Nicotine Comparisons

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DVap

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I was always afraid that I would like the WTA a lot more, and not want my regular nic.

Jim,

Your concern is a valid one. Cyrus also makes a good point. WTA isn't cheap.

That being said, my vision for WTA was as a lifeboat for those vapers who could not give up cigarettes. (For those of you unfamiliar with the background, I theorized the concept of WTA back in 2009 and produced the first WTA in the fall of that year). The inspiration for WTA came from Swedish snus. Back then, there was a community of snus users on ECF who weren't all too thrilled with the effectiveness of nicotine eliquids in knocking out their cigarette cravings. They found Swedish snus to be very effective, and many of them combined vaping with Snus and they found their cigarettes cravings were gone. Some of them even quit vaping entirely, relying only on snus.

As a chemist, I found these observations about snus quite interesting. I asked myself, "What is it about snus that is different from nicotine only eliquids?". Obviously, snus is a whole tobacco product and nicotine eliquid is not. So, I refined the question, "What is it about tobacco that is different from nicotine?". I knew the effectiveness of snus was independent of burning and inhaling the tobacco. Snus worked and you didn't have to light up to get the benefit. It took me awhile, but my attention turned to the alkaloid profile of tobacco. Nicotine is generally viewed by the medical community as the addictive component of tobacco. As such, it gets all the attention. Nicotine, like many alkaloids, is psychoactive. But nicotine is not the only alkaloid present in tobacco. So, in a nutshell, the theory behind WTA is that tobacco addiction is not nicotine addiction, it is tobacco alkaloid addiction. This includes nicotine and all the other alkaloids occurring in tobacco in lesser amounts.

To put it quite another way, let's talk about pizza. If you just eat the pepperonis off the pizza, it might taste pretty good, but it just ain't pizza. Add some cheese, sauce, crust, etc... now that's pizza. But let's not push the analogy too far.

Some folks who've tried WTA find that it really doesn't do anything for them. Generally speaking, these folks really weren't having any trouble with cigarette cravings in the first place, and the old adage probably holds true for them that you don't need to fix what isn't broken.

When I first made WTA, I sent it to several people for testing. These weren't just random schmoes... these were individuals who couldn't find satisfaction from any amount of vaping. TWISTED VICTOR, for example would frequently vape up to 75 mg. Even with insane nicotine levels like this, he felt like, as he put it, a depressed shell of a person. TropicalBob (the man, the myth, the legend) could and did consume about any tobacco product you could imagine in a daily struggle to stay away from cigarettes. Finally, there was olderthandirt who found good relief from snus. Each of them found relief from their cravings with WTA. None was more dramatic than Victor who was thrilled to feel, as he put it, "Just normal again and actually motivated to do things". Of the three, only olderthandirt is still active on ECF (as far as I know).

So what are some things to know about WTA?

1. It's expensive. It's expensive because it's exceedingly difficult to produce. Many hours of hard work go into producing WTA. It's nothing like producing a nicotine eliquid. With nicotine liquid, you get nicotine and you get PG or VG and mix them together with some flavorings and you've got eliquid. With WTA, you've got to extract the alkaloids out of the tobacco. Then you've got to separate the alkaloids from all the other tobacco material that gets extracted as well. Alkaloids represent maybe one or two percent of tobacco. The WTA extraction process must remove this tiny percentage from the tobacco, capture only this tiny percentage, and eliminate all traces of the remaining 99% or so of the tobacco.

2. It's effective. This is, of course, no medical claim. People wouldn't pay a premium unless it really did something for them. Again, some folks who try WTA don't really see what the big deal is. As a rule, these folks will report that nicotine eliquid works pretty well for them.

3. It's probably not as safe as nicotine only eliquid but far safer than cigarettes. I've said it many times, if you're truly concerned about safety and want to minimize risk, breath good clean air. As the chemical complexity of a material increases, so does the possibility that something in that material will be bad for you. Like nicotine liquid and snus, WTA is immensely less complex than burning and inhaling tobacco. The principle behind any of these products is tobacco harm reduction.

4. As an eliquid, it stands on it's own. The term "unflavored WTA" is a bit of a misnomer. WTA does have a flavor, and if made correctly, it's a very subtle and satisfying flavor. Mr.Mann probably won't mind me quoting him as saying that he's tried hundreds of eliquids, and good WTA, even without any added flavor, beats them all (That being said, one should give consideration to whether they want to use WTA based on taste alone. It is intended for those who feel they need it, and is likely more addictive than nicotine only eliquid. Again, no need to fix what isn't broken if nicotine liquid works for you).

5. It's subjective. Currently two vendors sell WTA: AromaEJuice and WholeCig. Some folks swear by one or the other. With apologies to WholeCig, I find that AromaEJuice is the way to go. I'll admit considerable bias here since I created the WTA process used by AromaEJuice. Your mileage may vary.

6. It's still fairly unknown. Even though WTA has been around for several years now, the ECF community is largely unaware or only vaguely aware of WTA.

7. It's controversial. But so is vaping as a whole. This is quite convincingly evidenced by the FDA's outright hostility toward ecigarettes. There are movements afoot worldwide to squash vaping because "we don't know enough about it and bla bla bla". Disingenuous crap, all of it. We know plenty about cigarettes and their future is assured. .......s, the whole stinking lot of them.
 

Mr.Mann

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4. As an eliquid, it stands on it's own. The term "unflavored WTA" is a bit of a misnomer. WTA does have a flavor, and if made correctly, it's a very subtle and satisfying flavor. Mr.Mann probably won't mind me quoting him as saying that he's tried hundreds of eliquids, and good WTA, even without any added flavor, beats them all (That being said, one should give consideration to whether they want to use WTA based on taste alone. It is intended for those who feel they need it, and is likely more addictive than nicotine only eliquid. Again, no need to fix what isn't broken if nicotine liquid works for you).

Here is a series of reviews and a final comparative review of 3 separate unflavored WTA liquids (DVap's, AeJ's and WholeCig's). I have recently updated the reviews to reflect some key points I originally failed to convey, or learned about after the fact.
 
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Cnew

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Here is a series of reviews and a final comparative review of 3 separate unflavored WTA liquids (DVap's, AeJ's and WholeCig's). I have recently updated the reviews to reflect some key points I originally failed to convey, or learned about after the fact.

Thanks for sharing your blog link, Mann. With all due respect, I disagree with your assessment of the Aroma WTAs in comparison to WC's. I have not tried DVap's (yet) and suspect that the AeJ WTA is going to be more similar than not to DVap's than the WC version, since DVap worked with Jerry on his streamlining of WTA recently. Of course, DVap would have to speak for himself on that matter. Nonetheless, perhaps you should order a more recent version of AeJ WTA before making the final call.
Personally, my experience has been that AeJ has consistently produced a high quality WTA with immediate, satifying results in a safe manner, has ALWAYS provided outstanding customer service and displayed consummate professionalism. But that's just me.
 
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JeremyR

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Great thread Cyrus. I just ordered some nic base from mfs, double my normal amount, hoping to get that strong peppery throat hit. Along with my shipping email came a newsletter saying thier new batch uses a new process which clarifies it more! I'm a little disappointed, we'll see but now it's probably not as dirty and lacking the qualities I was hoping for. ie Stronger th and peppery sentsation.

Any word on this new nic? Mine will be here Friday or Saturday.
 

r77r7r

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    Great thread Cyrus. I just ordered some nic base from mfs, double my normal amount, hoping to get that strong peppery throat hit. Along with my shipping email came a newsletter saying thier new batch uses a new process which clarifies it more! I'm a little disappointed, we'll see but now it's probably not as dirty and lacking the qualities I was hoping for. ie Stronger th and peppery sentsation.

    Any word on this new nic? Mine will be here Friday or Saturday.

    Maybe it's that new nic talked about at CASAA- link in my signature below.
     

    Wow1420

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    I just want to chime in a little on the "expense" of WTA. I was quite concerned about that at first, but it's not as bad as I first thought, because I found that I can add just a few drops of the unflavored DIY WTA to a tank full of conventional liquid and still get the WTA effects. Other people will vape it "straight" of course, but not necessarily all day long.

    For all that, I'm not trying to talk anyone into using it, unless you really feel that something's missing from your regular vape.
     

    aikanae1

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    Great thread Cyrus. I just ordered some nic base from mfs, double my normal amount, hoping to get that strong peppery throat hit. Along with my shipping email came a newsletter saying thier new batch uses a new process which clarifies it more! I'm a little disappointed, we'll see but now it's probably not as dirty and lacking the qualities I was hoping for. ie Stronger th and peppery sentsation.

    Any word on this new nic? Mine will be here Friday or Saturday.

    You might also want to check at Inawere. They have limited supply of DNB - Dirty Nic Base for an ashy taste. I don't know if that includes peppery since I've never tried it. There are reviews over at Inawere flavors thread. The new nic base referred to in the article from CASAA I thought was a pharmecutical grade which is very expensive. I could be wrong though.

     

    wolcen

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    ....The new nic base referred to in the article from CASAA I thought was a pharmecutical grade which is very expensive. I could be wrong though.

    Most (all?) vendors are already selling USP (i.e. US pharmacopoeia assay passing) nicotine products. Perhaps that it's USP *and* made in USA will make it more expensive though.
     

    Crunktanium

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    It would not be economically feasible to produce nic in the US and therefore nobody is going to do it. Most people expect a 10ml bottle of ejuice to be under $6 and yet some designer juice already cost over $10 for this size. So think of what would happen if the nicotine cost tripled or even quadrupled. ROI would have to increase for vendors to invest more which means ejuice that currently costs about $10 or less would end up costing $25 or more. If a small minority can afford to pay that it still wont be enough to sustain an entire US based nic industry. Nobody can operate a factory in the US and be competitive when it costs a fifth or less to do so in China. If it were feasible both the Tobacco and Pharma industry have the money and knowledge to make it happen.
     

    JeremyR

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    There's a certain kind of nic I'm looking for. It has that peppery note. This particular nic I felt did have better th but at any rate I liked how it added to my tobacco mixes. I've had it before In a premix I've been trying to replicate. So based on reviews ordered some mfs to try. But as of last week they are selling a different kind of nic now and that's what I got.
     

    Cool_Breeze

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    There's a certain kind of nic I'm looking for. It has that peppery note. This particular nic I felt did have better th but at any rate I liked how it added to my tobacco mixes. I've had it before In a premix I've been trying to replicate. So based on reviews ordered some mfs to try. But as of last week they are selling a different kind of nic now and that's what I got.

    My, now nearly empty bottle of Oct. 2011 MFS nicotine base is pretty peppery and has good TH.
     

    Cyrus Vap

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    There's a certain kind of nic I'm looking for. It has that peppery note. This particular nic I felt did have better th but at any rate I liked how it added to my tobacco mixes. I've had it before In a premix I've been trying to replicate. So based on reviews ordered some mfs to try. But as of last week they are selling a different kind of nic now and that's what I got.


    Been trying to dig into this for you, and for all of us who like the rugged MFS.

    http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...530-lesson-discount-fresh-clear-nicotine.html

    No answer yet...
     

    Cyrus Vap

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    So while I'm waiting for TaylorMade to get back to me about whether my batch came from the funny smelling/tasting lot, I decided to mix some and try it. It's different from anything I've ever had, in a bad way. The pepper and kick is all there, but there is this really unpleasant smokey/burnt rubber overtone to the vape.

    Figures first time I buy a one liter bottle of nic I get the lemon… :facepalm:
     

    JeremyR

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    I got the first batch of the new process mfs nic and it seems weak. I usually vape 12mg. I vaped a tank of this 36mg straight up when I got it and it didn't seem very strong nic wise. Also has little th. I wonder if I got a weak mix. 18mg usually gets me pretty nic'd out. The 36 didn't seem as strong as 18s I've vaped in the past. I don't have a nic test kit to find out. I will try it straight up again to see what it's like tomorrow...

    Well loaded up a tank of it, it is better than at first. I think the problem was that it was just mixed 3 days before I got it. It needed to steep and be blended. It's been a few weeks now and I shook it up good. It seems normal. In line with exc nic
     
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