Nicotine Comparisons

[Keithhe]

Wow !! I was directed to this thread in question to a "good supplier" for nic base and just read this beginning to end. I'm surprised I can see the keyboard as I'm still a little blurry eyed.

First, I thank the horse and all the others who have posted here for a grand education on nic base and much......much.....much more. I think due to what I vape I will go with the WL nic base at 100Mg. I have only ever vaped vendor supplied at 18-24Mg at 50/50 and am fine with that, but would like to experiment up and down PG / VG just to see what results I get.

My question though is this: What are the pro's and cons of getting the nic in a VG or PG base? If I'm mixing anyway to any level (I know some here are vaping straight VG) either from a mixing point of view should work the same. So, are there storage implications (I want to buy a lot) or other things I have not considered??

Also, when buying in bulk, do you usually change to your glass containers and freeze, cut first and freeze or some other method?

Incidently, WL is out of the Ice and Ultra right now (which is what I would have preferred), so regular is my only choice here. I only vape fruits and bakery related, no tobacco, so I don't want any bite, pepper or taste from the nic and have no expectations I will be vaping flavorless.

Appreciate any thoughts from you folks.

Thanks

 

[Cool_Breeze]

One potential downside to full PG or VG base is that if you mix to ~24 ml, you will be 25% minimum of whichever base you use. That may not be a problem, but something to consider. I'm a PG sort of fellow, but 25% VG is okay for me. I think 'most' prefer to be towards the PG end of the scale if not in the middle.

I don't know if this will shed any new light for you, but I'll offer.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-liquid-discussion/237271-vg-pg-explained.html

 

[Stoneface]

Wow !! I was directed to this thread in question to a "good supplier" for nic base and just read this beginning to end. I'm surprised I can see the keyboard as I'm still a little blurry eyed.

First, I thank the horse and all the others who have posted here for a grand education on nic base and much......much.....much more. I think due to what I vape I will go with the WL nic base at 100Mg. I have only ever vaped vendor supplied at 18-24Mg at 50/50 and am fine with that, but would like to experiment up and down PG / VG just to see what results I get.

My question though is this: What are the pro's and cons of getting the nic in a VG or PG base? If I'm mixing anyway to any level (I know some here are vaping straight VG) either from a mixing point of view should work the same. So, are there storage implications (I want to buy a lot) or other things I have not considered??

Also, when buying in bulk, do you usually change to your glass containers and freeze, cut first and freeze or some other method?

Incidently, WL is out of the Ice and Ultra right now (which is what I would have preferred), so regular is my only choice here. I only vape fruits and bakery related, no tobacco, so I don't want any bite, pepper or taste from the nic and have no expectations I will be vaping flavorless.

Appreciate any thoughts from you folks.

Thanks

Okay, I am not an expert and I started DIY about a month ago...but I've read this and several other threads from beginning to end. With that said, I personally haven't been comfortable ordering the 100mg nic just because it is still new to me. I ordered 48mg and 60mg to start. I didn't even open the nic base until my glass bottles arrived, since I didn't want the nic to oxidize...and I personally did not dilute the nic, I would do that after unfreezing. I only then opened it to transfer to the CAREFULLY LABELED glass bottle. Once transferred, leave a bit of room in the neck of the bottle. I put 4 layers of plastic wrap (cut into circles) over the neck of the bottle and wrapped that tightly with a rubberband. Then, someone (I forget who now) suggested padding the bottles by putting them each in a sock, which is great. I personally ordered nic base in PG, and I vape 50/50, but I think in the end it is just preference.
Some recommend transferring the nic to smaller bottles (like 4oz), so that you only unfreeze/oxidize small amounts at a time instead of the larger amount that you purchased. I have done this with 2 of my larger orders because I have limited freezer space to devote to nic.
I hope this helps, I'm sure the more experienced will chime in here

 

[Keithhe]

Cool_Breeze

First, thanks for your chart I found way, way back in thread that helped me keep track of all the players. In fact, for many pages I had no idea who some of them even were in this. Everyone was just using the abreviations with no legend in the begining to reference to whom they were.
I looked at the other thread you linked and thanks. Concerns your comments above, not sure I understand what you mean? Given I have the target nic level dialed in to the calculator, and add all the the rest of the cells right, I should be able to get to any mg level I want. Isn't that correct? I mean if I cut the nic (say 100mg) in quantity Z x 4 I'm at 25% nic, or any other amount to get where I need to be. I actually expect to cut the 100 to about a third (33Mg) for use in menus/calculators I will try. Not sure why you think I'm stuck at 24MG?? Am I missing something?

Stoneface

Thanks as well for your input. I have no real fear of the 100MG nic at all, and will use all prudent safety precautions with it's handling while cutting to a more acceptable level. The quantities though and need for smaller amounts at any given time mean I will immediately have to move to more manageable glass bottles. I'm ordering the amber euro glasses with child proof lids I saw I think Kurt post in this thread. They should arrive far ahead of the WL which is not ordered yet, but they say 2 weeks just to process. I will then need to decide if it is better to cut while it's out moving in to smaller containers, or wait. (Reason being minimiz any exposures to air) I think I read that the more nic, and more concentrated, the more it is likely to discolor so perhaps best to do so right out of the mailbox? Not really sure on this and hope those that know might chime in.

I also think WL ships in plastic containers, so one way or another I will need to get this into glass.

Appreciate the information and all advise guys. Thanks !!!

 

[Stoneface]

Thanks as well for your input. I have no real fear of the 100MG nic at all, and will use all prudent safety precautions with it's handling while cutting to a more acceptable level. The quantities though and need for smaller amounts at any given time mean I will immediately have to move to more manageable glass bottles. I'm ordering the amber euro glasses with child proof lids I saw I think Kurt post in this thread. They should arrive far ahead of the WL which is not ordered yet, but they say 2 weeks just to process. I will then need to decide if it is better to cut while it's out moving in to smaller containers, or wait. (Reason being minimiz any exposures to air) I think I read that the more nic, and more concentrated, the more it is likely to discolor so perhaps best to do so right out of the mailbox? Not really sure on this and hope those that know might chime in.

I also think WL ships in plastic containers, so one way or another I will need to get this into glass.

Appreciate the information and all advise guys. Thanks !!!

WL ships in cobalt hard plastic (probably PET?) bottles. I've ordered from a couple of vendors, just to satisfy my own curiosity about quality. My experience is that they are all pretty well-sealed, at least for short term storage (ie: a month or so). I haven't seen any nic from any vendor oxidize in an unopened bottle for that amount of time. I don't know about 100mg nic oxidizing faster than, say, 48mg nic. I do hope an expert shows up eventually too, good question.

 

[Keithhe]

Yeah, they were all here for the hours it took me to read this end to end. Come back, we still have questions

 

[Bosco]

Maybe it has to do with terroir, type of tobacco, etc. Just like the same grape grown in a different climate can have a different nose, complexity, and taste. Probably all of these producers continue to source their tobacco's from the same growers they are able to maintain the same flavor profile over time.

I don't know about that . . . .what we're talking about here is lab-extracted nic. I have to speculate here because I haven't done this. .but I would bet that any difference between the alcohol distilled from a $100 bottle of wine and a $2 bottle of wine would have more to do with the extraction method than any differences in the grapes.

Even with hard alcohol like scotch, etc . .there is still a number of factors influencing the final product - the barrel it ages in, the water used to thin it, etc. And distilling scotch in a pot still is not the same thing as doing it in a lab.

The nic we buy is 99% pure nic. What's in that other 1%? Who knows . .but when we're talking about it being further diluted to finished e-juice, that 1% becomes just a fraction of a percent of the finished e liquid. Yet - there is a big difference between nic bases. Puzzled.

 

[Keithhe]

WL ships in cobalt hard plastic (probably PET?) bottles. I've ordered from a couple of vendors, just to satisfy my own curiosity about quality. My experience is that they are all pretty well-sealed, at least for short term storage (ie: a month or so). I haven't seen any nic from any vendor oxidize in an unopened bottle for that amount of time. I don't know about 100mg nic oxidizing faster than, say, 48mg nic. I do hope an expert shows up eventually too, good question.

Stone,

By the way did you order bottle from here? Green European Dropper Bottles - More Info

I'm trying to figure out how many and which sizes to get right now.

 

[Stoneface]

Stone,

By the way did you order bottle from here? Green European Dropper Bottles - More Info

I'm trying to figure out how many and which sizes to get right now.

Same company, but I bought 4oz ambers. I didn't even look at the green ones, they're kind of cool. I have heard that cobalt is better for light, but I don't have to worry too much about getting too much light in my place.

 

[Keithhe]

Oh,

I had moved pages to the green when I grabbed the link, but think I'm actually getting the amber as well. This will be mostly in the freezer which as far as I know is pretty dark. Never actually crawled in to see if light goes out, but I think it does.

 

[Stoneface]

Oh,

I had moved pages to the green when I grabbed the link, but think I'm actually getting the amber as well. This will be mostly in the freezer which as far as I know is pretty dark. Never actually crawled in to see if light goes out, but I think it does.

LOL, you mean you didn't try it?? I just meant I mix DIY in my kitchen, which has no windows...so not too much extra light to worry about.

 

[Keithhe]

I've never been all that freaked out about the light that hits my bottles of anything. I don't leave it in direct sunlight, but don't do what some here do to keep their juice living the vampire lives they do. I seriously have visions of people in blacked out tents with black curtains dealing with their juices and I refuse to do that. But I do sing to it when it is getting down, usually indicated by cloudy or darker juice. Seems to pick it right up. Nothing weird mind you.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Cool_Breeze

First, thanks for your chart I found way, way back in thread that helped me keep track of all the players. In fact, for many pages I had no idea who some of them even were in this. Everyone was just using the abreviations with no legend in the begining to reference to whom they were.
I looked at the other thread you linked and thanks. Concerns your comments above, not sure I understand what you mean? Given I have the target nic level dialed in to the calculator, and add all the the rest of the cells right, I should be able to get to any mg level I want. Isn't that correct? I mean if I cut the nic (say 100mg) in quantity Z x 4 I'm at 25% nic, or any other amount to get where I need to be. I actually expect to cut the 100 to about a third (33Mg) for use in menus/calculators I will try. Not sure why you think I'm stuck at 24MG?? Am I missing something?

Not missing much I think. You had mentioned you vape at 24 mg and 18 mg. I took 24 for an example. If your purchased 100 mg in a VG base and mixed it with PG to obtain 24 mg, you would have at least 24% VG in the final mix. You wouldn't be able to test a PG mix above 75 PG / 25ish VG. ...wouldn't be able to get a 80 / 20 or 90 /10 or 100% PG. That may be rather academic in scope. If mixing for 18 mg/ml with 100 mg/ml VG base, you could go to 82 PG / 18 VG.

If you purchased half your order for 100 mg/ml PG and half at 100 mg/ml VG, you could have a little more flexibility or the possibility of 100% of either...so long as your a just experimenting. If you don't figure on having more than 75% of either in a mix (at 24 mg) it would make no difference.

Good luck with whatever you do!

 

[Keithhe]

Cool_Breeze

OK now I see what you were saying and thank you for the detailed explaination. I doubt i will ever be at 100% on either end of the scale, but have been happy enough in the middle. If I will alter much, I expect that it would be in favor of more PG. Only reason being I suspect that I could coax more flavor out of juices. I really could care less about "massive clouds" of vapor, or really hard TH. My throat does already get a little sore sometimes from some of my vendor stuff which is why I really want to get best component parts of the mix I can, then experiemnt for best for me in terms of ratio PG/VG. Perhaps it's not 50/50 and might be better at 60/40 or 70/30/ Really not sure yet.

I do appreciate your explanation and leads me to think I will indeed buy PG and VG base nic in equal amounts, at least for now. Thanks again !!

 

[wolcen]

Refer also to post 839 in this thread.

I've had the two on hand (WL Ice and RTS) for well over a month now.

I'll continue to buy from WL for personal reasons, but in terms of clarity, th, flavor - so far, I consider them pretty darn near equivalent. This is a far cry from the RTS I originally purchased well over a year ago in VG (these are both PG) - and again I'm very surprised no one has noted a clear difference in the newer batches, leading me again to think I received an unusual batch previously. I do know that RTS has had two suppliers and even they say there is a noted difference between them - why they would not stick to whichever this came from only is beyond me. Last I heard (probably a month ago now) they were also considering a possible purchase of one of the labs, so maybe this all has changed again. I haven't really been on ECF for about a month, so I've some catching up to do.

In any case, and this is coming from someone who is not a big supporter RTS, but based on the RTS nic I received from Judgment Affirmed (no lot number, but he received them 12-28-12): to my taste buds - so far*, I call this a tie. I do think there is actually a subtle difference, but the bottom line to me is this: I have tried numerous times to pick out which is which in a blind taste test, and so far I cannot do so with any level of accuracy. It's just too hard testing them back to back for me. Now, by "so far", I mean this was testing on a modified (for dripping) CE9 w/Kanthal & cotton @ 1.5ohm / 5V. I'm going to mix fresh batches of 30mg (or maybe 24mg - 30mg is too much for me now I think) to try again. Today I received a mini-RDA and with the stock coil/wick, I feel I'm getting much better flavor than I was on the CE9. If I can finally *regularly* pick out one from the other, I'll certainly update with that. I only had several drops of each left in my test batches but I get the sense I might be able to finally nail them down.

It will be interesting to hear what Cyrus Vap thinks anyways. He clearly seems to have a knack for this sort of testing and I know he's got the equipment he knows how to get the best flavor from already. I sent him about 30ml of this same nic. Unless he has finally moved, this should reach him first thing next week. Of course for any review from him, you now have to trust a longer chain of custody: Judgment Affirmed [someone that has had a pretty clear openness/lack of bias in my opinion and has even pointed out an unfair statement of my own] and myself. Hopefully those who have seen us both around can vouch for us. I think so anyway but you may have your doubts - I dunno. Only fair to let it be known what's up either way.

I did try some titrations finally, and I had a nice "Homer moment": when I did the WL nic, I was like "uh oh... maybe I did something wrong? That's WAY too little 0.1N H2SO4... oh, right - that's 60MG not 100MG" (DOH!)

I used the calculator on WL's site to do the math for the MG levels. All were 1ml samples and I got the following:

Vendor: mls H2SO4 added/ Result (Labeled MG)
RTS: 6.2 / 100.6mg (100)
WL: 3.62 / 58.7mg (60)
GP: 2.13 / 34.6mg (36)

Honestly, I thought that WL may be a little low, or the others would be high, but they are pretty spot-on. The GP (Good Prophets) - I really thought was going to be higher than normal - this stuff has SERIOUS BITE (it is well aged)! My reasoning for thinking the WL might be low (or the RTS high) is that the RTS for whatever reason seems to have slightly more "effect" or "buzz". The slight variances are most likely my not so great testing equipment. Also of note: I've had no further headaches, which I had originally suspected *may* have been from RTS. These appear to have been from the pumpkin flavoring I used in one of the early RTS mixes.

Enjoy folks

 

[Stoneface]

Refer also to post 839 in this thread.

I've had the two on hand (WL Ice and RTS) for well over a month now.
...brevity....
Enjoy folks

Welcome back. Thanks for posting this, it's thorough as always. I have used the information in this thread when buying nic for DIY and storage.

 

[Shilo]

Glad to see you back here wolcen and thanks for stating your updated opinions. Cyrus has been MIA as well and yes he has an incredible knack for this stuff as well as being my favorite horse so hopefully he will get back here one of these days too.

Meanwhile even though I won't need to buy for quite awhile its nice to see people still adding to this thread and getting up to date info and opinions.

 

[Jimi D.]

I'm really enjoying the WL regular nic today. It's really smooth, but has a nice th. So in the future, WL will be my choice, no matter what they have at that moment.

 

[billherbst]

I've been using Wizard Labs Regular liq nic for the past year. 100mg/ml, 50/50 PG/VG. I like it better than any of the other brands I tried in my early DIY days: XtremeVaping, VoidMist (now defunct), BoxElder (back in business), and GoodProphets.

John's pricing at WL is remarkably inexpensive for such high-quality liquid nic (not to criticize any vendor, but how does XtremeVaping get away with charging triple what Wizard Labs does???). The timing of my stock replenishment caused me to miss out on the ICE formulation, but that's OK. I appreciate the solid throat hit of Regular.

Given wolcen's review, I might even try some RTS when they next have a sale. Until then, however, Wizard gets all my business.

 

[r77r7r]

I'm really enjoying the WL regular nic today. It's really smooth, but has a nice th. So in the future, WL will be my choice, no matter what they have at that moment.

Very much agreed, Jimi. With no flavoring, it reminds me exactly like when I used to be able to afford exotic European cigarettes.