Nicotine Comparisons

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David Wolf

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a year is a long time to remember peppery notes.... tried it recently?
I've only tried two brands of nicotine, the slight peppery taste is why The MFS remains unused and I swapped to NN. My long term memory is excellent and how dare you question it haha :lol:
The reason I mentioned a year ago is that it's entirely possible MFS is supplying great nicotine with no peppery taste now as some here said recently. Another possibility is that taste depends on the individual. I rely on mine :)
 

Boxster

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I've only tried two brands of nicotine, the slight peppery taste is why The MFS remains unused and I swapped to NN. My long term memory is excellent and how dare you question it haha :lol:
The reason I mentioned a year ago is that it's entirely possible MFS is supplying great nicotine with no peppery taste now as some here said recently. Another possibility is that taste depends on the individual. I rely on mine :)
I don't remember the time frame but MFS changed nic supplier for several months. They switched back to their original supplier after customer complaints.
 

Boxster

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Why nicotine salts?
I can't find much information on nic salts, but I did find an interesting reddit post. This was a long post so this is only a portion.

"If you hadn't heard, Pax claims the Juul is more effective for smokers than normal vapes because they use 'natural nicotine salts,' as found in the tobacco leaf instead of the freebase nicotine used in normal e-liquids & other pre-filled cigalikes. They show this chart, of nicotine blood plasma levels vs. time, to demonstrate the differences (but don't cite a proper study or published research protocol). It certainly appears compelling, and I've heard people describe Juul as delivering the 'rush' the remember from cigarettes (though that could just be the 50+ mg/mL nic level in the pods!). However, at least based on my knowledge, that just doesn't jive with the science. So what's the deal here?

Nicotine appears in nature in the tobacco plant (and other plants) in salt form -- a positively-charged ionized nicotine molecule bound to negatively-charged organic acid conjugates like ascorbate, citrate, or benzoate. When nicotine is extracted from plant matter to make pure nicotine concentrate, ammonia is used to increase the pH & revert the nicotine to its neutrally-charged free base form.

This is done for two reasons:

1) 'Freebase' nicotine is much more effectively absorbed in vapor form. Nicotine salts are more stable but harder to vaporize, as they require a higher temperature to volatilize than the freebase. In fact, adding ammonia-forming compounds to cigarettes so that ammonia is released under combustion and it reacts with the nicotine salts in the tobacco to volatilize the nicotine, increasing the conversion of (mostly-inactive) particulate nicotine into gas-phase nicotine 100-fold in this study. This form of nicotine also crosses the blood-brain barrier much more easily due to its neutral charge, thereby improving delivery of nicotine to the neurons upon which it exerts its primary effect.

2) The process of extracting nicotine from plant matter uses this acid-base reaction to solubilize the nicotine for extraction by butane (or other non-polar solvents). Converting back to the salt form appears to be seen as pointless and counterproductive, based on [1] above.

Furthermore, the Juul doesn't actually seem to include those 'natural nicotine salts' as they occur in tobacco. From the (sparse) information they've posted publicly, it seems that the JuulPods actually include the same freebase nicotine we're all familiar with from our own DIY escapades. However, Pax has added benzoic acid to their e-liquid, under the premise that the presence of H+ ions would ionize the nicotine, resulting in the formation of nicotine benzoate salt during the heat of vaporization.

In other words, it seems like Pax is using a process that's almost exactly the inverse of the ammonia-forming compounds used in cigarettes, which also use heat to catalyze a similar acid-base reaction in the opposite direction, from salt TO freebase.

If you want to read more about the use of ammonia-freebase conversion in cigarettes to purportedly increase the addictiveness (aka improve the 'flavor', according to Big Tobacco), this paper tells the whole story in glorious detail.

So, to break down my question into the simplest terms, given the available evidence seems to directly contradict the statements from Pax about the differential efficacy of nicotine salts and freebase in vapor/smoke, why would they attempt to convert their nicotine freebase back into the salt form? And furthermore, what is the explanation for their chart, which was supposedly produced using data from a study funded by Pax, but conducted independently. Is there an alternative explanation that would reconcile the apparent opposition between the chart and the extant literature about nicotine acid/base reactions?"

The linked study
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es970402f

The paper
The SECRET and SOUL of Marlboro: Phillip Morris and the Origins, Spread, and Denial of Nicotine Freebasing

Nicotine Freebase vs. Salt: Absorption & Vaporization Efficacy, contrasted with Pax Juul claims about Benzoic Acid & 'natural tobacco nicotine salts' -- WTFbroscience?! • /r/Deeper_DIY
 

stylemessiah

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Just a quick update on Hiliq NTN (synthetic nicotine). I have been vaping on it for the last few days I and am very impressed, super clean, smooth with a little throat hit. Cleanest nicotine I have ever tried by a long way and I was a nude nicotine only man. It is a racemic nicotine so it contains both the l-nicotine and d-nicotine (r) so its a little down on potency. I have adjusted from 3 to 4 mg and it seems fine. In case anyone is wondering about the r-nicotine and its safety I have found some good information regarding that (below) it is also USP grade certified. They have free shipping for a few more hours today only.

Application of nicotine enantiomers, derivatives and analogues in therapy of neurodegenerative disorders

+1 for Hiliq NTN

Bought some last week, it arrived monday, i have been using it for 2 days now. First impressions are that its much cleaner tasting than trad nic..i vape unflavoured. I dont have any cravings, and havent grown an extra head yet. So far i like it over trad nic. I havent posted a full review anywhere on it yet as i want to give it a week,. Is it more expensive...yes, is it worth it...let me try it for a week.

Another user on my home forum in Australia has a review on it as he got an early sample, and my own early experiences match his. None of them are negative.

I previously used Hiliq trad nic, the best trad nic i ever bought...none of the awful MFS nic that went off (in the freezer) after 3 months (not just me either, many reports of similar experiences) - i think they like to send the oldest nic they have to Australia because they know we wont send it back because of the postage...bunch of assclowns. Also not over-nicc'ed like HealthCabin nic. Always great service at Hiliq and one of their reps maintains a presence on my home forum.
 

Boxster

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@Boxster

Have you read the Juul / Pax Labs patent regarding their "salty" nic?
Patent US9215895 - Nicotine salt formulations for aerosol devices and methods thereof

Thanks @Rossum
Yes I had read this before, but they never explain why the effects of nicotine salts were faster than the freebase versions. In fact they mention several times that their results were unexpected. I was just trying to find a scientific explanation.

I am down to 3mg nicotine and have almost 8 liters stored, so for myself I am pretty much set. My interest in salts is for my wife, who still smokes. When she tried vaping it was to harsh and makes her cough. I'm hoping salts will enable me to make a high nic juice that is more suitable for her.
 

sketchness

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Thanks @Rossum
Yes I had read this before, but they never explain why the effects of nicotine salts were faster than the freebase versions. In fact they mention several times that their results were unexpected. I was just trying to find a scientific explanation.

I am down to 3mg nicotine and have almost 8 liters stored, so for myself I am pretty much set. My interest in salts is for my wife, who still smokes. When she tried vaping it was to harsh and makes her cough. I'm hoping salts will enable me to make a high nic juice that is more suitable for her.

The Smooth Nic Salt solution from NN is right up your alley. I have some and 6mg feels like a 0mg. 10mg test batch was very light on the throat hit.
 

Mactavish

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The Smooth Nic Salt solution from NN is right up your alley. I have some and 6mg feels like a 0mg. 10mg test batch was very light on the throat hit.

That's what I ordered, haven't had a chance to make a mix. But I don't try to save money with my NIC, and I trust NN.
 

mhertz

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Nicvape doesn't use nicselect for some time now and i'm pretty sure they use chemnovatic, based on the expiry-date which for chemnovatic is always two years except a day. They post 3'rd party COAs which show hexane to be under detection-limit of 0.01%. Many COAs often don't mention hexane or whatever extraction-solvent otherwise used, just related alkaloids and water as only impurities, which is annoying to me.

I'm gonna do a new round off unflavored testings of new batches from chemnovatic, nicselect and nicobrand, the usual EU suspects from most EU vendors. I'm doing it yet again because i've just switched to single-coil builds at low wattage(25W) and higher nic(9mg), which makes it much, much easier to find differences in the nics. Before I was to lazy to rebuild for the testings and only had mechs and 0.1ohm RDAs around, so could only take like max 1 sec draws and not many before getting dizzy/nic-sick. I'm still on the quest for finding the best nic for me to stock up with.

My normally used UK-made nic, nicobrand, has now a slight spicy hot-pepper taste as backnote, not detected before by me at lower nic and higher wattage, hence my will for new round of observations.
 
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