Nicotine Comparisons
- Thread starter Cyrus Vap
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...And they post quite a bit of data on their nic, so I'm hoping they got their act together
Yeah, I noticed that too - they have all the relevant data in clear view and I really appreciate that. Why don't they all do that?? They've got to have easy access to that data themselves, wouldn't you think?
I'd still like to try the box elder but with a group of people: entry price is just way too high for my budget
If you grab a .5L, let me know if you'll do a small resale, would ya? I do have testing supplies too.
They are both good. They yellow a bit faster. Just freeze that needs to be stored for a longer period.
I agree with Shilo who agrees with Jimi. Right now the only two bottles of Nic that I have are from ECX and VZ.
I almost missed it, Cyrus Vap---happy birthday horsie! Hope you had a great one!! 
, if not Happy Sunday 
Happy B-Day, Cyrus!
Someone said my favorite unflavored is RTS. Not sure when I made such a definitive statement, but I vape a variety of nics unflavored, including RTS, Vermont Vapor, WL regular, ECX, and Box Elder.
Right now I am enjoying Box Elder 18 mg VG with 20% distilled water. I do love its bite and taste...just something about it is very nice to me.
The issue with Box Elder was accurate nicotine levels, which were all over the map, and Brad himself admitted there were mistakes in labeling. There was also the issue of some VERY high levels of nic. After the whole storm, and BE closed their doors and recalled nic, I actually worked with Brad to help him with his QC. In the months after I tested his nicotine for accuracy, evaluated more detailed nic purity lab test results, and it was clear to me he was eventually able to have very accurate and pure nic. The purity and quality of his nic was NEVER in question, just his nic levels.
If you look here on BE's site for 500 mL 100 mg:
Box Elder Chemical Supply - 500 ML 100 Mg/Ml
And click on Batch titration, you will see my titration curve results for these batches. Yes, I ran these myself. Those who know chemistry will see this is not an indicator titration, but an analysis of a pH curve through the first equivalence point of free-base nicotine. The COA is for the pure free-base nic used...clearly high purity. The GC-MS is for the 100 mg liquid, and is a bit more detailed in what it picks up than the titration. Since most amines have a similar pKb as nicotine, a titration will measure the total amount of all these, not just nic. Thus titration has its shortcomings, but is a good secondary (and cheaper) analysis of a retail liquid once the purity of the nic itself is well known.
It could well be the characteristic taste of BE nic is in part from the Benzoic acid -2-[[[4-(4-hydroxy-4-methylpentyl)-,
3-cyclohexen-1-yl]methylene]amino]-, methyl-ester (seen in GC-MS of 100 mg liquid). This looks to be a tobacco compound that has come along with the extraction. It is a compound used in perfumes, and is probably naturally occurring in tobacco. It would also be hard to remove by extraction from nicotine. regardless, it appears from the literature that it is generally considered safe.
This is all very interesting. This is the first GC-MS I have seen posted for a retail liquid. I am glad Brad is covering all his bases. In terms of nic tastes, I find BE and RTS to be most of the time very similar, but I've not seen GC-MS of retail RTS liquid. Perhaps this amino-ester is also present in RTS, thus the similar taste. Of course the taste could also be from other minor trace compounds, such as other alkaloids which need to be very low in amounts, but not necessarily zero, as well as trace oxides.
Brad Bacher is a good guy, but I think demand pressures resulted in some sloppiness during the period he was one of the top nic suppliers to this community (2011), and he did not solve the issue well on his own. It has been some months since I have worked with him, but given what I know, and the QC work I have done for him, I would say his nicotine can be trusted. It was never my intent to put him out of business. Indeed, the opposite is true: I intended to get him back up to being a supplier that can be trusted to have good product. I see he has indeed come a long way in doing that, better than most.
And it looks like he is selling 500 mL bottles again, which I am happy to see. His price now for this is about $20 more than it was 2 years ago. Not the lowest price on nic, but not the highest, either.
Someone said my favorite unflavored is RTS. Not sure when I made such a definitive statement, but I vape a variety of nics unflavored, including RTS, Vermont Vapor, WL regular, ECX, and Box Elder.
Right now I am enjoying Box Elder 18 mg VG with 20% distilled water. I do love its bite and taste...just something about it is very nice to me.
The issue with Box Elder was accurate nicotine levels, which were all over the map, and Brad himself admitted there were mistakes in labeling. There was also the issue of some VERY high levels of nic. After the whole storm, and BE closed their doors and recalled nic, I actually worked with Brad to help him with his QC. In the months after I tested his nicotine for accuracy, evaluated more detailed nic purity lab test results, and it was clear to me he was eventually able to have very accurate and pure nic. The purity and quality of his nic was NEVER in question, just his nic levels.
If you look here on BE's site for 500 mL 100 mg:
Box Elder Chemical Supply - 500 ML 100 Mg/Ml
And click on Batch titration, you will see my titration curve results for these batches. Yes, I ran these myself. Those who know chemistry will see this is not an indicator titration, but an analysis of a pH curve through the first equivalence point of free-base nicotine. The COA is for the pure free-base nic used...clearly high purity. The GC-MS is for the 100 mg liquid, and is a bit more detailed in what it picks up than the titration. Since most amines have a similar pKb as nicotine, a titration will measure the total amount of all these, not just nic. Thus titration has its shortcomings, but is a good secondary (and cheaper) analysis of a retail liquid once the purity of the nic itself is well known.
It could well be the characteristic taste of BE nic is in part from the Benzoic acid -2-[[[4-(4-hydroxy-4-methylpentyl)-,
3-cyclohexen-1-yl]methylene]amino]-, methyl-ester (seen in GC-MS of 100 mg liquid). This looks to be a tobacco compound that has come along with the extraction. It is a compound used in perfumes, and is probably naturally occurring in tobacco. It would also be hard to remove by extraction from nicotine. regardless, it appears from the literature that it is generally considered safe.
This is all very interesting. This is the first GC-MS I have seen posted for a retail liquid. I am glad Brad is covering all his bases. In terms of nic tastes, I find BE and RTS to be most of the time very similar, but I've not seen GC-MS of retail RTS liquid. Perhaps this amino-ester is also present in RTS, thus the similar taste. Of course the taste could also be from other minor trace compounds, such as other alkaloids which need to be very low in amounts, but not necessarily zero, as well as trace oxides.
Brad Bacher is a good guy, but I think demand pressures resulted in some sloppiness during the period he was one of the top nic suppliers to this community (2011), and he did not solve the issue well on his own. It has been some months since I have worked with him, but given what I know, and the QC work I have done for him, I would say his nicotine can be trusted. It was never my intent to put him out of business. Indeed, the opposite is true: I intended to get him back up to being a supplier that can be trusted to have good product. I see he has indeed come a long way in doing that, better than most.
And it looks like he is selling 500 mL bottles again, which I am happy to see. His price now for this is about $20 more than it was 2 years ago. Not the lowest price on nic, but not the highest, either.
BE has more taste than WL regular. There is a slightly gamey bite to it. WLR is more subtle...to me there is a slight hay and caramel taste. But I never had an issue with BE in flavored DIYs. Indeed it was what I, and many others, used for about a year. In some samples of RTS I get almost the same taste as BE, and in others not so much. BE also has more smell than WLR, but it is a tight sharp smell that is only detected close in...unlike the vintage 2010 MFS I have, which smells at a couple feet, and is more aromatic, solvent-like.
Yes...I'm replying to myself
Thanks to a generous offer from JUDGEMENT AFFIRMED, I'll get to find out the answer [to: is the nic made under RTS's new process as of 11/17 any different?] myself
Headed my way is a sample of RTS 100mg in PG from 12/28/12 in return for just my opinions about it. How cool is that!?? Thanks J.A.!! 
TY so much to Shilo too for offering to help me over my nic low. I've been making do with the GoodProphets nic and just mixing it a little weaker and it's good, but I'm always up for a good unflavored taste testing
thank you for the birthday wishes all
Kurt, I'm pretty pumped that those are YOUR titration curves! That's awesome!
Kurt, I'm pretty pumped that those are YOUR titration curves! That's awesome!
Yes...I'm replying to myself
Thanks to a generous offer from JUDGEMENT AFFIRMED, I'll get to find out the answer [to: is the nic made under RTS's new process as of 11/17 any different?] myself
TY so much to Shilo too for offering to help me over my nic low. I've been making do with the GoodProphets nic and just mixing it a little weaker and it's good, but I'm always up for a good unflavored taste testing
You are welcome-- I am sure you would do the same for one of us. I am very happy to hear this wolcen, thats nice of JA, and even though you picked his nic over mine
I won't pout too much--- just very happy you are getting some and look forward to hearing what you think on the new nic. Have one more late birthday wish from me!thank you for the birthday wishes all
Kurt, I'm pretty pumped that those are YOUR titration curves! That's awesome!
No worries, JA!
I might have said it once, during a time when that was the case. Sort of like food...sometimes you like pasta, sometimes you like baked chicken. Because of the work I do with the industry, I have a large variety of nics, and they all have their own place.I am trying an aging experiment with some of my Vermont Vapor 35 mg VG. Adam thins it with about 20% water, and pH adjusts to around 8 with citric acid. According to my brother, if you let it sit at room temp in a PE dropper bottle for weeks, it takes on an orange color (common) and a maple-tobacco flavor. This is most interesting to me, since he doesn't know that VV is known for their maple-tobacco flavored liquid (highly recommended BTW). So I broke a 50 mL bottle out of the freezer (stored from November 2009, somewhat yellowed since it is thinned already), transferred it to a couple 30 mL dropper bottles, and we shall see over the coming weeks how it evolves. If I don't like it, I know one person that treats it like gold now.
Yay! Wizard is back up.
stock is rolling out of WL *fast*. 60/100mg varieties are scarce, or already gone.
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