published online august 23 in The Journal of the National Cancer Institute.

I think what it is saying is nicotine promotes smoking addiction and it (meaning nic) may also promote cancer development. Isn't saying that smoking promotes the cancer development. (IMO)

 

[nomadman]

www.data-yard.net
Circulation -- Abstracts: Cohen et al. 104 (7): 773
www.data-yard.net

How about we discuss the benefits of nicotine????

DO you want to go here?

BTW, a well educated person will gather all research, sort for relevancy, assess the AUDIENCE TO WHICH IT IS PRESENTED, and proceed accordingly.

This is the forum for health and safety, and several others agree that it is important to be aware of studies likes these.

A well educated person knows better that to yell at other people, even when they have a different opinion, or choose to refute findings.

How to be polite while you're online (practicing good netiquette) – Simple Help

If you feel the need to discuss the benefits of nicotine then I suggest you start a thread with that topic. Lots of things have benefits and drawback. It is good to be well informed of both.

BTW thanks for the like in you previous post, it reaffirms some of the findings I have posted .

 

[nomadman]

I agree. There are some benefits of nicotine. Lord, I wouldn't have smoked on those cigs if there was nothing to it. Maybe it was mind, maybe it was body, maybe some of both. But there was something to it. Should I say - no nic please. Perhaps. But, I for one am not persuaded at this point that the possible negatives that nic may cause or do to me out weigh the positives that I perceive that nic gives to me.

My suspicion is that we all have run across naysayers in life. In some cases we might say - nay makes some sense here. In other cases we may say, nay makes some sense but I prefer to do nay anyway. In the case at hand, I find the nays unconvincing as to impact on my health. So, in spite of the nays - thank you very much for the info - I'll keep on doing what I've been doing. If you have something more convincing - I will look at it - and then decide what is best for me. At this point, what I think is best for me is to avoid those cigs - and to use e-cigs if that gives me the means to avoid the cigs. Maybe not the perfect solution - but better than the alternative. (IMHO)

Thank you for your eloquent response. It is all about what is right for you. I have not once told anyone to stop vaping. What you do with your body is a personal choice. In fact, I am vaping my new cherry cheesecake eLiquid right now

 

[Addicted2Vap]

Nicotine occurs naturally in certain species of vegetables. I guess this means we better stay clear of tomatoes and eggplants. /sarcasm

 

[mrjaguar]

Nicotine occurs naturally in certain species of vegetables. I guess this means we better stay clear of tomatoes and eggplants. /sarcasm

and Peanut Butter /extended_sarcasm

 

[Hiryu]

Well, of course. Peanut butter is just about the most disgusting substance known to humanity. /not_being_sarcastic_pb_sucks

Nicotine does occur naturally, but the amounts found in vegetables are very, very low. Specially compared to all forms of smoking and smoke-free recreational nicotine use.

With all this said, I can be completely honest in saying that - other than allergy related concerns - I am not very worried about the overall harmfulness or toxicity of PG, VG or nicotine in the doses used for vaping. I do have concerns, but they are mostly centered around the safety of inhaling the flavorings, which as far as I know, has very little research behind it and it's the single most 'mystery meat' kind of component in the juice since a lot of manufacturers use different concentrates with widely different chemicals.

Also, the filler and wicking materials are things that should be looked at, in my opinion.

And again, before anybody flames me, I am not arguing e-cigs are over a thousand times less harmful than analogs. Nobody here has argued or questioned that idea, but there is a very valid interest and concern over what actually happens (or does NOT happen) to our physiology as a direct result from vaping.

This is a new technology and there are still many unknowns, mysteries, misconceptions and speculation over long term effects, short term effects and/or the lack of either. The data simply is not there. In the meantime, any study and result we get can help us piece this puzzle together.

No matter what you think you know, the golden rule of real science is that any given axiom is never an unquestionable paradigm. Science is always in a constant state of discovery, amendment and self-correction.

Every time someone is attacked for bringing any form of evidence that may contradict a group's accepted beliefs, it is a disservice to truth, the individuals involved and their community as a whole.

 

[emus]

Well, of course. Peanut butter is just about the most disgusting substance known to humanity. /not_being_sarcastic_pb_sucks

Nicotine does occur naturally, but the amounts found in vegetables are very, very low. Specially compared to all forms of smoking and smoke-free recreational nicotine use.

With all this said, I can be completely honest in saying that - other than allergy related concerns - I am not very worried about the overall harmfulness or toxicity of PG, VG or nicotine in the doses used for vaping. I do have concerns, but they are mostly centered around the safety of inhaling the flavorings, which as far as I know, has very little research behind it and it's the single most 'mystery meat' kind of component in the juice since a lot of manufacturers use different concentrates with widely different chemicals.

Also, the filler and wicking materials are things that should be looked at, in my opinion.

And again, before anybody flames me, I am not arguing e-cigs are over a thousand times less harmful than analogs. Nobody here has argued or questioned that idea, but there is a very valid interest and concern over what actually happens (or does NOT happen) to our physiology as a direct result from vaping.

This is a new technology and there are still many unknowns, mysteries, misconceptions and speculation over long term effects, short term effects and/or the lack of either. The data simply is not there. In the meantime, any study and result we get can help us piece this puzzle together.

No matter what you think you know, the golden rule of real science is that any given axiom is never an unquestionable paradigm. Science is always in a constant state of discovery, amendment and self-correction.

Every time someone is attacked for bringing any form of evidence that may contradict a group's accepted beliefs, it is a disservice to truth, the individuals involved and their community as a whole.

I almost concur.

PB is the greatest paste on earth.

I'm not worried about PG or VG.

Somewhat concerned about nic and foods I eat.

Somewhat concerned about toxic metals and plastics that may or may not be present?

Most concerned about vaping flavorings.

 

[Pamdane]

There is a marked difference between yelling at someone and stressing relevant information. Perhaps putting it in bold faced letters would have been more appropriate, but your ignorance of information gleaned and promptly ignored astounds me. I respectfully and regretfully have added your posts posts to my "ignore poster" list. Not because I wish to remain ignorant of information, but because what you post is skewed, and you refuse to post alternative information available. You appear to have a narcissistic need for attention. As for your recommendation to post alternative information, had you been observant, and followed the advise given in my post to research first, you would have found such a post dated and timed prior to your statement. Hence my factually based opinion of your basic needs. Best wishes in your scare tactics. I'm not interested in feeding those I perceive to be intellectual terrorists.

 

[illillillillilli]

I guess if some one was going to post links from a medical journal about watching too much Yo Gabba Gabba can cause cancer of the ears, someone's gonna believe it. There are people out there who search themselves sick. Mind over matter.
I took a behavioral statistics class one time and the most memorable line the prof gave was, "Stats may not lie, but researchers do." Controlling variables to perform the desired result. Don't take every research study out there for face value because it could only be a half truth to persuade the reader to think a certain way.

 

[Uncle Willie]

I think you all who went on to attack Nomad should be ashamed of yourselves.

So what if he's posted some concerns about e-cigs? Is not like he's there simply screaming that the sky is falling, he has been posting research and data, and if anyone sees something wrong with that, then you have issues beyond help.

Yes, yes. We all love our e-cigs, but we cannot go on a protectionist crusade whenever someone comes and provides any information that may or may not threaten your perceived status quo. The attacks Nomad has been the target of are NOT warranted or deserved, and yes, I have read his posts.

Debate and discourse should not be discouraged, specially when skepticism is involved. Going around touting our e-cigs as a perfectly safe and even health-improving device would be naive and a certain way to destroy our credibility with non-vapers - most of all, the antis. We know it is safer than smoking for sure, yes, but the fact of the matter is, we DO NOT KNOW IF IT'S SAFE.

Safer than smoking does not equal innocuous, and I think ostracizing ANYONE for providing any information that could help us figure out what harm, if any, e-cigs do is childish, immature, self deluded and a disservice to vapers as a whole.

How is this attitude different to quit-or-die forums flaming anyone who comes in touting the wonders of PV's? If you want to debate him, then prove him wrong. Show you research, your numbers and your scientific studies to help him see the other side of the coin, but DO NOT flame him or hypocritically call him a troll when he is not being one.

What kind of place is this? Everyone talking about what a great community this is and what a lovely bunch of people who treat everyone like family this is, but is it really?

Or is it that people will be nice to you only as long as you play the part of e-cig crusader and unyielding supporter?

Are we only a family as long as nobody rocks the boat and says anything against the almighty PV?

Just to reiterate.

You should be ashamed.

Well said and worth bumping ..

 

[gvil]

Second that, whenever someone posts anything that could be harmful and remotely linked to ecigs people seem to want to ridicule him in every way possible and I really dont get why? Is information bad?
"What kind of place is this? Everyone talking about what a great community this is and what a lovely bunch of people who treat everyone like family this is, but is it really?"
It seems to be at a glance but that only seem to be true when its positive, as soon as its negative people seem to want to defend the entire buisness and pretty harsh aswell. If it is just bs that the op is posting why not just link to something other to show that its not true or not that bad atleast? This part of the forum is for health matters so shouldnt a person worried for his safety be able to post his concerns?

 

[Anima]

... whenever someone posts anything that could be harmful and remotely linked to ecigs people seem to want to ridicule him in every way possible and I really dont get why? Is information bad?

I don't get it either. I think debate and examining the evidence is good, and I love it when someone can provide information to assuage our concerns, but canards like "everything causes cancer" - always intended to ridicule - don't fall into that category, and neither does the knee-jerk "It's better than smoking," followed by a testimonial.

Back to the topic, I am happy to know that the possible cancer-accelerating effects of nicotine can possibly be counteracted by green tea. My mother is a breast cancer survivor who chews nicotine gum, so I will probably suggest that she start taking green tea extract.

 

[emus]

I don't get it either. I think debate and examining the evidence is good, and I love it when someone can provide information to assuage our concerns, but canards like "everything causes cancer" - always intended to ridicule - don't fall into that category, and neither does the knee-jerk "It's better than smoking," followed by a testimonial.

Back to the topic, I am happy to know that the possible cancer-accelerating effects of nicotine can possibly be counteracted by green tea. My mother is a breast cancer survivor who chews nicotine gum, so I will probably suggest that she start taking green tea extract.

It's just difficult to determine what all causes cancer. I chased my tail on that subject till I was exhausted and defeated.

What brand and flavor green tea is effective?
Will cream and sugar negate the positive effects?
Or have to take extract?

 

[Anima]

What brand and flavor green tea is effective?
Will cream and sugar negate the positive effects?
Or have to take extract?

I don't have any idea. The linked article suggested that EGCG is important, and I believe that it is found in both extracts and tea. I read something about the low incidence of lung cancer in Japanese smokers, and I believe it concluded that three cups a day was the minimum dose to provide protective benefits.

I don't understand the insinuations (repeated ad nauseum on this thread), that the presented information is not valid if there are unanswered questions that arise from it. If it is asserted that nicotine is harmful, "Oh, yeah? What do you propose that we use instead!?" is not a logical rebuttal.

 

[emus]

What do you propose that we use instead!?

I'm content vaping black pepper extract, cinnamon EO and menthol zero.

I'm concerned these could be worse than nic.

I don't think anybody knows for sure.

 

[Anima]

Um, I think you took the quote attributed to me completely out of context.

 

[Tendril]

What brand and flavor green tea is effective?
Will cream and sugar negate the positive effects?
Or have to take extract?

Hmm, good question. I've read an article before suggesting that cream/milk in green tea sort of neutralizes the antioxidant effects. I never checked to see if the article they were referencing was peer-reviewed nor do I know if it affects the specific way green tea was shown to help in the article posted above (by others earlier in this topic)

The extract is a good point to bring up too. Can we actually get enough of whatever it is we're said to benefit from through a simple water extraction - making tea? Are the alkaloids or whatever is responsible for the results in their study water soluble? I don't know