Nicotine Comparisons

[dansus]

For UK readers who are looking to stock up before May 20th cutoff, you may have have considered buying from two of the more well known suppliers, Darstar and Lucemill. I bought 500ml of 72mg PG nic to try them out.

Mixed with Lucemill VG base and no flavouring at 18mg, giving 25/75 PG/VG mix. Shaked and vaped, and tested after a week.

Darkstar is clean and clear, Lucemills came with a slight tinge of colour. Both are near identical, as in they are not the cleanest nic ive tried but more than adequate for the job. Only subtle difference is Darkstar has a touch more bite to it, and gave a bit more of a nic hit.

I would say the sweetness of the VG is coming through more on the Darkstar mix.

Obviously very subjective and hardly scientific, buts thats what i got. Tested in a von erl with a mesh wick.

 

[dansus]

I ordered some VG 72mg nic for my salts testing, its from Alchem International via Ecigshop in the UK.

Made up a little 54mg tester by mistake, was supposed to be 18mg. But have to say, it wasnt harsh at all. Anyone know if Alchem has a good rep for their nic?

*btw it looked a bit pinkish.

 

[mhertz]

[...] Anyone know if Alchem has a good rep for their nic?

*btw it looked a bit pinkish.

Imho, alchem is good nic. They consistently shows COAs of very high purity and very low impurities. However, it still to me has both a special chemical smell and taste, though it is very slight and only detected unflavored, except using high-nic. There where previously issues, some years ago with rubbery taste, but they state to have fixed it and the many batches i've had from different vendors have been exactly the same, usually slight pink in VG.

My favorite of the few sources(not vendors though) I've tried(alchem, chemnovatic, nicobrand and J&G from china) is nicobrand, e.g. from lubrisolve. It's produced in UK(ireland) and is the cleanest i've tried. I can't get from e.g. darkstar as don't deliver out of UK and the same with the US recommended places, which my customs would send back.

If you're from UK, I would look into piratesvape for sure. It's CNT nic which has a very good rep in UK. They don't deliver out of UK so haven't tried myself(mailed them several times and even mailed CNT in there nerudia headquaters to please send me another vendor featuring there nic but they couldn't provide that info of course, unfortunetly.)

 

[sofarsogood]

Storing Your Nicotine Solution - Nude Nicotine

I read the page. They seem to say something contratictory. Is it a misprint?
"shelf-life varies largely by nicotine strength, as well as PG/VG ratio. Higher nicotine strengths will possess more nicotine molecules, less likely to be completely solvated by their carrier (PG/VG). Put simply – 100mg/mL formulations will keep for less time than a 24mg/mL formulation. PG is also a much better solvent for this purpose – it has an extremely low viscosity, will dissipate dispersed oxygen bubbles quickly (say that 4 times fast!), and has a longer shelf-life chemically (2 years from DOM, vs. VG – 1 year). Thus some may only see a short shelf-life for a 100mg/mL solution kept on a shelf compared to a 24mg/mL solution kept in multiple frozen aliquots. Remember, nicotine solution solvated in wither PG or VG WILL NOT FREEZE!"

The statement I put in bold seems to say that higher nic concentrations should have a longer shelf life (which fits my intuition) but then it goes on to say the reverse. I'm confused. I also don't think nic is as perishable as they imply based on even my limitied experience with nic stored in the freezer. They do seem to say they keep their inventory nic at low temperature.

(One of the reasons i'm intereted in a bottle roller is so i can remix nic stored long term without introducing so many bubbles)

 

[cigatron]

Deleted post

 

[cigatron]

Seems to me the best way to store something that you don't want to trap new/more oxygen into each time you use it would be a syringe. Maybe large ones with big tips for squeezing out nic?

Amazon.com: Karlling 150ML Large Big Plastic Hydroponics Nutrient Measuring Syringe: Kitchen & Dining

Something similar to these but $2.49 on fleabay w/o the tubing. I could take one out of the freezer, let it warm up, introduce 5ml of air into the syringe, roll the syringe to stir, push out the air by holding the tip upwards, push out the quantity of nic required and then put it back into the freezer. Seems like that would introduce the least amount of oxygen into my nic.

All I have to do now is figure out how to cap them...lol

Looks like the small version of these caps would work. Maybe a little electrical tape to ensure they don't slip off.

ClosetMaid Large and Small Shelf End Caps for Wire Shelving (14-Pack) 71016 at The Home Depot - Mobile

 

[dansus]

If you're from UK, I would look into piratesvape for sure. It's CNT nic which has a very good rep in UK. They don't deliver out of UK so haven't tried myself(mailed them several times and even mailed CNT in there nerudia headquaters to please send me another vendor featuring there nic but they couldn't provide that info of course, unfortunetly.)

Sadly, Piratesvape has closed. Ive been on the hunt ever since. Interesting about Lubrisolve, didnt know they used Nicobrand.

 

[mhertz]

Ohh, sorry didn't even knew that. Yeah, lubrisolve won't disclose there source, but they gave enough info to me to let me pinpoint it eitherway. The only pharmaceutical company producing there nic in UK and licensed to do so, can only be one source; nicobrand. Also, some specifics in there COAs also tell-tale'd it for me. Inawera also uses nicobrand, and totallywicked, though that one isn't a "secret". The only other nic in UK, nerudia, isn't a manufacturer but a reseller/distributer of CNT nic, like piratesvape used to sell. Chemnovatic sold by Vaperstek I strongly suspect used nicobrand at least in the beginning, as vaperstek's site used to state premium UK sourced nic(and before nerudia opened in UK). Another ex-member here, which is friends with vaperstek owner Kevin, also stated here once that there nic varied between UK and indian nic. Finally, one of the owners/managers of molinshop, which is married to one of the two owners of chemnovatic, once stated that chemnovatic and inawera was same nic...

 

[Mactavish]

I read the page. They seem to say something contratictory. Is it a misprint?
"shelf-life varies largely by nicotine strength, as well as PG/VG ratio. Higher nicotine strengths will possess more nicotine molecules, less likely to be completely solvated by their carrier (PG/VG). Put simply – 100mg/mL formulations will keep for less time than a 24mg/mL formulation. PG is also a much better solvent for this purpose – it has an extremely low viscosity, will dissipate dispersed oxygen bubbles quickly (say that 4 times fast!), and has a longer shelf-life chemically (2 years from DOM, vs. VG – 1 year). Thus some may only see a short shelf-life for a 100mg/mL solution kept on a shelf compared to a 24mg/mL solution kept in multiple frozen aliquots. Remember, nicotine solution solvated in wither PG or VG WILL NOT FREEZE!"

The statement I put in bold seems to say that higher nic concentrations should have a longer shelf life (which fits my intuition) but then it goes on to say the reverse. I'm confused. I also don't think nic is as perishable as they imply based on even my limitied experience with nic stored in the freezer. They do seem to say they keep their inventory nic at low temperature.

(One of the reasons i'm intereted in a bottle roller is so i can remix nic stored long term without introducing so many bubbles)

Sorry, I don't see any misinformation:

"Higher nicotine strengths will possess more nicotine molecules, less likely to be completely solvated by their carrier (PG/VG). Put simply – 100mg/mL formulations will keep for less time than a 24mg/mL formulation."

Since I don't buy the PG version, I accept my VG 100mg will not last as long. But you are right that vendors don't quote long shelf life, of more then a year or two, probably because they want to stay in business selling more. From various sources, nic kept in the freezer can potentially last 10 years or longer.

I don't sweat the details at this point since I did a ton or reading and research on the storage subject, not just on this site.

For super long term, I bought some NN, with the argon gas, in glass bottles, those went deep in the freezer. Then I bought more 100mg/VG based, that came in the PET plastic bottles. I immediately distilled into 120ml & 250ml CLEAR GLASS bottles with polycone caps. The idea being you only take out a new smaller bottle from the freezer when you need it, without opening the other bottles.

All my nic is in the FREEZER! Except of course a smaller bottle that I'm currently using, and that goes back in the normal refrigerator when I'm done mixing. I take it out a few hours before mixing again.

Personally, I don't need to test how nic degrades when on a shelf at room temperature, I've seen it get darker over time, as the oxidation effect of both time and temperature, and of course AIR, all covered in the article you read, good for you!

I have a substantial amount of money invested in long term nic, so I'm satisfied with the bottling techniques I've learned from other "experts", that I have followed. I guess if I'm still alive and vaping in 10 years, I'll know for sure!

 

[sofarsogood]

Sorry, I don't see any misinformation:

"Higher nicotine strengths will possess more nicotine molecules, less likely to be completely solvated by their carrier (PG/VG). Put simply – 100mg/mL formulations will keep for less time than a 24mg/mL formulation."

Since I don't buy the PG version, I accept my VG 100mg will not last as long. But you are right that vendors don't quote long shelf life, of more then a year or two, probably because they want to stay in business selling more. From various sources, nic kept in the freezer can potentially last 10 years or longer.

I don't sweat the details at this point since I did a ton or reading and research on the storage subject, not just on this site.

For super long term, I bought some NN, with the argon gas, in glass bottles, those went deep in the freezer. Then I bought more 100mg/VG based, that came in the PET plastic bottles. I immediately distilled into 120ml & 250ml CLEAR GLASS bottles with polycone caps. The idea being you only take out a new smaller bottle from the freezer when you need it, without opening the other bottles.

All my nic is in the FREEZER! Except of course a smaller bottle that I'm currently using, and that goes back in the normal refrigerator when I'm done mixing. I take it out a few hours before mixing again.

Personally, I don't need to test how nic degrades when on a shelf at room temperature, I've seen it get darker over time, as the oxidation effect of both time and temperature, and of course AIR, all covered in the article you read, good for you!

I have a substantial amount of money invested in long term nic, so I'm satisfied with the bottling techniques I've learned from other "experts", that I have followed. I guess if I'm still alive and vaping in 10 years, I'll know for sure!

The generally accepted advice given on the forum for preserving nic is practical, feasible, and prudent. Still, why does nic seem to do so well in leaf tobacco, what preserves it? If tobacco cell walls were somehow impermeable to the things that degrade nic then how do harvesters get nic sick from handling too much of it? May be nic does oxydize in tobacco the same as in liquid form but that doesn't change the smoking experience for some reason. Can room temperature degrade nic in the absense of UV or oxygen? There are vapers who aren't interested in these questions and then there are vapers who are interested.

The quote you highlighted says higher nic concentrations degrade slower than lower nic concentrations. The statement that immediately follows says exactly the reverse. If the second statement is true then 100% pure would degrade the fastest. is that what they mean to say?

 

[Mactavish]

The generally accepted advice given on the forum for preserving nic is practical, feasible, and prudent. Still, why does nic seem to do so well in leaf tobacco, what preserves it? If tobacco cell walls were somehow impermeable to the things that degrade nic then how do harvesters get nic sick from handling too much of it? May be nic does oxydize in tobacco the same as in liquid form but that doesn't change the smoking experience for some reason. Can room temperature degrade nic in the absense of UV or oxygen? There are vapers who aren't interested in these questions and then there are vapers who are interested.

The quote you highlighted says higher nic concentrations degrade slower than lower nic concentrations. The statement that immediately follows says exactly the reverse. If the second statement is true then 100% pure would degrade the fastest. is that what they mean to say?

Where does it state that? It says: "completely solvated", which means absorbed. It says higher nic = degrades faster. Highlight the part that says "slower", I don't see that.

As far as leaf tobacco, I don't know how to compare apples to oranges.

As far as "Can room temperature degrade nic in the absense of UV or oxygen?"

First of all, there are few if any containers at a reasonable price that could be called oxygen proof, so you will eventually get oxidation. Temperature has been discussed, higher temps degrade the nic FASTER, hence the use of the freezer, are you opposed to using one, or don't have the space?

Since I'm not really sure what it is that you are try to research, perhaps someone else could help. Good luck.

 

[Rossum]

As far as "Can room temperature degrade nic in the absense of UV or oxygen?"

I suspect that technically, the answer is no. But in practice, that may not be the case...

First of all, there are few if any containers at a reasonable price that could be called oxygen proof, so you will eventually get oxidation. Temperature has been discussed, higher temps degrade the nic FASTER, hence the use of the freezer, are you opposed to using one, or don't have the space?

I believe that glass bottles with polycone caps are close enough to "oxygen proof" that we might as well consider them to be that. But: There is also no practical way to to package nic without some oxygen being trapped in the container along with the nic, and I believe that's why colder temperatures help. Even with properly packaged nic; cold slows down the rate at which the nic reacts with the oxygen that's trapped in the bottle with it, both in the headspace, and dissolved in the VG or PG carrier.

At one point Kurt did some calculations and showed the amount of oxygen co-resident in a mostly full bottle could never have a material effect on the potency of the nic therein, but that doesn't mean it's not sufficient to adversely affect the color, taste, or smell of the product.

 

[Mactavish]

I suspect that technically, the answer is no. But in practice, that may not be the case...


I believe that glass bottles with polycone caps are close enough to "oxygen proof" that we might as well consider them to be that. But: There is also no practical way to to package nic without some oxygen being trapped in the container along with the nic, and I believe that's why colder temperatures help. Even with properly packaged nic; cold slows down the rate at which the nic reacts with the oxygen that's trapped in the bottle with it, both in the headspace, and dissolved in the VG or PG carrier.

At one point Kurt did some calculations and showed the amount of oxygen co-resident in a mostly full bottle could never have a material effect on the potency of the nic therein, but that doesn't mean it's not sufficient to adversely affect the color, taste, or smell of the product.

Agreed, mostly what I've stated already. Though the first part of your message is NOT a quoted "question" from me, I already knew the answer. That was asked by the previous poster, so be careful when using the "quotes" forum feature to avoid confusion.

I'm not aware of any polycone cap and oxygen leaking studies, though I do have some faith in them, but I suspect that any cap using any kind of plastic based oring/sealer design would eventually break down, as you state, may be negligible. For my ultrasonic mixing I bought several Pyrex medical bottles that are waterproof, but are extremely expensive compared to polycone cap style bottles, too expensive for nic freezer storage IMO.

As far as "But: There is also no practical way to to package nic without some oxygen being trapped in the container along with the nic".

Are you discounting the argon gas techniques?

As Kurt has posted, and I followed his advice, I left a tiny air bubble at the top of my decanterd clear glass bottles with 100mg nic, for expansion purposes. I believe it's about the best we can do for home brewed storage purposes. And yes, Kurt, is the NIC-MAN!

 

[cigatron]

Curious why for some glass is preferred over plastic for storing nic. Does oxygen diffuse through plastic? Or maybe a flavor thing? Or how well the cap seals?

 

[mhertz]

Yes, some types lets air in and some leach iplastic particles into the liquid itself, whereas glass is inert and with a tightly closing cap and minimal headroom in freezer is the best we can do. Or going overkill and adding argon too. Kurt states that polycones and euro-dropper-caps are good as they both act as a good gasket. For keeping nic in shorter time, maybe a year or two, then plastic could be fine in freezer possibly, but why gamble it...

 

[Mactavish]

Curious why for some glass is preferred over plastic for storing nic. Does oxygen diffuse through plastic? Or maybe a flavor thing? Or how well the cap seals?

Yes, everything "mhertz" said. Plastics can leech some of its chemicals over time, the only thing I put in HDPE or LDPE plastic bottles are my final mixes for carrying, since it short term. If left in these bottles for a few weeks, the contents oxidize very noticeably. Air can penetrate these types of plastics fairly quickly.

GO GLASS!!!!!!!

NOT DIRCTED AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR:

In my opinion, everyone here doing simple chemistry, like mixing ejuice, should research and learn all the parts that make up the process, not just nic, flavors etc. The bottles, the syringes, all of it. It's time consuming, but rewarding in terms of your knowledge and safety.

Here is a simple example, while some don't care or know, that leaving your store bought flavors with the rubber bulb dropper is not recommended, and that's because many flavors can slowly dissolve the cheap rubber in the dropper top. Without doing a fair amount of reading I would never have learned that, besides the fact that those dropper caps are not very air tight to begin with. Since many don't care even after they learn the facts, then guess what, I don't care either. Take care of YOURSELF and vape safe!

 

[cigatron]

Thanks guys, that's what I needed to know and explains why no one responded to my syringe idea

Go glass and polycone caps!

 

[Rossum]

Are you discounting the argon gas techniques?

No, almost the nic I have in storage is argon-purged (NN Armor V1). It certainly cannot hurt, but it's not at all clear how much this reduces the total amount of oxygen sealed in the bottle because it doesn't eliminate whatever oxygen was dissolved the the PG or VG carrier.

 

[kiba]

Sorry, what is the may 20th cut off in the UK?

 

[dansus]

Sorry, what is the may 20th cut off in the UK?

We will no longer be able to buy nicotine base over 20mg and in bottles sizes no larger than 10ml.